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Hey boys (and girls? ) got another question for you all:

For a while now I have been working on my SoB army and to step it up to 3k I want to add 9 Penitent Engines (yeah I know, point and laugh!)... my thoughts on making them less vulnerable was to walk them up behind some Rhinos, with the intention of blocking line of sight to them.  I plan on scratch-building all 9 engines btw, that's the sort of thing I "do"

So I've talked to the staff at my local GW about this a couple of times, and to other players as well, including tournament caliber ones.  They all seem to agree that the Rhinos will in fact block line of sight to the Penitent Engines, because both vehicles are classified as level 3.  All that is, except one gentleman, who insists that line of sight in this scenario would simply require you to draw a direct line from the model shooting to the 'Engine to be able to shoot at it.  He says this has come up before in a tournament and he had to play it that way.

My rebuttal to that notion is- what then is there to prevent someone from simply converting their Penitent Engines to a height short enough to be eclipsed by the Rhinos? And to take it to the extreme, what then is there to prevent someone from (and yes this is extreeeme) placing a large plywood beam on top of their rhino to block line of sight to everything behind it? (Assuming they're able to argue it's part of the model, but you get the point )

Anyway I would love to hear the opinions of everyone here on how this scenario should be approached!

Thanks in advance!

<3

This has been covered numerous times on the forums. You should be able ti find countless threads on the subject. To put it bluntly, they don't have a clue what they're talking about. You use 'true' line of sight. It's been that way for all of 4th edition and all of 3rd edition as well. Size classifications are used for seeing over an intervening close combat and Area Terrain only.

Posted By Mr. Bombadidaloo on 11/08/2007 11:26 PM

And to take it to the extreme, what then is there to prevent someone from (and yes this is extreeeme) placing a large plywood beam on top of their rhino to block line of sight to everything behind it?

Heed Yak's first rule of wargaming: you can use modeling to your advantage, you can use modeling to your advantage, you can use modeling to your advantage.

 

I'd suggest reading my article attached in the thread linked here:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/CommunityForums/tabid/56/view/topic/forumid/15/postid/185970/Default.aspx

 

Hopefully it will answer all your qeustions regarding this issue (or maybe not). Either way let me know. And if you do model your Penitent Engines small enough to hide behind Rhinos, make sure you take pictures and send 'em to me so I can include them in the article.

 

 

 

Hey thanks guys, especially yak for that interesting article.

I suppose I am originally of the "2D/Magic Cylinder" school of thought, but I don't think a Monolith should be able to hide behind an ork buggy, so my feelings are mixed now.

I think I'll have to settle for dealing with it the way most people here seem to approve of- direct model's eye LoS. I'm not one to attempt to use modeling in such a sinister way to my advantage (I was speaking hypothetically with my counterpoint examples, honest!), I'm more of a "rules as intended" kinda guy, though interpreting what exactly was intended is pretty hard sometimes So I'll probably make my Penitent Engines sizes akin to regular onces and settle with the fact that they'll at least count as obscured targets behind my Rhinos..........right?

Break out the main rulebook and read page 20

LOS and vehicles is true LOS and you can alway draw true LOS "over or past them" .

In this case a normal penitent engine model  is much taler than a rhino and hence true LOS can be dawn over or past the rhino to shoot at the penitent.

 

PS penitents almost never make it into CC. in fact most sisters CC units aside from seraphim suck.

 

Posted By mughi3 on 11/09/2007 3:56 AM

PS penitents almost never make it into CC. in fact most sisters CC units aside from seraphim suck.

 

All the more reason to play SoB ^^

Would the penitant engine then get to take a hull down roll?

Posted By mughi3 on 11/09/2007 3:56 AM

break out the main rulebook and read page 20

LOS and vehicles is true LOS and you can alway draw true LOS "over or past them" .

in this case a normal penitent engine model  is much taler than a rhino and hence true LOS can be dawn over or past the rhino to shoot at the penitent.

 

PS penitents almost never make it into CC. in fact most sisters CC units aside from seraphim suck.

 

Or break out the page where it says that when determining LOS the Model's Size Level is all that matters.....

There is a reason for the conflict between true LOS and magic cylinder, and it isn't inability to read. I think the OP should let the organizers make the dicision and not let one guy ruin everyone else's party.

Posted By Mr. Bombadidaloo on 11/09/2007 2:56 AM
Hey thanks guys, especially yak for that interesting article.

I suppose I am originally of the "2D/Magic Cylinder" school of thought, but I don't think a Monolith should be able to hide behind an ork buggy, so my feelings are mixed now.

 

The monolith is certainly wider than the buggy right? You can always shoot around.

Which page would that be?

That would be page 7 and a half. You find it by turning your rulebook on its side and slamming your head against it...

Page 7 mentions that the size categories are the only categories that are important when determining LOS (which is true).

It never says that the size categories are all that matters.

Posted By Lemartes on 11/09/2007 8:22 AM
Would the penitant engine then get to take a hull down roll?

Since the rhino would in fact be blocking some but not all of the line of sight to the engine, yes, you would get a hull down roll.

As long as 50%+ of the engine is obscured, then it would be considered hull down.

i love you guys <3

Posted By yakface on 11/09/2007 12:24 AM

 I'd suggest reading my article attached in the thread linked here:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/CommunityForums/tabid/56/view/topic/forumid/15/postid/185970/Default.aspx

 Yak, that's a hell of an article.  Good job.

 

Posted By Mr. Bombadidaloo on 11/09/2007 6:41 AM

Posted By mughi3 on 11/09/2007 3:56 AM

PS penitents almost never make it into CC. in fact most sisters CC units aside from seraphim suck.

 

All the more reason to play SoB ^^

My wife plays sisters and its all shooty, all mobile and all mechanized.

 

I knew a guy who one started out with a CC themed sisters force and then when he realised that it  didn't work because his units either never made it to CC or were uncontrolable because of thier rage......he ended up selling all his repentia, archos and penitents and bought himself more battle sisters with rhinos and exorcists.....and now it works.

mughi3 wrote:

Posted By Mr. Bombadidaloo on 11/09/2007 6:41 AM

Posted By mughi3 on 11/09/2007 3:56 AM

PS penitents almost never make it into CC. in fact most sisters CC units aside from seraphim suck.

 

All the more reason to play SoB ^^

My wife plays sisters and its all shooty, all mobile and all mechanized.

 

I knew a guy who one started out with a CC themed sisters force and then when he realised that it  didn't work because his units either never made it to CC or were uncontrolable because of thier rage......he ended up selling all his repentia, archos and penitents and bought himself more battle sisters with rhinos and exorcists.....and now it works.

that's unfortunate... i guess he doesn't like a challenge

Mr. Bombadidaloo wrote:

mughi3 wrote:

Posted By Mr. Bombadidaloo on 11/09/2007 6:41 AM

Posted By mughi3 on 11/09/2007 3:56 AM

PS penitents almost never make it into CC. in fact most sisters CC units aside from seraphim suck.

 

All the more reason to play SoB ^^

My wife plays sisters and its all shooty, all mobile and all mechanized.

 

I knew a guy who one started out with a CC themed sisters force and then when he realised that it  didn't work because his units either never made it to CC or were uncontrolable because of thier rage......he ended up selling all his repentia, archos and penitents and bought himself more battle sisters with rhinos and exorcists.....and now it works.

that's unfortunate... i guess he doesn't like a challenge

There's challenge - and then there's futility. Playing a stealer shock is a challenge. Playing with penitent engines, arco-flagellants, and sisters repentia is just an exercise in doing nothing.

Centurian99 wrote:There's challenge - and then there's futility. Playing a stealer shock is a challenge. Playing with penitent engines, arco-flagellants, and sisters repentia is just an exercise in doing nothing.

Then I guess my success with nine penitent engines will be the undoing of you

Battles are won with more than just unit statistics.

Mr. Bombadidaloo wrote:
Battles are won with more than just unit statistics.

True.

But you're not paraphrasing the whole rule:

"Good army selection doesn't necessarily win games, but poor army selection can almost definitely lose games"

I don't know, my penitents often make it into melee, though usually just the one. Granted, I have Exorcists to draw fire too, and usually have to hide the Penitents as best as I can to get that effect, but they sort of work. Not being open topped, or AV12 would go a long way though.

Centurian99 wrote:

Mr. Bombadidaloo wrote:
Battles are won with more than just unit statistics.

True.

But you're not paraphrasing the whole rule:

"Good army selection doesn't necessarily win games, but poor army selection can almost definitely lose games"

True.

But you're not paraphrasing the whole rule:

"Good army selection doesn't necessarily win games, but poor army selection can almost definitely lose games. Oh, and penitent engines are super cool totally awesome, seriously. Turtle Power!"

<3

p.s. Captain planet, he's our hero, gonna take pollution down to zerooo!!!

I always wondered how rigourously they were defining "pollution" if that was their plan. I mean, really, does a stringent definition then require a complete reversal of entropy to keep every substance pure? Perhaps the plan was to completely eradicate all human life, the "Planeteers" being a front organization for ELF?

Ma-Ti, saddly I did remember it, but had to look up the spelling

insaniak wrote:That would be page 7 and a half. You find it by turning your rulebook on its side and slamming your head against it...

Page 7 mentions that the size categories are the only categories that are important when determining LOS (which is true).

It never says that the size categories are all that matters.

Actually page 7 defines the height (by size level) and notes that the model's literal height cannot be used. Therefore you have one height for the model, the size level.

Page 20 does indeed say that you can see over or past a vehicle and a wreck, and to do so you would use the size level heights for shooting over as that is the only height the model is defined as having. You do use the model's eye view to see past them, this would be off to the side as over was stated separately in the line before. It does not say you use model's eye view to see over them.

Being a smart ass does not make you right.

Same crap, different thread. Blah blah blah.

The size category vs. actual model profile bit has been going on forever; no-one's right until it gets FAQed or we change editions (and even then, I'll bet you that they use the same loose terminology). Just find out how your local group plays it, and go with that. All of this is just going round and round with the same page quotes that say the same nothing they did already. If it actually said what people say it says, there wouldn't be this debate.

snooggums wrote:

insaniak wrote:That would be page 7 and a half. You find it by turning your rulebook on its side and slamming your head against it...

Page 7 mentions that the size categories are the only categories that are important when determining LOS (which is true).

It never says that the size categories are all that matters.

Actually page 7 defines the height (by size level) and notes that the model's literal height cannot be used. Therefore you have one height for the model, the size level.

Page 20 does indeed say that you can see over or past a vehicle and a wreck, and to do so you would use the size level heights for shooting over as that is the only height the model is defined as having. You do use the model's eye view to see past them, this would be off to the side as over was stated separately in the line before. It does not say you use model's eye view to see over them.

Being a smart ass does not make you right.

Somebody break out the rusty spoons. Smartass enough for you?

Snooggums is continuing to tilt at windmills here. You gotta give him credit - at least he's consistent.

Come to think of it, people who play his way would probably explain why people consistently underrate Guard. Mechanized guard is one of the strongest builds out there, but it relies on the ability of tanks to shoot over and past other tanks.

I still don't see, however, how anyone in the magic cylinder club can honestly believe that "Be aware though, that when you want to see over some terrain features or an ongoing close combat, these heights will become relevant." doesn't make size categories irrelevant in other situations.

snooggums wrote:Actually page 7 defines the height (by size level) and notes that the model's literal height cannot be used.

...and then goes on to say that this is only relevant in certain situations...

Page 20 does indeed say that you can see over or past a vehicle and a wreck, and to do so you would use the size level heights for shooting over as that is the only height the model is defined as having.

...or you would, if not for the fact that nothing can see over a Size 3 model, which would render the statement that LOS can be drawn over a vehicle false...

You do use the model's eye view to see past them, this would be off to the side as over was stated separately in the line before. It does not say you use model's eye view to see over them.

'Past' does not mean 'beside'

The fact that the rules contain redundant wording doesn't suddenly change the meaning of common English words. If you can see over something, you can see past it.