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So this came up in an Apoc game yesterday regarding superheavies and Size 3 area terrain. The rulebook defines Size 3 as really tall things like trees and buildings, but it doesn't say really how tall a tree is. An ork player had a Stompa about 10" tall behind a wood and on the other side of the board was a Baneblade wishing to target the Stompa. Could the woods completely hide the Stompa? Is Size 3 (in non-cityfight games) infinitely tall? Are Stompas, Titans, and Gargants really Size 4?

Thanks,

Ozymandias, King of Kings

Good luck. No one has a good answer past "WYSIWYG", which of course doesn't work for trees usually.

As far as APOC goes, I think you pretty much have to just agree with your opponent ahead of time. I don't have the book yet, but I haven't heard that they made any kind of rule for this type of thing in it.

My understanding is that trees have always been infinitely high for purposes of LoS.

They're genetically modified mutant trees with oversized egoes who think they can actually reach the sun. There's your logical explanation! <3

Hard and fast? The tree only blocks line of sight to what it actually covers. Give the stompa an 'obscured' bonus and let fly. Model buildings would be the same, unless you are stating "this ruined building is actually a 55 story tall office building"

Although, players before hand should decide how tall is tall.

Since Stompas and other titans aren't usually used in regular 40K, people will actually have to think about things like this before the game begins. "Is that 3" tall tree really a 45 foot tall spruce? Or is it just a sapling with enough cover to hide a SM behind?"

Laserbait wrote:Hard and fast? The tree only blocks line of sight to what it actually covers.

If you're playing the trees as Area Terrain (as would be the usual case, and as was mentioned in the original post) this is incorrect.

Forests would generally be Size 3. And as there is nothing bigger than Size 3, LOS to anything on the other side of it is indeed blocked.


If that bothers you, and you're using superheavies on a regular basis, I would recommend adding a 'Size 4' for particularly tall models and terrain features as a house rule.

Yeah - I fell for that in the Gladiator at AdeptiCon. A size three house blocked LOS to a titan. The second a titan is placed on the board, I now switch to WYSWIG.

Ok, that's pretty much the conclusion we came to as well. Since this is for Apoc games, I guess House Rules will have to come into play.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

When dealing with models/terrain of equal size class (size 3 model behind size 3 terrain), you go by the terrain's profile. For forests, you count it as being as tall as the tallest tree.

I don't know if it's in the rules anywhere, but that's the standard I've played by for a while now. Infinitely-high trees is a cop-out for those who want to make their large models immune to their own downsides.

lord_sutekh wrote:I don't know if it's in the rules anywhere,

It's not.

Area Terrain does not use the actual model for LOS purposes. Ever.

To see something behind a piece of Area Terrain, either the firer or the target must be a greater Size category than the terrain. Since nothing is bigger than Size 3, nothing can see or be seen behind Size 3 terrain.


Your rule would be a perfectly acceptable house rule, (although I'm personally not a fan of it given that tree models are rarely anywhere near the size that they should be) but it's most definitely not the way the regular rules work.

ok... i have to reply to this one.
average height of a coniferous forest @90 years is 19.5m
average height of a deciduouse forest @ 60 years is 24 m
average height of a coniferouse forest @500 years is 55m
average height of the trees covering some 75% of the amazon as estimated by satelight is 30m.
all of these factors depend on the soil type, tree type and age of the stand of trees in the forest.

Sorry, was all of that supposed to have something to do with the actual topic?

Hmmmm. Who knows Insaniak, only him I guess.

As far as Terrain, LOS and Titans/SHV are concerned, I can see why there is confusion, and most likely a proliferation of 'House Rules' will be instigated. A thread recently dealt with this(sorry-no link) and the only viable option, until GW decide otherwise for us, is to clearly lay out rules for the terrain on the board(where Apoc. is involved anyway) before the first dice-roll.

Until we see a WD article that specifically deals with this issue(Or an updated GW FAQ-good luck) I think the best solution is sort it out B4 the game.

it sort of does. since the argument seems to revolve around weather or not a stompa could see and be seen over a stand of trees, tree height would be of some bearing on the outcome of the argument. though we dont know what the height of a stompa is, we can only infer the height from the measure of 10" that the original poster mentioned. a figure that is 28mm scale should be 28 mm high. and if you figured a average figure represented a 6 ft high individual, then by that logic the stompa was roughly supposed to be 60 ft or 20m high. so depending on the type of forest the gamers involved were trying tp represent, then either .5m of stompa was showing or it was hidden by a margine of anywhere from 4 to 35m. in any case the rules state that you have to be able to see more than a minor part of the vehicle, antennae etc. so... by those measures i sited and those given by Ozymandias, i would have to say that the stompa would not be an eligible target if seen over a stand of level 3 trees.

sennacherib wrote: since the argument seems to revolve around weather or not a stompa could see and be seen over a stand of trees, tree height would be of some bearing on the outcome of the argument.

The actual height of the trees, in a system that treats a truck as the same height as a stompa, is completely irrelevant.

So far as the rules are concerned, the stompa and the Area Terrain in front of it are the same height, regardless of what sort of trees the forest is supposed to represent.

It's only if you're looking at adding in house rules to add extra Size categories that the actual trees in question might make a difference.

"Intent" vs RAW.
"it sort of does. since the argument seems to revolve around weather or not a stompa could see and be seen over a stand of trees, tree height would be of some bearing on the outcome of the argument"-sennacherib

Sorry mate, i just can't see it.(Must be a size 3 discussion!)

i totally agree with everything you, akira and insaniak have said on the matter. as far as my games are concerned you cannot see over area 3 terrain, period. RAW explicitly states this. the only reason i had anything to say about tree height <which is irrelevant because of RAW> was because some people reason that the actual LOS or the actual height of the model on the table have real import on the situation. either way, as i have already said, RAW keeps everything nice and clear. otherwise, situations involving monoliths and other large models would come up constantly.

according to APOC. you should use "true line of sight" considering super heavies.

widgren wrote:according to APOC. you should use "true line of sight" considering super heavies.

...except for Area Terrain.

The same paragraph that says to use true LOS says that the normal rules for Area Terrain still apply.