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So I'm in the midst of putting together a Black Templar army. If I were to make a standard marine army, I'd throw in a couple 6-marine las/plas squads.
But what is best for BT, considering you can pad a squad with cheap(er) neophytes?

And while I'm at it, what are the best places to implement neophytes in general. Making large foot-slogging 20-man squads for CC? In a LR? other?

I don't think you can improve on the usual 6 man Las/Plas. Majority armor save makes it so you'll be pulling 3+s first, and Neophytes aren't that much cheaper.

Las/Plas squads really don't work well in a BT army. The army suffers from target priority checks and also you have to give up your PF to take a heavy weapon (thus reducing the close combat strength of your squads). So if you are going to include shooty squads, I'd recommend a 6 man squad with Missile launcher. They are only 109pts. don't really hurt you if you lose them. The weird thing with minimum shooty squads in BT armies is that they don't points out right since they are 16pts. If you are going with shooty crusader units, you will almost be forced to take a marshal. The marshal isn't a bad buy, but a chaplain is better. Normally most templar armies get their shooting from their heavy support and possibly their elite units.

With large foot crusader squads some BT players like the 20 man squads so you can get the movement bonus faster since neophytes are the first to die. However, I prefer squads that have more power armor, so they can take the fire a little longer. Using cover is important though.

Capt K

I don't have a SM codex in front of me...how do they have more trouble with target priority?
Plus, I wouldn't expect to put a PF in a 6 man las/plas squad.

I will be taking a Marshall regardless (partially because I love the figure I have for it )

I will be taking a predator. But in my experience, Heavy support Las cannon platforms draw more fire than ANYTHING. I'd like a couple less conspicuous units that can take advantage of cover. When I play IG against marines, at least I think las/plas squads are lower priority than a predator, Dread, bikes, or assault squads.


Also, If I took ONE 20-man squad in tandem with, say, assault marines or another fast unit in my army, is THAT viable? Or are large 20-man squads more effective if you take 2 or 3 of them? I really don't want a huge number of infantry in my army considering I already have IG.

In the BT codex, there's a rule that gives all BT models a -1 penalty to target priority checks. If you really need anti-tank, they're still good because they get LD7 base, LD9 with a marshall, and they can always choose to shoot the closest large target.

One thing to consider is that the basic 6-man las/plas assumes that the opponent will be encroaching on the marines, which is true for most SAFH marine armies. If you're only dropping a few small shooty squads in a mostly HtH oriented BT army, that's far less of a worry. The point I'm trying to make is that you might be better off with small, simple 5 man squads with a lascannon. If your big squads are on foot, they're going to suffer far more shooting.

a 95 pt squad, or two for that matter, can be a good balance to some big footslogging or mechanized squads.

Polonius is correct. However, the only drawback is that it almost forces you to take a marshal (when a chaplain is way better). If you have the marshal model and are willing to use it, great. I still maintain that there are other ways of getting the anti tank in your list. My current templars list focuses on mobile shooting units rather than static units. It has worked with great success. I am currently experimenting with more assault marines.

Capt K

Polonius wrote:In the BT codex, there's a rule that gives all BT models a -1 penalty to target priority checks. If you really need anti-tank, they're still good because they get LD7 base, LD9 with a marshall, and they can always choose to shoot the closest large target.

One thing to consider is that the basic 6-man las/plas assumes that the opponent will be encroaching on the marines, which is true for most SAFH marine armies. If you're only dropping a few small shooty squads in a mostly HtH oriented BT army, that's far less of a worry. The point I'm trying to make is that you might be better off with small, simple 5 man squads with a lascannon. If your big squads are on foot, they're going to suffer far more shooting.

a 95 pt squad, or two for that matter, can be a good balance to some big footslogging or mechanized squads.

I will be taking a predator. But in my experience, Heavy support Las cannon platforms draw more fire than ANYTHING. I'd like a couple less conspicuous units that can take advantage of cover. When I play IG against marines, at least I think las/plas squads are lower priority than a predator, Dread, bikes, or assault squads.

If you are taking a predator, in my experience, I have found that the Annihilator w/ HB sponsons compliments the Templars perfectly. But I recommend more than one. Vindicators are nice too.

Capt K

As a long time BT player, I've had a lot of success with 6 man las/plas squads going all the way back to third edition. The advice you've been given is still good, I just play an atypical BT army. I usually make my squads with four guys with bolt pistol and close combat weapon, lascannon, and plasmagun. Thanks to the BT reduced point cost for the plasma gun, this unit only costs 117 points. A typical 6 man las/plas costs 115, so we're only up two points. In exchange for that we are -1 leadership, fearless in close combat, benefit from vows, and have more attacks. I just worked out the math, and this squad is actually better in combat than 2 space marine las/plas squads. This doesn't make them godly by any stretch, but I have found it can give my opponent's pause.

A lot of the templar's strength comes from their average joe with 2 weapons and the vows. 4 las/plas space marine squads will make a tempting target for any assault unit. Not so much if they are Black Templars. Although I'm mixing purposes, I find it works because it doesn't cost many points, retains most of its strengths, and makes my shooty squads even more resilient. I minimize the leadership knock by going after large targets with the lascannon (their intended role). I use preds and vindicators as Capt K suggests to hit infantry and avoid the target priority test.

Black Templars take a lot of flack for being weaker than regular marines, but a shooty BT list can be almost as powerful, if just a little different in flavor. The simple way to make them is to take the Mauleed Marine Predator archetype, take out the librarian, add a Emperor's Champion and enjoy. I've been doing it since third edition when Black Templars came out, and it works really well.

Cheers

Black Templars take a lot of flack for being weaker than regular marines, but a shooty BT list can be almost as powerful, if just a little different in flavor. The simple way to make them is to take the Mauleed Marine Predator archetype, take out the librarian, add a Emperor's Champion and enjoy. I've been doing it since third edition when Black Templars came out, and it works really well.

But then why don't you just use the Standard Marines codex at that point? Loads of Las/Plas squads does not a Templar army make. Vows, Chaplains, and larger "mob" configs for templars is their strengths. Play to those and you should do fine.

Capt K

One thing I have noticed with a lot of Templar players out there is that they put to many extra and useless items into their BT army. As Ebon stated you need to have some long range fire support or you will be in trouble when you play against an army that has a lot of monstrous creatures that can take the one or two melta shots that are common in a BT list and then tie up that unit until the more deadly combat troops come in and wipe that unit out.


For a BT army to be successful it needs to have a strong fire base of 6man (all initiate) Las/Plas Squads (3 is a good number), 2 Predators, and 2 Speeders. The rest can be filled with combat troops. Also to rule out bike squads as a possibility. Having highly mobile counter charge or anti heavy infantry unit will come in handy.

That is true. But for Templars, your fire base should be focused on mobile shooting units and not static units. Remember, that it is very easy to get to eliminate 6 man squads...especially BT squads since they will run at you, giving up any cover they may have been in. You end up picking off any long range threats, while the mobs walk...in essence you are picking off the threats one at a time...while the mobs walk. Once the static elements are eliminated, it is easy to remove the mobs. Additionally, taking static shoot units almost forces you to take a Marshal. Most of the time it is better to take a chaplain.

Capt K

CaptKaruthors wrote:But then why don't you just use the Standard Marines codex at that point? Loads of Las/Plas squads does not a Templar army make. Vows, Chaplains, and larger "mob" configs for templars is their strengths. Play to those and you should do fine.

I tried using the Standard Marine codex in a league one time, and it just didn't seem to work. The squads I was using needed the BT buffs to be effective.

Just to be clear, I think you are right Capt K. Archetypal BT armies are pretty effective with their big mobs and charging across the table. Only because the original poster asked specifically about 6 man las/plas in a BT army did I decide to speak up. My army is the odd man out, and I like it that way. A shooty BT army tends to confuse the piss out of my opponents (Should I charge him? Should I retreat? What should I do? Oh crap, I'm dead.) and I try to exploit that confusion to my advantage. That dynamic also makes the game more interesting for me than the standard Space Marine SAFH would play.

Agree with Capt K.

I like to run 2 20 man squads led by chaplains

I also take 3 pred's

The rest goes into Droppodding Marines or whatever