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in a couple of weeks ill be playing in my local club turnament
we will be playing 2000 pts games and ill be playing with my csm army
now the problem arises with one of my opponants who plays sisters

most of the players in my club play 3+ save armys and this sisters army is
built to destroy power armour

i havent beaten him yet and his getting kinda cocky so any help would be apriciated
you can see my army list in the section for this

ty all ( sry for my bad english)

Well, it helps to know what the SoB player typically fields.

The key, however, in general, is to BEAT the SoB's into submission. With S3 and T3, they fall over in HtH.

Arcoflagellants & Sisters Repentia should be shot at without mercy until they are wiped out.
Try not to engage these in HtH.

Nurgle is a good choice against Sisters.
They're T5 and, if you take Deathguard troop choices, you get Feel no Pain, as well.

As much as I dislike bikes in the new codex, they might not be a bad idea to close fast (Nurgle Icon gives them a T6! or Tzeentch gives them a 5+ Invulnerable save or a 2+ Invulnerable on Turbo Boosts).

A couple of Daemon Princes are hot. Dual Lash Slaaneshi Daemon Princes will allow you to move his units where you want/need them.

Typhus is disgustingly expensive but, in HtH, SoB's have NOTHING that can stand up to him. He's 4+d6 attacks per round at Initiative 5 (IIRC the initiative)!!!!

Abbadon's tough.

Ahriman is a spellcasting MACHINE!

Predators are important, as are FULL SIZE spuads of Obliterators.
I'd do 2 Oblit squads, one Predator (all las), take a 4 man unit of Terminators & put them in a Land Raider (if you have the points).
This gives you, essentially, 4 Heavy choices and a LOT of Lascannons on the field!

Hope this helps.

Eric

P.S. Didn't know where to find your list. Maybe a link would help.

What does he use? Is it the standard melta + HF Rhino rush with 'phim and triple Exo, or something more unorthodox?

ops should have made a link http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/205143.page

he ussally fields

Inquisitor with 4 heavy bolter servitors

1xCanoness

1x vindicare

a bunch of sisters in rhinos something like 10 to 20 there abouts never can tell what they are (all look the same)

Seraphim 8 i think

1xImmolator

and 2 of thos musik missile thing

he ussally shoot at me while ill run at him and then he "act of faith" me into oblivion
at the glans this army looks to be nothin but then he dos the faith thing and boom everything dies ill give and example
last year i played Death guard (when there was more to it then a paint job) my termi lord assaults rolls a six with the manreaper
at this moment i can already hear the b**** screaming and then BOOM act of faith 3+inv I6 and S5 now what the hell am i to do

The solution is not to move towards him. Make him come to you instead; closing with SoBs does half the job for them. You have one autocannon, one missile launcher (why is this not a las, BTW?), two squad lascannons, and the weapons on the LR and Pred. He has two Exorcists. . . and that's it. Just do your best to hide your tanks, Termies and DP on the first turn and make sure to shakelock his Exos. Use the rest of your firepower to take out Rhinos, ensuring that the Sisters get to you piecemeal.

Also, check his 'dex. You can't stack the +S and +I Acts.

but dosnt the exo's give him the ability to shoot my thanks without Los
that is what i though and thats my main reason for rushing at him for the fear of getting missile rain form the exo's

so ur saying the acts dont stack can he do more acts pr turn and that way get all the benefit

Exos are direct fire. They're not Whirlwinds!

You can use any combination of Acts on one unit BUT the rules for the +I Act clearly state that it can't benefit a model using the +S Act. For more details, go read the codex.

Thx tegeus with this help and the demand to see the dex ill surely win

Another thing that you may have to "remind" your opponent of is the acts of faith are used at the beginning of the phase. So if they want the 3+ I saves in the shooting phase, they need to roll for it before you declare any of your shooting. If they want it in the assault phase, they have to declare it before you declare any charges. Now this doesn't mean you can just scream "I charge" and start moving your models and then go "Ohh, its too late for you to use your acts. HAHAH!". It does mean that at the beginning of these phases, you can ask if he would like to use any acts, let him roll for any that he wants to, and then avoid (or not) the units that successfully got acts off that round. It makes a huge difference for deciding what to shoot at. In hand to hand it is less of an issue but still important.

Other than that, moving towards a sisters army is a bad bad plan. They excell at close up work and suck at range. Sit back with your las cannons, auto cannons, and whatever else you have and eliminate the exceorcists quickly. After that, its all down hill from there as they try to cross the board in av11 tanks. Then once they get there, they have to deal with chaos hand to hand units. Not a prety picture for the sisters.

Some good calls up there, t-C.
I would say to target those Exorcists first, though... d6 S8, AP1 shots can wreak havoc on anything, even a Land Raider!


Some army thoughts:

Daemon Prince: lash, wings, Slaanesh

Nice. Very good.
Wings are a necessity on DP's.

5xterminators: Slaanesh, 1chain fist, reaper

Why Slaanesh? Why not Nurgle.
The I boost isn't NEARLY as good as the T boost.
Of course, it's 50 points compared to... I don't know what the Slaanesh icon is off hand... but I know it's less.
Nurgle is still a better choice.
It makes them tougher to wound IN ADDITION to their 2+ armor.
If you make 'em Tzeentch, you get a 4+ Invul save. better than +1Init, in my book.

9xmarines: 2meltaguns, champ, Pw, slaanesh

What's your reason for going Slaanesh?

Land raider

You should contemplate taking this as a transport for your Termies. It'll free up a Heavy slot.
Also... Demon Possess it, if possible.

Vindicator

It's good when it manages not to scatter into oblivion (or your own models).
Short range, though... I'd say to make it a Predator.

10xmarines: champ, slaanesh, Pw, 2meltaguns

Again with the Slaanesh! LOL

6xmarines: lascannon
6xmarines: missile launcher
6xmarines: missile launcher

Why Missile launchers?
Just curious.

18xplague marines: champ, Pw, 2meltagun

Wow!
18?
Really?

Why not 2 squads of 9, with 2 P-Fists? At T5, they're fairly hearty!

Predator: all lascannon, extra armour

Mmmm. Daddy Like.

Sorcerer: warptime, slaanesh

I would Make him a Daemon Prince with Lash... If you don't have the model, then make his power into a Lash... and give him wings or a Jump pack.


It seems as if you took a bunch of Slaaneshi units so that you could strike first in HtH (or simultaneous with the faster armies). It's a valid strategy, IMO... but those faster armies are also WEAKER (barring Space Marine HQ's). A higher T value will serve you even better (S3 Sisters or Eldar will only wound on a 6)

You need to take dual lashes if you expect to face the Vindicare. His Exitus is nasty.
If, however, you LASH him out of his hiding place and into the open, then assault him... he's in trouble.
Try to keep your HQ's behind cover as much as possible until you can get them into HtH.

It seems as if the 3 units of 6 marines are there for the bodies, more than anything.

I think you need some Obliterators. If you have them, field them.
They're the most flexible heavy in the army (even though I HATE their T4). Ditch the Vindicator to get them, if you must.


All those Melta's won't do you that good if you're going to stand & shoot... and, without Rhino's, you'll get the stuffing shot out of you.
IMO, ditch the Meltas entirely and scrounge some extra points to get Rhinos.
With a Las, 2 ML's, Oblits, a Predator and a Land Raider, you have enough heavy weapons to offset it.

On that 18 strong Nurgle unit... make it 2 units @ 8 and use those points to buy the extra P-Fist & add more Nurgle Icons to the army.

Those are MY thoughts, anyway.



Also... as t-C has said.... KNOW YOUR ENEMY.

Spend a few hours at the shop reading the SoB codex (if it's a GW store, they have a Store Copy). Buy it if you can.
Learn your opponents so that you know their limitations and weak points.


...and, for God's sake... do NOT close into HtH with Arcoflagellants or Sisters Repentia if you can avoid it!



Eric

Some good calls up there, t-C.
I would say to target those Exorcists first, though... d6 S8, AP1 shots can wreak havoc on anything, even a Land Raider!

That's why I say to shakelock them, i.e. direct your first shots of the turn at them, but switch targets once they've been shaken. The Land Raider and Pred should be able to do this on their own. It's more productive for the rest of the army to take out Rhinos, as the difference between one squad arriving at your lines every turn and three squads arriving on the same turn is simply huge.

tegeus-Cromis wrote:That's why I say to shakelock them, i.e. direct your first shots of the turn at them, but switch targets once they've been shaken. The Land Raider and Pred should be able to do this on their own. It's more productive for the rest of the army to take out Rhinos, as the difference between one squad arriving at your lines every turn and three squads arriving on the same turn is simply huge.

Absolutely.
I do agree with that... but I want to stress to the OP... Those exorcists are priority 1.
If One of your units fails to take them out of commission for the turn, you need to hit 'em again, if you have something that can.


Also, I came across a link that the OP might find helpful:

http://us.games-workshop.com/games/40k/gaming/reference_sheets/refsheets.htm

It's a link to the reference sheets for each army. Each reference sheet has the complete stat line for each unit type in 40K.
The Witch Hunter one even tells what each power does. It also stresses their limitations (the ones that can't be used together) and tells what part of the turn the power may be used in. Don't let the guy use them in the wrong phases.

Good luck!


Eric

@Magickalmemories

ok ill creep to the cross....i like striking first....im bad i know

5xterminators: Slaanesh, 1chain fist, reaper


Why Slaanesh? Why not Nurgle.
The I boost isn't NEARLY as good as the T boost.
Of course, it's 50 points compared to... I don't know what the Slaanesh icon is off hand... but I know it's less.
Nurgle is still a better choice.
It makes them tougher to wound IN ADDITION to their 2+ armor.

i have a Death guard army so i have fully converted plague terminators they are rock hard and i love them
if i can get them in ill try

Land raider


You should contemplate taking this as a transport for your Termies. It'll free up a Heavy slot.
Also... Demon Possess it, if possible.

can it transport terminators if it's possessed

the Vindicator is because i have the model and i was planing to use it with the lash for max potenial im kinda good with a scatter dice

the missile launchers there was two reasons i got an idea for some convertions and their cheaper then the lascannon now i might take one squad out
and give the other a lascannon

18xplague marines: champ, Pw, 2meltagun



Wow!
18?
Really?

Why not 2 squads of 9, with 2 P-Fists? At T5, they're fairly hearty!

well i made my list and thought ow thats a lovly list then i found out that there was 7 troop choices crap
so then i said why dont i put the plague marines into one big squad people already hate them because they dont die
so i thought i would be a fear factor on the table maybe make people focus on that unit and leave the rest of the army alone for a bit

the sorcerer i was told in the army list section should be changed to lash and i was gonna go with that and maybe put him with some raptors

i have two obliterators but the T4 thing kinda put them on the shelf
im gonna split up the plague marines

and thx for the reference sheet got it printed out its gonna help alot now he cant cheat thx

....i like striking first....im bad i know

LOL

I thought you were going to say that.

can it transport terminators if it's possessed

It can now.
A LOT of the old rules are no longer thre, when it comes to Chaos.

Did you realize:

Daemon Prince is NOT an IC.
Greater Daemons can claim.
You can mix icons in your army from Gods that used to have a natural hatred for each other
Possessed Vehicles can now hold troops (assuming they had troop capacity to begin with)
Possession lowers your vehicle's BS to 3.
You no longer have to choose a model to be possessed by the demon ahead of time. When the greater Demon becomes available, he can take over any allowable target.
Lash movement does not have to be in a straight line.


Just some points to ponder (some you seem to already know).

the Vindicator is because i have the model and i was planing to use it with the lash for max potenial im kinda good with a scatter dice

IMO, you need to use the lash to focus on getting your units into HtH.
Units out in the open die from bullets.

the missile launchers there was two reasons i got an idea for some convertions and their cheaper then the lascannon now i might take one squad out
and give the other a lascannon

"Because it looks cool" is never a good reason to make an army/unit decision.

LOL

(I made that mistake years ago and bought TOO MUCH Daemonhunters stuff for that reason).

so i thought i would be a fear factor on the table maybe make people focus on that unit and leave the rest of the army alone for a bit

Well, at 50 points for the Icon, you're definitely getting your points worth there. Here's the problem, though...
You're almost NEVER going to get a cover save on a unit that big. If you DO, you're going to have to bunch them together fairly close... Which is where blast, ordnance & template weapons come into play.

You crowd that unit together on a table with me, and you're just ASKING for a full sized unit (or 2) of obliterators to NAIL them with some Plas Cannons. I'll need 3's to hit, 2's to wound and you'd better HOPE those trees are dense, because you don't get your armor save... and I scoff at your "Feel No Pain!"
LOL

Seriously, though... that is ONE expensive target.
Your decision to split them in half was a good one.

i have two obliterators but the T4 thing kinda put them on the shelf

Why? It doesn't stop you from playing Terminators... or Slaaneshi units.

I understand your frustration. A Lascannon shot kills one outright, now. I'm seriously disappointed by their drop in T. I don't think it was warranted and I think it's overboard, considering the unit selection change, price change, & weapons change that are piled along with it (though I DO like their new weapons). The thing is, though... they're SO versatile. You can snipe tanks, units of hard-to-kill infantry (like Nurgle), they have A2 and a Powerfist.
IMO, though, they're wasted if you don't max out squad size (3).


I'd say you're getting in the vicinity of the right area, now.

You might consider dropping your Troops selection to 5, adding the LR to the Termies as a transport and taking those 2 Oblits as a heavy choice. If you're that worried about their fragility, find a nice centralized area of 4+ cover, and keep them there. Use them as shooty, only.

Good luck.

Eric

Against the vindicare...

I would take all cult troops if you can. Noise marines with sonic blasters and blastmasters, Or hell, since you already play deathguard, your plaguemarine units can take 2 special weapons without having to be 10 strong.

You don't want the vindicare picking off your icons, and cult troops don't ever lose their mark.

Maybe make one of the squads chosen to infiltrate next to him and get stuck in CC. Khorne would be good to up your attacks a bit.

As for the Oblits and Termies, I would say deepstrike them, and then you don't have to worry about them getting shot right away, and they will most likey show up in a good spot (with an Icon as a homer) to wreak havok.

EDIT:

Plasmacannons don't ignore Feel no Pain. A shooting weapon has to inflict Instant Death to cancel Feel No Pain.

Plasmacannons don't ignore Feel no Pain. A shooting weapon has to inflict Instant Death to cancel Feel No Pain.

Well, I don't have my codex handy but, if the PlasCannon does a wound, and has an AP of lower than your Armor... Doesn't that count?

I believe it does... and you're the first person I've ever heard say that it doesn't.

You don't want the vindicare picking off your icons, and cult troops don't ever lose their mark.

Again, I'd have to check my codex, but Ifind it hard to swallow that the unit loses the bonus just because the Icon bearer died. Icons aren't like heavy weapons. technically, anyone could turn around and pick it up. it doesn't require any special equipment to carry it.

As for the Oblits and Termies, I would say deepstrike them, and then you don't have to worry about them getting shot right away, and they will most likey show up in a good spot (with an Icon as a homer) to wreak havok.

I have mixed emotions about this idea.
I mean... I've ALWAYS loved Deepstriking. There's just something awesome about the ability to put walking tanks wherever you want them. Now that the Icon works like a teleport homer, that's all the better.
The problem I have with it is in the fact that they're stuck out in the open.

If you can put them someplace where they're able to assault immediately, that's great. Otherwise, I fear AP2 and better weaponry.

Also, since this is a RTT, there's probably going to be a preset scenario for each round. In my expereince, they don't typically allow Deepstriking. It's good to be prepared for anything, to the best extent that you can.


Eric

I'm not sure how effective the lash will be against sisters. First off, you have to be moderagely close to them for it to work and they rock at close range killing. Second they get saves vs psi powers, so your lash is going to bounce off them ocasionaly.

Phoenix wrote:I'm not sure how effective the lash will be against sisters. First off, you have to be moderagely close to them for it to work and they rock at close range killing. Second they get saves vs psi powers, so your lash is going to bounce off them ocasionaly.

Saves vs. Psy powers?
I don't recall that. I'll have to look it up tonight.

Is there a special unit or ability they have to use (i.e. faith point)?

Barring said save, the lash has a 24" range. That isn't very close, at all.

Presuming you start 24" away from a unit, and have 2 lashes (let's ignore that save, for the time being), you can fly up 12" and Lash them up to 12" closer to you. Then, you can lash them with the second unit that flew in, moving them up to 12" more.

With half way decent rolls, you've got a turn 1 charge on your hands.

You ARE right about their close range shooting ability, though. They're definitely a 12 to 24" army.

...which is why I prefer turn 2 combat on them (turn 1, you fly up & lash 2 big shooter units AWAY from you 2d6"). On turn 2, you have enough units closer to them to do some harm.


Eric

MagickalMemories wrote:

Plasmacannons don't ignore Feel no Pain. A shooting weapon has to inflict Instant Death to cancel Feel No Pain.

Well, I don't have my codex handy but, if the PlasCannon does a wound, and has an AP of lower than your Armor... Doesn't that count?

I believe it does... and you're the first person I've ever heard say that it doesn't.

FnP only doesn't work vs weapons that ignore saves in close combat. At range, it doesn't matter. Thus you get FnP vs plasma.

You don't want the vindicare picking off your icons, and cult troops don't ever lose their mark.

Again, I'd have to check my codex, but Ifind it hard to swallow that the unit loses the bonus just because the Icon bearer died. Icons aren't like heavy weapons. technically, anyone could turn around and pick it up. it doesn't require any special equipment to carry it.

You lose the icon, you lose the bonus.

The Sisters' save vs. psychic powers is free and always on. This is something else you need to ask him to show you in his 'dex.

You lose the icon, you lose the bonus.

Can you quote me a page #? I looked & couldn't find that in the codex anywhere.

Eric

Page 81.

'If the Icon Bearer is killed, all effects of the icon are lost'.

Actually...

Page 81 says "FZORGLE!" WE TOOK THE BEST PARTS OF THE CODEX OUT WHILE YOU WEREN'T LOOKING!

Joke's on you! But have some new teminators and possessed.

Sincerely GW

skyth wrote:Page 81.

'If the Icon Bearer is killed, all effects of the icon are lost'.

I looked it up tonight, when I got my hands on the codex...
You're right.

Of course, you already knew that... I'm just the kind of guy who is willing to admit when he's wrong or someone else is right, so I said it.
I'll just have to model the Icon on my champ, then.
It says ONE model in the unit, but doesn't specify which model it has to be.


Of course, you were right on the FnP, as well. All this time, we've misread it. We were including the AP factor in the "Instant Death" rule for models with one wound.


Eric

whitedragon wrote:Actually...

Page 81 says "FZORGLE!" WE TOOK THE BEST PARTS OF THE CODEX OUT WHILE YOU WEREN'T LOOKING!

Joke's on you! But have some new teminators and possessed.

Sincerely GW

WD... I'd love to know why you don't like the codex.
I disagree with anyone that says they were nerfed.
They weren't, IMO.
Many things were made LESS TOUGH, but the army as a whole was put on a more balanced and even keel so that it is easier to build a viable and balanced army, IMO.


Eric

Let's not go there, MM. Just go look at HBMC's review thread, or any of the numerous Chaos 'dex discussions that cropped up in its wake. There's nothing new to be said at this point.

Anyway, I'm not so sure that putting the Icon on the champ is such a great idea. Losing your champ and your Icon in a single Mind War, Vindicare shot (not so common) or failed Torrent save really sucks.

MagickalMemories wrote:

Plasmacannons don't ignore Feel no Pain. A shooting weapon has to inflict Instant Death to cancel Feel No Pain.

Well, I don't have my codex handy but, if the PlasCannon does a wound, and has an AP of lower than your Armor... Doesn't that count?

I believe it does... and you're the first person I've ever heard say that it doesn't.

To keep something from getting a feel no pain roll, you have to meet one of two requirements.

1) Cause instant death. This would be from using a weapon that is double the targets toughness or one that specificaly states that it causes instant death in its special rules.

2) Use a weapon in hand to hand that does not allow the target to get an armor save. The key here is that this one only functions in hand to hand.

So plasma cannons, which do not cause instant death and are not used in hand to hand at all do not remove feel no pain from plague marines.