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Hey guys, my freind usually runs with 3 serpents a prism and a falcon backed by avatar and wraithlord
the list also has 10 banshees, 10 dire avengers, 10 fire dragons in the serpents, and a unit of 10 guardians with starcannon platform.

I usually run..
chaplain grimaldus
EC with Accept any challenge vow
venerable dreadnought in pod with AC/HF and tank hunter
2x 16 man crusader squads PF/Plasma gun
1x 10 man crusader squad with las plas
1x 8 man assualt squad with PF/ two flamers
2x Land speeder tornados
2x Pred annhilators

Any suggestions would be appreciated.
Thanks

Since your friend's list sucks, it should be easy. Just focus on getting enough long range antitank to kill the serpents on the quick, then he should be no threat.

That should be doable for you. I think your problem lies more in picking the wrong targets and deploying poorly - I would suggest strategic/tactical advice rather than modifying your list a lot.

If he had cargo in the falcon he'd be dangerous

I assume he runs it in two groups,

first, a foot group with Avatar, guardians and wraithlord and second, a mounted group with the waveserpents and fire prism.
The waveserpents are far more maneuverable then anything you have, but still must wait a turn to assault with his banshees. The shooting from the DAs and Dragons is more problematic.

Focus fire your preds on one waveserpent a turn. Keep your infantry together. Use your Land Speeders and dread to harry his Avatar, wraithlord and guardians. Probably Avatar first, guardians and then wraithlord. Without fearlessness, the guardians will run. The wraithlord has a 1/6 chance of not doing anything each turn, and only two attacks in cc, so it isn't as big a threat as the starcannon or the avatar.
Use your Plasma guns on the closer targets.

The eldar player must keep his serpents together and hit isolated units in order to avoid getting pinned down in assault. If you can break up that formation and separate the units from their transports they are near useless, and then you can pound them in assault.

I agree, mostly. Just one thing:

Focus fire your preds on one waveserpent a turn.

What ever for? Unless your first Pred happens to blow off both the Serpent's weapons, making subsequent shots much more likely to achieve the immobilised/destroyed result you're looking for, I see no reason to focus fire. Better to spread it out, since each roll on the damage table is equally likely to take out the vehicle regardless of whether you've shot at the vehicle already or not (barring a weapon-less Serpent, as mentioned earlier).

Well, I for one would shoot everything I had at the one with fire dragons in it, if I had two predators and a venerable dread in my list.

Banshees would be a second priority I think, since my antitank is necessary for the game and banshees will get murdered by crusader squads (after gutting one of them).

Ah, true. I somehow missed the huge FD unit in the list.

I have seen these two lists go at it about 7-8 times now and the problem is, even though concentrated fire from the preds works they usually only last 1 turn. And once the predators are gone the army's anti tank firepower is virtually gone so the eldar player is able to outmanouver the large templar block units.

You cannot rely on preds for AT power in Black templars, sadly.

This is what I'd do at 2000 points.

It's very very annoying.

5 Lascannons on Marines, 9 Meltaguns in 3 Biker squads, and 60 assault marines egged on by a LD10 Marshal.

Hope that helps. Oh, and that vow I gave is there so you wound Eldar on 3+, and make the Avatar and Wraithlord retreat from your BT units. Really, seen it happen. It's funny.

=================================

2000 Pts - Black Templars Roster - Black Templars

1 Marshal @ 251 Pts
Storm Bolter; Crusader Seals; Command Squad; Suffer Not The Unclean To Live
1 Crusader Seals @ [0] Pts
5 Command Squad @ [166] Pts
Bolter (x3); Lascannon (x2); Suffer Not The Unclean To Live
1 Sergeant @ [16] Pts
Bolter; Suffer Not The Unclean To Live

1 Emperor's Champion @ 125 Pts
Frag Grenades; Bolt Pistol; The Black Sword; Crusader Seals; Suffer Not The Unclean To Live
1 The Black Sword @ [0] Pts
1 Armor of Faith @ [0] Pts
1 Crusader Seals @ [0] Pts

10 Crusader Squad @ 305 Pts
Bolt Pistol (x9); Close Combat Weapon (x8); Meltagun; Power Fist; Crusader Seals; Neophytes; Suffer Not The Unclean To Live
10 Neophytes @ [100] Pts
Bolt Pistol & CCW (x10)

10 Crusader Squad @ 305 Pts
Bolt Pistol (x9); Close Combat Weapon (x8); Meltagun; Power Fist; Crusader Seals; Neophytes; Suffer Not The Unclean To Live
10 Neophytes @ [100] Pts
Bolt Pistol & CCW (x10)

10 Crusader Squad @ 305 Pts
Bolt Pistol (x9); Close Combat Weapon (x8); Meltagun; Power Fist; Crusader Seals; Neophytes; Suffer Not The Unclean To Live
10 Neophytes @ [100] Pts
Bolt Pistol & CCW (x10)

5 Sword Brethren Squad @ 110 Pts
Bolter (x4); Lascannon; Infiltrate; Suffer Not The Unclean To Live

5 Sword Brethren Squad @ 110 Pts
Bolter (x4); Lascannon; Infiltrate; Suffer Not The Unclean To Live

5 Sword Brethren Squad @ 110 Pts
Bolter (x4); Lascannon; Infiltrate; Suffer Not The Unclean To Live

3 Black Templar Bike Squadron @ 126 Pts
Frag Grenades; Twin Linked Bolter (x3); Meltagun (x3); Suffer Not The Unclean To Live

3 Black Templar Bike Squadron @ 126 Pts
Frag Grenades; Twin Linked Bolter (x3); Meltagun (x3); Suffer Not The Unclean To Live

3 Black Templar Bike Squadron @ 126 Pts
Frag Grenades; Twin Linked Bolter (x3); Meltagun (x3); Suffer Not The Unclean To Live

Total Roster Cost: 1999

One problem with your plan though Longshot...

He doesn't have to tell you which squad is in which Wave Serpent, making your focus fire a game of russian roulette.

To the OP...

The best way I've found to deal with Eldar skimmers is to follow a target priority rule: There are 3 targets.

Target 1 - Targets that are a serious threat, but you can do nothing about. (ie Falcons and Fire Prisms) With the standard load out, you have a 1:36 chance to destroy them. That is an unachievable number in a 6 turn game, even for IG and their copious amounts of heavy weapons. It just isn't realistic that you will take them down.

Target 2 - Targets that are a serious threat that you CAN do something about. (ie Serpents, Banshees, Fire Dragons) While Serpents are nothing to scoff at, they are much easier to take down than their cousins in the heavy support slots. they just require some focus firing.

Target 3 - Targets that pose absolutely no threat at the current moment. (ie units that are out of range) No need to even fire at these buggers until they become a threat, or you have spare firepower to spend.

I focus on Target 2, by picking out one or two units that are the largest threat to me. If they can get into close combat in the following turn, or are in dangerous transports, I focus fire on them. Due to natural shooting lanes on the table it is usually hard to focus all your fire onto one target. I find that if you can focus your firepower on, at most, two targets you will do fine.

Any spare heavy firepower that I have, after achieving desired results on the primary targets I spend on Target 1. Your goal here is not to destroy, but to disable. If you can get a shaken result on a Fire Prism, or a Falcon without troops aboard, then you have done all you can realistically expect to do in a 6 turn game. Your goal here is to keep them disabled as often as they show their faces.

If I have achieved this then I turn my remaining firepower to Target 2, then Target 3. Anything you have left over that can hurt Target 2 needs to be shot at them. Anything that is left over that is too weak or out of range of Target 2 can be fucused on Target 3.

All of this, obviously, assumes that you have adequate anti tank and counter assault in your force. The list above my post is a pretty good example of one way to build such a list.

You will find that focusing in this manner, if you have a good turn of shooting, can seriously affect your opponents morale. You may not destroy a unit outright, but disabling half an army, or taking a few casualties in their back up squads can really force them to rethink their battle plans. If his Banshees are supposed to, in a following turn, support his Fire Dragons or Avatar in a counter assault, and you have depleted his Banshee squad to the point that it no longer holds the punch it once possesed, your opponent might not counter charge in with them if you put a scary unit of your own into that hand to hand.

You end up playing a mental war as well as a physical war. It is no different than targetting your opponent's brand new model, that he just painted and is so proud of, first to demoralize him. The most important lesson I had to learn, from fighting Eldar, is that you don't have to get a "Destroyed" result on every vehicle or annihilate every squad. If you keep them from doing their assigned job, whether that be by "Shaken" results or tying up your opponents heavy weapons in hand to hand, then you are doing your job.
Sometimes you have to let a target go and focus on a larger threat.

Kej wrote:One problem with your plan though Longshot...

He doesn't have to tell you which squad is in which Wave Serpent, making your focus fire a game of russian roulette.

Sigh. Yes, he does. You don't get to just say 'I deployed something, your turn' in 40K. I might not know what's in your squad, but I know when you deployed it and where.

I don't share your pessimism on taking down Holo-field vehicles, I do it all the time. I know, I know, it's my fixed dice.

The rest of your post, nicely said.

Thank you Stelek...

I do stick by my previous post stating that they don't have to tell you what is in what. All they have to tell you is if it is a troop choice, elite choice, or HQ choice. They don't have to specifically state which unit. Therefore, if he has 2 elite squads, both in Wave Serpents, you won't know which is in which exactly...just that the elites are there.

As far as my pessimisim goes for Skimmers, it is well founded in my club lol. We have two Eldar players that play their lists mech heavy. My Orks have been mopped clean off the table more times than I can count lol. I came to the conclusion that sometimes you have to let something big go to achieve a greater victory lol. We have a Marine player that has your luck with dice and never seems to have my problems though

When you deploy a unit, in friendly games or in GW tournaments, you are required to tell your opponent what is what.

If you're talking about unfriendly games, why play at all?

I don't get it when people talk about RAW and sticking it to their opponent, then tell me it isn't in a friendly game or a GW tournament so they can do it...I mean really, how many grudge matches do you play?

lol I'd just not play if someone tried to pull that crap in a so-called friendly game.

No grudge matches Most of our games are "friendly" games. We don't tell what is in each transport as there is no way the opposing army would know beyond a shadow of a doubt what is in there until it hops out with its guns pointed at you.

We tell each other if it is a Troop, Elite, HQ, etc though. We don't shaft each other by anymeans.

I'll have to find where we got that house rule from. It is based of of something somewhere.

@Stelek, "A note on secrecy, Your opponent cannot normally inspect your army roster, including asking you what is in each transport vehicle. PLayers are, however free to share this information if they so wish." page 81 BGB.

Darrian

Yeah, but when you deploy you need to say I'm deploying something.

Even if it is identical to something else, in GW tournaments you *must* tell your opponents which choice just got deployed.

In friendly games, you don't hide what is what. It's not friendly.

In addition if you do not tell your opponent which squad is in which transport you could easily switch to whichever squad you want. And last I checked THAT WOULD BE CHEATING!!! So that is why GW *REQUIRES* that you tell your opponent which squad is in which transport.

Blackguard, Have you actually read what GW has written regarding this issue? Can I refer you to page 81 of the BGB?

I play in alot of RTT's and I always inform my opponent of what is in what transport because that is good sportsmanship, but it is NOT required.

Darrian

Sorry, RTT's aren't GW events.

GT's are.

In GT's, if you try to play the 'teleport the unit I want to the transport I want' game, you get told to stop it.

I've played 3 jackasses who tried it in 3 different GT's, and they didn't get away with it.

In RTT's I run, you wouldn't get away with that nonsense.

Cheating is cheating is cheating. Got nothing to do with being a "good sport", darrian. One poorly written 'rule as written' doesn't take away from the fact GW frowns upon cheating or even the impression of possible cheating might happen someday.

It's a no no. Don't gloss over the fact it's being a git with some rules lawyering nonsense, guys.

Stelek, you may wish to note that the 2007 USGT rules did not require you to reveal what unit was in what transport.

http://gt.us.games-workshop.com/Rules/assets/2007GT40kRules.pdf

It does depend on the rules of the given event.

The core rulebook does say that you don't have to tell your opponent. However, given that this makes it easier for cheaters, many tournaments DO require the information to be revealed.

That's not to say that ALL do.

Switching what unit is in what transport mid-game is certainly cheating. But many legitimate and honest players DO play with hidden lists, and consider it more fun. Many of these folks may also play Warhammer Fantasy, in which hidden lists is almost always the expectation.

I've met several players who model their vehicles and squads such that it's obvious once you see the units. For example, visibly numbering each transport with a squad number corresponding to the markings on the squad's models. Or putting different markings on the back hatch of their transports, which again correspond to particular squads, so that it's easy for an opponent to verify which squad is associated with which transport after the fact, without revealing it ahead of time.

At every GT this year, judges were enforcing the 'you must say what unit is going into what transport'.

I asked multiple judges AND players who attended, and did not just rely on my own experience.

I never said it didn't depend on the rules of the event, but I don't consider RTT's "events". Small, fun, and with lots of house rules that differ from tournament to tournament.

GT's generally don't follow that pattern. I am only talking about GT's.

Warhammer fantasy? Yes, that's how that game plays. It also has magic and items that force you to show me what you have in your list--40K doesn't. So what..?

You are correct in many players, including myself, number the squads to the transports.

I've unfortunately run into the people who DO try to get one over, and I'll never ever agree that the 'hide-and-seek' in 40K is ever a good thing.

It's like the old Chaos trick of keeping 18 bloodletters under the table without telling your opponent about them.

Dishonesty must be stopped whenever possible IN THE RULES. One bad apple, they say...

Stelek, GTs enforce a great number of house rules, and rightfully so. Putting aside the question of what GT events require, do you acknowledge that there is no such requirement in the rules themselves, or in any official FAQ or errata? As for the possibility of cheating, I've mentioned the "squad names stuck under/in the physical transport" solution a number of times on another thread. Any chance you might do a better job of not blatantly ignoring it this time?

I'm not 'blatantly' ignoring it. I read it.

What, you want me to recognize what most players do with common sense?

Fine, you came up with the common sense solution everyone else did.

I never said it wasn't in the rules.

I'll be clear.

You can be a raging prick to anyone you want to in the 40K rules.

Will you get 'friendly' games? No, by definition you won't.

Will you be allowed to be a raging prick at tournaments? No, you won't.

SO WHY ARE WE HAVING THIS DISCUSSION?? For the grudge matches??

Come on, be serious. Anyone tries to teleport their units around by telling me it's "in the rules" is being a raging prick, and won't get a game at a FLGS once word gets out their trying to abuse the rules to gain unfair advantage.

Do YOU play this way?

If not, would YOU play against someone who did this?

Beyond the first game, mind you.

Once again, why are we discussing a hypothetical that never happens and ENCOURAGES people to think dakka is full of rules lawyering RPs willing to do anything to win?

I can't find a good answer other than people WANT to be able to cheat, and are pissed I'd call them on their baloney.

I didn't even come up with the solution; it's widely known and freely available. The point is that you persist in talking as if the only alternative to declaring everything is to allow cheaters free rein. This commonsense solution shows that it is clearly not the case. There is no "teleporting around" involved. Once a unit is deployed into a transport, it's stuck there; my opponent just won't know what it is until it disembarks or is forced to. There is no possibilty of cheating.

And yes, I actually play like this, and ask that my opponents do to. If they would rather declare everything, I'm cool with that too, and will happily agree to it as a house rule.

You need to play 3 card monte.

No possibility of cheating. lol I had not one but TWO weenies swap units on me and I only figured it out when I looked at the model and saw the SW and sarges were swapped.

I'm paranoid having been cheated on in every tournament I've ever attended.

But because the vehicle had the squad it contained noted on it, and you were able to check the squad's contents against what it said on the army list, this was easy to spot, right?

How would it have helped at all if your opponent had declared what was in what from the beginning, by the way?

No, I noticed the arms on squad I said II on 3 guys, and vice versa. His plasmas ended on my terminators, and his meltas on my predators instead of vice versa.

If he'd told me his meltagun squad was in the transport across the board from my predators, I'd have known something was cooked when his 'plasma' squad got out with meltas instead!

WYSIWYG, after all, has it's place. Since I couldn't look at his army list without a judge intervening, no I really couldn't verify a bloody thing. However I did cry BULLSHEET and the judges had a very long meeting about giving my opponent the old heave ho or not.

Isn't that a different method of tracking than the one I've been referring to, then? I'm talking a bit of paper under the tank that says "Tac Squad 1 [where 1 corresponds with a notation on the army list], 2 meltas", to be revealed when the squad disembarks. I don't see how this example of cheating has anything to do with my claim that it is possible to maintain secrecy and still rule out cheating.

Let's get this thread back on topic, folks. It's wandered quite far afield.

If you want to hash out the debate about declaring/not declaring what's in a transport, I encourage you to start a thread in You Make Da Call.

Thanks!

Well, Kej summarized it nicely.
Serpents should be the main target. If they have no vectored engines, they go down with an average chance of 1/3 on a roll of D6 at the glancing table.

Moreover, if a Serpent comes close so that next turn you have to fear that it unloads the Banshees, then take a Speeder to block the exit hatch. The Serpent can't be turned around before moving. Thus the Banshees can't disembark.

Quick solution to squad-swapping: write the designation of the unit (corresponding to your roster) on a piece of paper. Stick the paper inside the handy-dandy opening transport hatches, or tape it to the underside or something. When deploying (or bailing after a penetrating hit, etc.), show the paper and place the squad. If you swapped rosters before, problem solved. if playing with secrecy, swap them after the game.