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I am kicking around the idea of creating a new army and converting it to be an Adeptus Mechanicus army. My concern is that I want to be able to bring this to tournaments and I am wondering how the dakka community feels about "Counts As".

Does it cause too many hassles during game play?

Do you look at it as glorified proxying?

Is "Counts As" just a way to get around WYSIWYG?

Thanks
Brave Rifles

I think a lot of it depends on how similar your counts as thing is to the unit it's proxying. I sometimes will proxy a melta-gun as a plasma-gun. Sometimes I also proxy a speeder with Multi-Melta and Heavy Flamer as a speeder with Heavy Bolter and Assault Cannon. These look close enough to what they're proxying that I don't feel bad for doing it.

Where I think problems with proxying occur are when the units that are proxied don't look at all like what they're representing. I remember having no-fun what so ever playing a gainst a Nid player whose gaunts were DE, and whose carnifexes, hive tyrants were bases. It's especially frustrating if the proxied army you're facing is one you're not familiar with. I had never played a Nid army before this game and I still didn't feel like I knew what the hell had happened once it was over.

I feel that proxying in tournaments should be acceptable if the unit is the appropriate size and on the same base. But, I really think you should try to proxy something that looks pretty darn close to what it's representing. One time a tournament I was in allowed for proxied models. A kid borught in a crudely tourn peice of cardboard and said it was his monolith. To add insult to injury, this kid was in 2nd place going into the final round (he ended dup finishing 4th). The last game he was in was against a superbly painted, well displayed BA army. It just looked silly to see a flat piece of card board firing its arc-flux.

@lifeater -- You're confusing proxying with "counts as." Your opponent CLEARLY proxied. That's annoying.

What Brave... is saying is that he wants to create a themed army and, since there are no rules for that army, use the list of another army (using an IG list but painting them as traitors and using "counts as" to use the IG rules is an example).

That is not, in my book, glorified proxying. IMO, there's no such thing as glorified proxying. I don't think you CAN glorify it. LOL

I wouldn't have a problem playing against it or having it in a tourney I was playing or running with one caveat... Your army list was provided to the judges and each player you play against (which is the rule, anyway). There's a thread somewhere else where a guy is doing it, and someone offered him some GREAT advice... Create your army list on the computer & put an image of the squad next to the entry for it, as well as a descritopn of what it "is" and what it "counts as."

Where your specific tournaments would be concerned... you'll only know for certain by asking the judges.

Good luck,
Eric

Be clear, be consistant.

The hot button issues are armour save and special/heavy weapons. Everyone will understand that when 8 out of 10 figures in a squad have the same gun, that they carry a bolter/las gun. Sorting out the melta guns from the plasma guns is the tricky part. If you mixing MEQ with IG (like in a demon hunter army list), be sure to have the MEQ large and the IG small.

Take nothing for granted - I recently had some one mistake a Storm trooper squad (SM chest with catachan arms/legs) for part of a command squad (plastic cadians). And this was after I'd gone to the trouble of giving them a photographic army list!

RanTheCid wrote:Be clear, be consistant.

Bingo, particularly with emphasis on consistency. Ran is also on with the armor / weapons being the most important elements to keep in mind when designing a counts as army. And as MM said, counts as is in no way proxying - creating a unique army that utilizes the rules for another army is counts as; proxy is IMO "testing out" a unit or option without having a model that actually depicts it specifically. Proxy is temporary and has no place at any formal event.

Trying to avoid speechifying, but the counts as "rule" takes advantage of the fact that warhammer (fantasy, 40k, whatever) is highly representational and very abstract in the end. Any argument of THIS IS A SPACE MARINE and THAT IS NOT goes against the very mechanism that allows you to make the army you want and me to make the army I want, and yet we can still interact with each other with a standardized system of rules despite having what can (and ought to) be two highly distinct sets of models.

I's a magical thing, and counts as just takes a little bit more imagination because we've been taught that a marine or tyranid looks like this - *insert 'Eavy Metal photo of ultramarine, termagaunt* - but I believe we can apply the generalized unit rules we know to another person's view with little effort. And if you need the help, therein is the use of the illustrated armylist

- Salvage

I definitely agree. When I start building my counts as army, I intend to use mainly the actual heavy/special weapons themselves, just a little fancified with random things. If anything, I intend to make any bizarre changes fairly unique and obvious (a hell hound that is a series of giant magnifying lenses with mirrors, etc.)

Still, so long as it is consistant/obvious, I don't think anyone should complain.

MagickalMemories wrote:@lifeater -- You're confusing proxying with "counts as." Your opponent CLEARLY proxied. That's annoying.

What Brave... is saying is that he wants to create a themed army and, since there are no rules for that army, use the list of another army (using an IG list but painting them as traitors and using "counts as" to use the IG rules is an example).

That is not, in my book, glorified proxying. IMO, there's no such thing as glorified proxying. I don't think you CAN glorify it. LOL

I wouldn't have a problem playing against it or having it in a tourney I was playing or running with one caveat... Your army list was provided to the judges and each player you play against (which is the rule, anyway). There's a thread somewhere else where a guy is doing it, and someone offered him some GREAT advice... Create your army list on the computer & put an image of the squad next to the entry for it, as well as a descritopn of what it "is" and what it "counts as."

Where your specific tournaments would be concerned... you'll only know for certain by asking the judges.

Good luck,
Eric

this thread
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/205492.page

And it is excellent advice. I would add and reinforce-be consistent. All your counts as items have to be the same.

Now I was under the impression that the "counts as" rule in the Apocolypse book was created so that the players could introduce new ideas to the game. NOT to substitute one model for another.

For example, a year or so ago I thought about modelling an Eldar Defense turret for a craftworld style table. I thought of a pillar ( about 2" tall) with a falcon turret mounted on top, guarding the webway portal.
It would have armor 12, 360 degree rotation, same weapons options as a falcon, and could use the spirit stone upgrade.
For damage, it would use the standard table with the exception that any "immobilized" results would be changed to "weapon destroyed".

So, using Necromunda models to represent an Inquistors retinue, using IG as the stat line would be colorful and creative, IMO. Using a different range of models to represent a codex army in its entirety is not.
But, thats just my two credits worth.

BraveRifles wrote:
I am kicking around the idea of creating a new army and converting it to be an Adeptus Mechanicus army. My concern is that I want to be able to bring this to tournaments and I am wondering how the dakka community feels about "Counts As".

Does it cause too many hassles during game play?

Do you look at it as glorified proxying?

Is "Counts As" just a way to get around WYSIWYG?

Thanks
Brave Rifles

well.. you said the magic word "tournament", which means that you intend to walk into a howling nest of screaming, petulent children who's only validation is winning.

and you don't think you're going to have -any- issues? at all?

RanTheCid wrote:Be clear, be consistant.

The hot button issues are armour save and special/heavy weapons. Everyone will understand that when 8 out of 10 figures in a squad have the same gun, that they carry a bolter/las gun. Sorting out the melta guns from the plasma guns is the tricky part. If you mixing MEQ with IG (like in a demon hunter army list), be sure to have the MEQ large and the IG small.

Take nothing for granted - I recently had some one mistake a Storm trooper squad (SM chest with catachan arms/legs) for part of a command squad (plastic cadians). And this was after I'd gone to the trouble of giving them a photographic army list!

that's probably because they were being purposely dense so they could later complain to the people running the tournament and get you disqualified.

I expected to have issues and I am aware there is going to be someone out there that will get bent out of shape because my vision of what an "ork" or "necron" is conflicts with theirs or GW's.

My goal in starting the thread was to find ways of mitigating those issues, I really like that idea of a photo army list, and I would always check with

The main issue I am thinking I would run into is another player during play getting confused about what a unit was or what the unit was carrying. My other concern was tournament organizers not allowing me to play as it wouldn't be WYSIWYG from a very technical and anal perspective.

Brave Rifles

Laserbait wrote:Now I was under the impression that the "counts as" rule in the Apocolypse book was created so that the players could introduce new ideas to the game. NOT to substitute one model for another.

Note that you're the first person to mention a counts as rule in the APOC book. I personally had no idea such a rule existed

Laserbait wrote:So, using Necromunda models to represent an Inquistors retinue, using IG as the stat line would be colorful and creative, IMO. Using a different range of models to represent a codex army in its entirety is not.
But, thats just my two credits worth.

Oddly enough I find that using Necro models for an INQ retinue pretty much expected, and using a different range of models to represent a codex army in its entirety colorful and creative.

But like you say, to each his/her own.

- Salvage

These are some of the armies I have seen at US GTs:

IG converted from Lizardmen (This one is actually mine, included real turtlesheels converted into Chimeras, a 40K Earthshaker cannon mounted on a stegadon=Basilisk, poison arrow themed sentinels-complete with googly eyes)

Chaos Nurgle converted from Orks. The Ork Stormboys turned into Raptors using Dragonfly wings were great, I called them fairy orks

IG converted from Skaven, IG and Marines converted from skeletons, Eldar Saim Hann Dragon Riders (using dragons instead of jetbikes and Wave Serpepents, Chaos Thousand Sons converted from Squats, and so on and so on. I've seen several Adeptus Mechanicus armies over the years using Marine, IG, and Daemonhunters rules.

So I say go for it. Create a unique and interesting army. In spite of Blackheart's comments negative comments re tourneys, most tourney players enjoy seeing such armies on the table and will likely score you extra points (assuming it's done well) for painting/theme. My Lizardmen IG have won multiple Best Army trophies, just cause they were something different, not because I have any real skill at painting and/or converting. Heck, just took them out of storage so they can play in the Iron Fist League Toys for Tots tourney this weekend.

don_mondo wrote:These are some of the armies I have seen at US GTs:

IG converted from Lizardmen (This one is actually mine, included real turtlesheels converted into Chimeras, a 40K Earthshaker cannon mounted on a stegadon=Basilisk, poison arrow themed sentinels-complete with googly eyes)

I don't suppose you've got a topic going with photos of them?

Chaos Thousand Sons converted from Squats

Ah, yes! The Thousand Squats.

Awesome army, that one.

I remember when he converted it.

I wonder if he's retooled his list for the new codex.


Eric

TragicNut wrote:

don_mondo wrote:These are some of the armies I have seen at US GTs:

IG converted from Lizardmen (This one is actually mine, included real turtlesheels converted into Chimeras, a 40K Earthshaker cannon mounted on a stegadon=Basilisk, poison arrow themed sentinels-complete with googly eyes)

I don't suppose you've got a topic going with photos of them?

Afraid not, but maybe I can get some photos of them in the tourney this weekend.