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this came up in a recent game where a tank was in position to tank shock into a melee containing freindly figures. his tank shock was totally legal in that he would not effect any freindly unit during the charge and his tank would only touch the enemy, in this case a demon prince. is this legal etc. as far as we could determine it is not ruled out by anything in the main rule book. thanks.

You are correct, it is not prohibited in the rules.

That said, there is a high likelyhood that the rules designers forgot to cover the issue as allowing tank shocking into close combats presents all sorts of wierd situations to occur, none of which are then covered by the rules.


In short, the easiest way to handle the situation is to play with a 'house rule' that tank shocking into CC is prohibited.

If you want to play by the RAW(ish) and allow it, then you'll need to make up rules for what happens to locked models that would end up underneath the vehicle (as locked models are not allowed to move) and what happens to the combat if the unit fighting falls back out of it.

Slapping your opponent is also not prohibited....but it raises all sorts of situations not covered by the rules, so it's best not to. Hard to house rule a whuppin. lol

I agree that it is definitely a big grey area and should be house ruled.

Personally, I think it should be allowed, but all units in the melee need to make a morale check, and then move/fall back and become unengaged at 1".

It sounds like a little much, but I am envisioning a tank as being 1: unable to surgically go after the enemy in a swirling melee and 2: both sides considering a tank about to run them over being a more pressing concern than the fellow with a chain sword.

Alternately you could allow a morale check to stay engaged, perhaps with a penalty and figures crushed for every point you fail by. But then, I like complicated rules that get a little out of hand, so simple may be better.

In a pick up game or some such, I would probably ask what the opponant thought with a default of "no" if he didn't care one way or the other. It is a rare enough situation that it can be done away with with little notice.

It seems to me that the closest solution to RAW would be to simply allow the models to move, although they ordinarily cannot move while locked--consider the compulsory movement of Tank Shock to be a "more specific rule". For comparison, a pinned unit cannot move either, but I suspect most people would still allow it to be Tank Shocked.

"Sir! They are shooting at us! What do we do!"
"Get down!"
"Argh! Now a tank is trying to run us over! Now what?!"
"Get down again!"

(You gotta imagine the Arnold "get to the choppa!" accent on the "get down.")

tegeus-Cromis wrote:It seems to me that the closest solution to RAW would be to simply allow the models to move, although they ordinarily cannot move while locked--consider the compulsory movement of Tank Shock to be a "more specific rule". For comparison, a pinned unit cannot move either, but I suspect most people would still allow it to be Tank Shocked.

But what if it forces models that are in base contact with the enemy out of base contact with the enemy? What if that was the only model actually in base contact with the enemy? Does that mean the combat is now over? If so, players are going to try to set up Tank Shocks to break their units out of combats they don't want to be in.


Seriously, you aren't able to fire into close combat because your guys are afraid of hitting their own men but Tank drivers are free to go plowing through a swirling melee? It just doesn't make any sense and is one of the few times I think you can safely assume the designers simply forgot to write a rule about it.



But good call about being Pinned. . .that's clearly a contradiction that needs to be FAQ'd.

And what happens if the 'shocked unit has nowhere to move to?

Picture: Enemy unit in front, in CC, impassable terrain on one side, enemy unit to the other side. Tank shocks from the rear, stopping once in contact with the shocked unit.

Models have to be moved, but there is nowhere to go. They get destroyed? Seems like an open invite to abuse.

Not sure, but wouldn't the tank shock just be considered an assault? It's listed under "vehicles and assault" even though it happens in the movement phase. if that was the case wouldn't the pinned troops move, and the pinning be cancelled (as per a normal assault)? Either way I don't think it matters - the rules say that a pinned unit cannot move, shoot, or assault, or take any other actions in it's next turn. The tank shock isn't going to occur in it's next turn no matter what - it's happening on it's opponents turn.

lambadomy wrote:Not sure, but wouldn't the tank shock just be considered an assault? It's listed under "vehicles and assault" even though it happens in the movement phase. if that was the case wouldn't the pinned troops move, and the pinning be cancelled (as per a normal assault)? Either way I don't think it matters - the rules say that a pinned unit cannot move, shoot, or assault, or take any other actions in it's next turn. The tank shock isn't going to occur in it's next turn no matter what - it's happening on it's opponents turn.

Just because the Tank Shock rules are in a section called "vehicles and assaults" doesn't suddenly mean that tank shocking is the same thing as being assaulted.

And yes, there are several ways that units can become pinned in their own turn. One example (and there are more) is a transport vehicle moving through a minefield, destroying itself and the disembarking occupants become entangled (pinned).

yeah, I didn't think of the entangled(pinned) issue - but I still think the wording of pinned means you would be able to move during a tank shock - it just says "on it's next turn". Maybe I'm misunderstanding how a turn is defined, but the fact that they referred to "it's" and not "the" next turn would imply that all of this really only matters for the controlling player's turn, and it would move right out of the way on the opponent's turn, pinned or not.

Otherwise, how would being pinned affect everyone's favorite movement-causing power, lash of submission?

Maybe it still deserves a FAQ, but I do think that "it's turn" means something specific. But maybe there is something I'm not thinking of that would force a model to move on it's own turn, hmm...

yak:

But what if it forces models that are in base contact with the enemy out of base contact with the enemy? What if that was the only model actually in base contact with the enemy? Does that mean the combat is now over? If so, players are going to try to set up Tank Shocks to break their units out of combats they don't want to be in.

Seriously, you aren't able to fire into close combat because your guys are afraid of hitting their own men but Tank drivers are free to go plowing through a swirling melee? It just doesn't make any sense and is one of the few times I think you can safely assume the designers simply forgot to write a rule about it.

I agree with your concerns, but none of them affect the RAW.

tegeus-Cromis wrote:yak:

But what if it forces models that are in base contact with the enemy out of base contact with the enemy? What if that was the only model actually in base contact with the enemy? Does that mean the combat is now over? If so, players are going to try to set up Tank Shocks to break their units out of combats they don't want to be in.

Seriously, you aren't able to fire into close combat because your guys are afraid of hitting their own men but Tank drivers are free to go plowing through a swirling melee? It just doesn't make any sense and is one of the few times I think you can safely assume the designers simply forgot to write a rule about it.

I agree with your concerns, but none of them affect the RAW.

Players opinions have to matter because the RAW don't allow a clear course of action so players are forced to make something up to resolve the issue.

A vehicle Tank shocks into close combat and the unit passes its Morale check. Locked models aren't allowed to move. What happens? Nobody knows.

Not allowing a vehicle to tank shock into close combat is just as good a compromise as allowing the locked models to move to avoid the tank.

When you have a true grey area in the rules then all of a sudden player opinion, intent and all those kinds of things have to be utilized because there isn't any alternative. And not allowing a vehicle to tank shock into close combat is clearly in the "spirit" of the rules IMHO.

The best thing to do is not tank shock into melee.

- G

I don't know, I could really see Ork vehicles with the roller crusher thing smashing into combat being seen as a good idea all around by other orks.

It is probably best to just say No to tank shocking melee, but I think there is an argument that it might be viable.

You have to say yes or no, maybe does not cut it.

- G

The OP and I are in the same gaming group and this has the group split down the middle (strange, both Tau players want to allow it...). I think its just a bad idea and in the end we will most likely rule that it is not allowed. It seems too open to abuse and creates too many strange situations.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

Wehrkind wrote:I don't know, I could really see Ork vehicles with the roller crusher thing smashing into combat being seen as a good idea all around by other orks.

It is probably best to just say No to tank shocking melee, but I think there is an argument that it might be viable.

Just as could envision a Chaos commander ordering his troops to fire on an enemy unit locked in combat with his own troops, especially rival factions. However, the rules specifically deny the ability to fire into CC. Why should tank shocking into CC be any different? Unless......

Unless ALL combatants in a CC ( friend & foe) had to pass the same moral tests.

As per the book:
"close combat is a swirling melee of troops leaping, spinning, hacking & slashing at one another" p.38
"likewise, while especially twisted & soulless commanders may wish their warriors to fire indiscriminately into the middle of close combats in the hopes of hitting the enemy, this is not permitted. The events in a CC move too quickly...." p.44

Agreed.

- G