Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Just was wondering of your thoughts on Space marine bikes, and are they worth taking over Assault marines?

To actually assault with? No. No they are not.

The price difference between the two squads of reasonable assault strength is substantial, and to be honest the best thing about Assault Marines is that they are a fast moving Power Fist Delivery System that can still manage to put down enough bodies to soak wounds for the hidden Fist.

Bikes can't soak wounds for the fist as well and contribute less attacks in assault than Assault Marines will.

Bikes and Assault Marines are two entirely different units.

3 Bikes + 1 Heavy Bolter gives you a stable firing platform for 146 points with abalative wounds, twin-linked bolters and they can be used in a pinch in an assault. T5 really helps them there. They even have frag grenades and you can take special weapons while keeping the TL bolters.

Assault Marines are Assault Marines. They're cheaper, and you can give'er. Like Voodoo said they are the best place to include a power fist. They are good for delivering characters, especially Chaplains, as well.

In my experience only Space Wolves can assault with bikes. I think they can upgrade PF in the quads they have a base two attacks and get two more on a charge. If you really want some assault bikes check out their codex. It's stll 3rd ed, but I'm crossing my fingers about a White Dwarf Release.

You forgot about templars they can carry 3 PW not sure about power fists but if they do lose the Assault there fearless giving you another chance to cause more casualities and hold them up longer

In my experience? Not really.

They're great models and fun, but not 'competitive'.

They do have uses - taking objectives, being hard to kill when Turbo-Boosting, beating up soft targets like Tau and Guard, but they're not really a replacement for Assault Marines.

The only time I take a bike is for a chaplin with a few extra bits when I'm playing with plenty of points to spend. The bike in this case means that his assult can easily be timed to my assult squad (with an assasin thrown in for good measure on the oddocasion). the actual main reason for me takin the bike is simply for the toughness increase. That one point can and has meant the difference between life and death for him when he gets mobbed. Many tell me that it's just dumb to let him get into that sort of situation in the first place but when your spending that many points then you might as well let him fight to the death and get the value from it. You never know, he could hold up a large mob of orcs for several turns single handed while you deal with the more shooty bits first. Again for really big games i sometimes back him up with a bike squadron, simply to give him a bit of support but these guys rarely last long once in combat with a large mob. They simply get swaped by the amount of enemy fotslogrs that can crowd round em.

How about chaos bikes? Do the ikons offer something especially nice for them, or do the above comments mostly hold true for the eevil bikers as well?

I ask as my CSM army has 3 open fast attak slots and raptors ain't happening

- Salvage

If you are playing DA, the Ravenwing bikers can get off a turn 1 charge with 4 powerfist attacks on the charge, 5 if they are carrying Sammael's banner.

Ravenwing bikers are a pretty good utility in the DA codex, but then of course, its the DA codex. (meaning bottom line your army wont be top tier anyway)

"worth taking" is a difficult qualifier. My interpretation of that question is, "Are bikes a good choice for a very competitive vanilla space marine army?"

If my interpretation is correct, then my answer is 'no'. There are 3 things that bikes can do. They can redeploy themselves to an area where your opponent is vulnerable and engage in a firefight. Or they can swiftly move to an area and prepare to launch an assault. Lastly, then can hang back playing defensively, zooming onto an objective at the end of the game. All of these roles can be completed by different and better units.

If you are looking to assault, I agree with the other posters. Use assault marines. They aren't as fast, but ablative wounds and massive numbers of strength 4 attacks make them far superior for wetwork. Same slot, more wounds, no turbo boost, but more attacks to cut through any high model count unit, and more protection for a floating power fist to take out hard targets.

If you are looking to insert a unit very close to your enemy and engage in a firefight, then you would absolutely want to spend points on tactical squads in drop pods. The impact that a drop pod has on a game is substantial. Creating new LOS blocking terrain, bringing 10 marines within firefight range instantly is just vastly better than a bike unit. And they come in a better slot too.

For hanging back, playing defensively, and scoring objectives, it doesn't get any better than landspeeders. In the same slot you get a vehicle with many different weapon options that moves at the same speed and in most cases comes in at much cheaper than a bike unit.

i suppose the one thing the bike unit has is the ability to perform all of these roles in a pinch. It will be a far less effective compared to any of the others, but an expensive bike unit can assault, shoot, and claim objectives all at once. I would never recommend this though. Too general of a skill set, too expensive to pay for the flexibility.

If "worth taking" means something else, like "Are they worth taking in a ravenwing or white scars army?" Or "Will I automatically lose every game I play with bikes?" Then I would have a different answer.

I hope i was helpful.

Castellan Brant, assuming you are specifically talking about Black Templars bikes, judging by your PM to me about your BT list, I would have to say no - Black Templars Bikes, for the purposes of Assaulting, are crap on wheels.

Why? Well, for starters, Black Templars cannot take Sergeants, which makes for a poor FA slot that cannot take a ton of ablative wounds. They can take Meltaguns, check. Meltabombs, check. Plasma Guns, check. We know they can deliver mild amounts of mid-range antipersonnel firepower, and can take anti-tank weapons that require them to get unsettlingly close to the enemy (I say unsettling because 3 T4(5) models with a 3+ save can get dropped quite easily when playing above 750pts. Sure, they can beat up on weaker infantry, like Guard or Tau, but what can't?

For the purposes of tank killing, they are decent. They are not great because for the cost of two bikes with two meltaguns, I can buy an Attack Bike with a Multi-Melta, that gives me twice the effective range. Range is important because as fragile squads, closing with the enemy requires additional turns or movement, which in turn means additional turns that require the weathering of enemy weapons fire, which usually leads to additional casualties.

Back to the original question. Compared to Assault Marines, BT Bikers are pure garbage. 3 Bikes with 3 Power Swords costs 126 points. Sure, they have frags, and the ability to patter their target with a whopping 6 TL bolter shots when in charge range, but they only have 1 base attack each, and after their initial charge where their decent 6-power weapon attack kills a Marine or two in CC, they are useless. They'll get destroyed.

On the other hand, for 125 points, I can buy a 5-man Assault Marine Squad with a Power Fist. They'll charge with 15 attacks, 3 of which will be S8 and ignore armor, albeit at Init 1. After that initial charge, the unit (which also has frags, and the ability to shoot 5 bolt pistol rounds before charging, making the pre-charge firepower of each squad roughly each) still can get 8 regular attacks and 2 PF attacks each turn. That'll kill 2-3 marines a turn, which is a heck of a lot better than the dismal show the bikes are putting on. 3 attacks, 1.5 hits, 0.75 dead MEQs per turn.

Never mind the fact that the bikes will get overwhelmed much more easily, with only 3 wounds compared to 5. Even T5 won't help them, especially when going up against targets where the Hidden Fist is vital.

Assault Marines can also deep strike, making up for the lack of Turbo-boosting speed. They can carry Meltabombs, giving them a ton more anti-tank attacks, and can pack Plasma Pistols, giving them punch against heavy infantry as well. Hell, they can even take Storm Shields, which at the cost of +1 Attack, gives some of the squad the ability to hold out against said Monstruous Creatures that I mentioned previously. In assault, Bikes have no defense against anything that is S6 and/or T6, since models with that level of characteristic are more often than not going to be ignoring armor and getting multiple mid to high WS attacks, further eroding the Bikes from the position of incompetent assaulters to worthless generalists.

The problem with Bikes is that they suffer from General Deficiency Syndrome. Attack Bikes are better anti-tank and anti-personnel mobile platforms, while Assault Marines pack more OOMPF in Assault, with staying power to match, and the ability to act as comparable Assaulting Anti-tank units to boot, thereby stripping Bikes of their last bastion of credibility.

All that said, I like occasionally playing a game where I take a Master of Sanctity on a Bike with a PF and a retinue of 3 Power Sword Bikers. I'd never do it in a competitive game, or where I needed to even think for more than half a second, but it was fun to sneak around that once ruined building and effectively roll up the entire Tau gun line, consisting of 30+ soft infantry targets, 3 XV8 Crisis suits, and a Hammerhead, which exploded and killed everything in the end.

So, do yourself a favor - don't take bikes. Assault Marines, when compared to Bikes, only suffer from "Anything You Can Do, I Can Do Better" Syndrome.

That was the long answer. Hope it helps.

CK

Here's the short answer.

Bikes are the red-headed stepchild of Smurf FA choices.

Land Speeders are more shooty, Assault Marines are more assault.

Pick one of those, and be happy.

Well said, Stelek.

My my, I do rant in the early hours, don't I?

CK

@ Castellan-Good question!

@ Korpsman of Krieg-that was a good read, very interesting diagnostics.

@ Stelek-short & sweet as usual also infomative.

I too only take my bikes as 'fun' units. Don't get me wrong, I don't treat them with disdain or anything, I just have tried and failed too many times to rely on them as any sort of long-lived tactical asset.

And @ KofK -Yes, a Chaplain led bike squad is really nasty when you get to out-flank some poor, hapless soon to be Fist-paste.
I love doing that ....Bwaaaahahahah

I'm in agreement with Stelek and CoK. Templar bikers suck. Assault marines for the win(especially with a Jump pack chappy). Attack bikes though are a different story for Templars and I use mine with good success. They are one of the only decent ways to lend mobile AT firepower to your angry mobs advance. Usually I move them into some 4+ cover and sit them there like a dev squad. Then once they've caused enough damage/ distraction, hide them for taking objectives later in the game.

Capt K

Librarians and chaplains on bikes are good. Attack bikes are very good at what they do. I used both regularaly in tournies for years. Regular bikes fall short in usefulness, especially compared to attack bikes. If you are going to burn an FA slot on regular bikes, you are doing it for theme or ha-ha's, not effectiveness. Theme is fun, so don't get discouraged from playing them, but don't expect them to anchor your list either.
I would go with assault marines over bikes for the ability to jump over terrain. Big advantage. There is nothing worse than when your smallish bike squad charges through terrain and one (or more) get destroyed before the first blows are struck in hth.

You bought the bikes, use 'em!

Boss_Salvage wrote:How about chaos bikes? Do the ikons offer something especially nice for them, or do the above comments mostly hold true for the eevil bikers as well?

I ask as my CSM army has 3 open fast attak slots and raptors ain't happening

- Salvage

IF (and that is a BIG IF) you decide to take bikes, you really should Mark them Nurgle for the T6, or Tzeentch for the 2+ Invulnerable saves when boosting. I prefer Tzeentch, to be honest. The T6 vs insta-kill is still T4. A 2+ invulnerable save is a 2+ against ALL shooting (barring psycannons, of course).
That being said, I'd only use them if you're hoping for a turn 2 Daemon bomb... and that can be iffy, considering that you aren't guaranteed to GET those daemons on Turn 2.


As far as SM bikes are concerned... I know there are better choices under most circumstances. Personally, I like them for their speed & potential numbers. With the right traight (I forget the name), you can take them as a troop choice with skilled rider and take as large a squad as you want (minimum size 5 bikes).
No need to tell me how I'm wrong, folks. I know most here disagree, but you won't change my mind. I just wanted to throw that out as an option if anyone INSISTS on playing SM bikes.


Eric

I will be everyones 'Yeahsayer' on bikes.

There is a way to use them, all or nothing. As an isolated unit in a normal marine list you can do far better with assault marines, but despite the nerf most armies have a problem with 30-40 White Scars in their deployment area on the fist turn. Select doctrines to improve your bikesand pay for little else. Sure there are better units than bikes, but Land Speeders dont get power fists and nothing else is as fast.

Oh and yes, some armies will be very happy to see a marine bike army charging them, they just get to chomp them all the sooner, others will be in big trouble.

I find they are best for objective grabbing. Hide them behind terrain fro several turns and then turbo boost to contest that last quarter or get on that objective he is barely holding and assault the btrds. Then again I play Dark Angels so our Bikes are a bit better than the average one... That and we can call down termie death if things get hairy.

just an extra comment, one thing bikes have over speeders is they can tarpit to some degree, while speeders are one dimensional.

bikes, assault and speeders are all good, the latter two are more obviously useful but bikes have a nice tactical flexibility.

as for chaos bikes, they're cool for one, they're a bit more assaulty but not as good as raptors, but then they're one of the more shooty units available as well. I'd include some for the doom rider feel if nothing else, but there's probably better units available for the points. They're good in a shooty list if such a thing exists in the new book. eg Noise Marines w/ HB Havocs.

Space Wolf bikes are different from your normal SM bike and scout bike squads. You can upgrade with PW or PFs, Add a WG leader with assorted goodies, and they get a bonus attack on the charge. Plus they are the same cost as BCs with jump packs.

I'm surprised you guys I missing one of the best uses of bikes.

A bike squadron with a pair of meltaguns creates an amazing anti-tank unit. Add an Attack Bike with a Multimelta, and you've got one of the most effective tank-killer units in the game. 12" move, T5, 3+ save, turbo-boost, can move and shoot heavy weapons, possible ablative wounds, BS4, three melta weapons, and once they've fried whatever nasty vehicle you need dead they make a handy instant tarpit far away from your lines. Hold them in reserve until you get an opportunity, turbo-boost them along a flank, preferably behind some piece of cover, then leap out, slag your target with the meltas, and then either charge into whatever needs slowing down or set up your attack run to provide you cover so you can do it again. It's worked flawlessly for me several times using both a regular bike squadron and attack bike squadrons, mostly because the enemy cannot shoot the bikes if they are behind my lines, while hovering speeders are fair game, and a lot more vulnerable to anti-tank weaponry.

Welcome to dakka Open.

I would take melta guns in a bike horde, but as an anti tank choice in a reguklar army you are missing much.

You can dom as well with some suicide multimelta land speeders, they also have the acvantage that they can fly to their target, wheras bikes must go round, or fight through any screen to get close.

Nexct look at the price
five bikes plus multimelta attack bike. Now assuming we are using vanilla that is 160pts for the bikes, 20 for the melta guns and 65 for the attack bike. We will leave off the vst sgt and powerfist that would be worth taking here for now. 245pts is a LOT.

For that you could have:

1. For 25pts more you can have two fire support dreds each with twin linked lascannon, missile launcher and extra armour.

2. For 30pts less you can have a tooled up pred annihilator 150pts with extra armour and lascannon sponsons. And a multi melta landspeeder for 65pts (for cheap role duplication)

3. My favourite for 168pts six elite devastators with 3 missile launchers and Tank Hunter (requires Honour Your Wargear doctrine.) Then throw in a Land Speeder Tornado and I am still only 3pts over the cost of the bike squad.


Bikes are all or nothing, but if its all take power fists and melta guns in your squads, and however many meltabombs you need. I wouldnt bother with attack bikes, you need all the points you can spare for bike squads .

Now attack bike squadrons do hold their value, as an alternative to Land Speeders once in a while. they are only relatively weak, by not being undercosted unlike most S choices. Though the +15pts for the multimelta doesnt make sense and is being progressively changed to an equal points value weapon swap. You can do worse than taking three heavy bolter attack bikes from time to time.

I hope this isn't Threadomany, but Army builder lets me make a Templar bike squad with 5 powerswords. Is that a malfunction?