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Please help. I enjoy a competitive playing environment. I have a successful necron army and had a lot of success with my currently retired blood angel army. I'm a decent player with light tourney experience. I plan to get more tourney games in this year. I have a large painted IG collection, purchased and painted during a time in which i cared little for competitive play. I wanted to update it, making it harder. I planned to win some games against some hard tourney caliber lists.

That hasn't happened. This isn't a plea for good army lists for me to borrow, or a "is guard any good?" post. I'd like to share some abridged list types I have tried against a cross section of opponents. Maybe you all could add some other types of things to try. I'm willing to playtest anything. I have patient friends, and lots of models.

Ok, my first attempt at 'hard' was something like this...

JO 4X PLASMA (dropping)
DEMO CHARGE TEAM X2 (dropping)
LASCANNON TEAM X2
SENTINEL ML HK (dropping)

3X VETERANS X 5 3X PLASMA (dropping)

JO 4XPLASMA (dropping)
INFANTRY LAS PLAS
INFANTRY LAS PLAS

40 CONSCRIPTS

2X HELLHOUND
SENINTEL ML HK (dropping)

LRBT
DEMOLISHER
BASSY

I tested this list against mech tau, mech eldar, SAFH eldar, MC nids, black templars. No luck. It went poorly. So poorly in fact that its not really important that i go into details how i lost. I was tabled most of the games. Drawing board...

HSO FLAG
2X DEMO CHARGE (dropping)

3X VETERANS X5 3XPLASMA (dropping)

2X JO 4XPLASMA (dropping)
4X INFANTRY PLAS AUTOCANNON

2X HELLHOUND

LRBT
DEMOLISHER
BASSY

Played a half dozen games with this list. Not much better. Eldar especially just dominated me. I could take away a few units of bikes, and temporarily neutralize falcons. But all of my answers to skimmers could be classed as 'temporary'. Nids would get hurt, maybe lose a couple MCs, but around turn 3 or 4 was when the momentum would shift. Things would be going well up until that point. but once their dakka got online (18") i was just shoveling my models off the table.

Ok, so now I'm kinda mad. I generally don't have too much trouble hammering out new lists. So the kid gloves are off...

JO 4XPLASMA (dropping)
20 LAST CHANCERS IN 5 GROUPS ALL WITH PLASMA (dropping)
SENTINEL ML HK (dropping)

3X VETERANS 3X PLASMA (dropping)

2X HELLHOUND
SENTINEL ML HK (dropping)

2X DEMOLISHER
LRBT

Now I have a list that is not winning me any points in comp. Or winning me any friends. I have yet to put it in front of someone i am not personally friends with. The biggest problem is, I'm still losing. I'm doing a lot better, mind you. But with this kind of rule-breaking, time intensive silly list, I would hope I could really sock it to my friends and their 'target dummy' test lists. It's just not performing like I was hoping.

With these 3 generations of lists I've played at least a dozen games. Ive made adjustments to target priorities. I've tried ignoring falcons, I've tried keeping them perpetually shaken. I've tried spreading my drops, I've tried concentrating them.

Is there a list out there, more comp friendly with a higher chance of success. I will test any of your suggestions, pending them being sane suggestions. Is there a non-dropping list that can do better? Is there a SAFH version of IG? Don't hesitate to suggest the use of special characters or doctrine combinations. Please don't suggest anything that isn't tourney legal such as imperial armor stuff. I do hope to hit a bunch of tourneys this year.

I'm running out of hope... If I can't get something together that stands a chance against the 'usual suspects' (eldar/space marine/tyranids) then I think I'm gonna scrap guard until 5th edition.

Thanks for your wisdom...

Try maxing out you platoons, Close order drop pods, 3 units take las/plas and the other 2 take Plas and deep strike with the JO's bringing rapid fire death. Hope that helps

In general, IG tends to be kind of a hit or miss style of army. They can win but its rare they win by large margins.

That being said, from what I've seen, the gun line IG army tends to be the most effective. The basic idea is to cram in as many heavy weapons as is humanly possible. I'm not extremely familiar with the IG codex, so I will be speaking in generalities here. Please bare with me.

The first thing you need to do is focus on HQ. The only real thing you require from your HQ should be a leadership bubble that spreads across your army. If you don't have it, things will be running and that's bad. Do whatever you have to in order to make sure you are making your test on leadership 9 or 10 if possible. Do not group your HQ choices together if possible, spread them out to maximize coverage and to ensure that they are difficult to target.

Now, pack in a good amount of basic infantry squads. These guys are dirt cheep and pack heavy weapons. You can pepper in some specials if it works out for you, but generally you'll want to focus on heavy weapons and scrape together all the points possible for them. I find that anti tank weapons seem to work the best. Pile in the las cannons as much as possible and sprinkle in a few auto cannons for flavor. I would suggest having the infantry focus on anti tank / large target killing and then give your tanks the job of wiping out foot troops. At least you want to do that until the enemy gets in las gun range. Then all bets are off and its time to shine all the flash lights you got on whatever was dumb enough to get close. One of my friends packed in 12 infantry based las cannons (and 3 on sentinels) into his 1500 point IG army and still had room for 3 LRBT's and a few auto cannons. That kind of heavy weapon density is what you need.

Heavy weapon squads: These are really powerful, but they tend to be fire magnets. Be careful how you use them and if you do, make sure they are as far back in your deployment zone as possible. Use their range to your advantage as much as you can. Also make sure to put a couple of basic squads in front of them to force target priority checks and to suck up space that could be filled with deep strikers.

Sentinels are great. They are cheep and they pack heavy weapons. You can't go wrong with these guys. Start them behind line of sight blocking cover and move them out on your first turn to cause some pain. I see the las cannon variety doing the most damage but the multi laser ones are good too. Hunter killer missiles can be added on if you got points to spare, but at BS3, they are usually not worth it.

Tanks: If you have loaded out a lot of your infantry with las cannons and auto cannons (auto cannons are great for downing eldar skimmers and rhinos), then you can have your tanks focus on killing troops. The LRBT is a good choice. I would recommend giving it 3 heavy bolters so you can occasionally move it or still have it be a valuable tank if the battle cannon gets blow off. If you take more than one, you may want to just try that on one tank and see how it works. Chimeras are good as mobile terrain and as pill boxes for infantry. The added firepower of the multi laser isn't bad either. Make sure that anywhere they end a turn at would be a good place for some level 3, 4+ cover save terrain, because they tend to die often. Note, you don't need to actually transport anything in them. Hell Hounds are hell on wheels, so to speak, when dealing with foot troops. They won't help much if you are up against mech armies, but they will wipe the floor with the little guys that are harassing you in Nid lists. Demolishers are good at keeping the enemy away from you. If you have heavy weapon teams, I would put your demolisher in the same general area. It will help keep the heat off the heavy weapon team. Just make sure it doesn't block their line of sight.

In general, I don't find that IG drop troops are that effective. Sure you get in close and can open up with all kinds of special weapons, but at BS3, the damage is limited. When return fire comes (and it always does) IG troops drop like flies. Without staying power, drop troops are throwaway units. Now, throw away demo charge units can be worth it if you plan it right, but you have to spend points on the doctrine and that in itself mostly makes it not worth it.

This is a tough one. I think your last list is close to as good as it's going to get. You can maybe add in a couple demo charge drop squads, remove the sentinel, put in another hellhound, give one of the squads meltaguns...but none of those changes seem that major to me.

I assume you're playing against Zilla Nids and Mech Eldar. Well, the 5 man drop plasma squad should get 4.4 glances against the rear of a falcon, and they should kill a 4 wound dakkafex that is not in cover. The problems of course arise when your opponent knows you're dropping and has no reason to go anywhere near your hellhounds or demolishers, sticks their dakkafexs in cover waiting for drops, rubs their falcons backs against table edges, etc...then you're just in trouble, there's not that much of a way around it. The Zilla army can also probably position their gaunts in a way to make dropping within 12 of a TMC difficult. The hellhounds and demolishers may be able to clear that out, but you need to do it quick and you may end up getting the hellhounds exposed to big tyranid guns. And since every drop against TMC is really hoping to trade of 75 points for 113 or 150, you're probably not going to win big with that army no matter what you do, just win.

I don't know if there are better options though, against those two armies. Autocannons may be superior - they outrange the falcons, and you could try a bunch of infiltrating fire support teams with autocannons and even the re-roll 1s ability who's name escapes me...slightly easier to keep alive, so you may get more turns of firing, and force the enemy to come to you. You could also try an entirely mounted list, but I don't really believe it's going to beat the armies you seem to be facing.

The Dropping Last Chancers list you have looks good.

Do a search in the Army List section for posts by Mauleed. He has an IG SAFH list with 15 Lascannons at 1750. I've seen a similar list posted by smart_alex who mentioned he had some success with it.

Basic list goes something like:
HQ - Command Squad built for Leadership
2 x Lascannon Anti-Tank Squads
1 x Minimal Inf Platoon. All squads with just Heavy Bolter
1 x Minimal Conscript Platoon.
1 x Heavy Weapon Platoon w/ 3 x Lascannon Anti-Tank Squads
Some combination of Rough Riders, Cannoness, Seraphim, Grey Knights for counter assault.

All squads that could take it had Cameleoline and Lascannon Anti-Tank squads had Light Infantry.

Thanks Phoenix... as I have learned through testing. I think you are pretty dead on about drop troops. While seemingly very powerful, and very deadly in a flash on turn 2 and 3, they just don't carry the now diminished firebase of guard infantry through the next 3 or 4 turns. My all-plasma, all-dropping last incarnation would have won every game that lasted three turns, but every list I've seen has enough firepower to pick up 10 tiny weak squads over 3 turns. And usually enough to wreck a couple vehicles to boot.

Thanks kadun. Ed Maule's army looks very enticing. Thinking of the current metagame, and my opponents being nids, eldar, drop templars, drop space wolves, and mech tau. I'll be putting a mauleed lascannon list up in army lists tonight. Spam guard bodies and heavy weapons. No hellhounds mean i'll probably want heavy bolters over autocannons, much like he chose. Which is hard for me because I'm such a die-hard autocannon fan.

I really like the leadership cannoness and the hit and run seraphim assault blockers. I have a quick rules question if you don't mind. Could i take a units from both the witch hunter and demonhunter books as allies? i don't see any reason why not. I'll take that to 'you make da call' if it needs to go there.

Thanks again. It sounds like a lot of rational minds are pushing me towards playing a shootier, more static guard list. I'm going to challenge my eldar buddy with Ed's list this weekend. I'll get a marine game in on thursday as well. I'll be back to batrep em for you guys in the batreps section.

@iambadomy: Los Angeles? West side? Ever play at Aero hobbies? You nailed it on the head. My Nid friend figured me out in 1 game. Switched from stealer/ravener infantry to gaunt spam. Surrounded his fexes, devourered spinefisted me to death as i landed helplessly out of 12" of my main targets. It didn't even take the eldar player 1 game. My guard deployment looked a little small, which led him to hug those table edges for just 2 short turns. Once my drop troops were forced into play in bad spots, he'd clean up and then continue with no fear. I couldn't get his bikes after the second game either. Once he knew the threat was over after turn 3 he just turbo boosted on 2 and 3. Drop troop spam is so easily counterable by a skilled player. I think it's time to looks somewhere else.

You can use both Daemonhunters and Witch Hunters as allies for IG under the rules stipulated in their respective codecies.

I've used a variant of the Lascannon static list and here's what I've found:

The list is basically Lascannons and Close Combat units to protect your Lascannons. My Lascannon teams tend to remain scoring units till the end of the game because of how far back they setup, their +1 cover saves, and the fact that all my counter assault dies protecting them.

Downside is it is very hard to capture objectives. Your mobility is in your counter assault units, but their busy keeping assault units off your Lascannons.

In addition, many opponents will throw a Rhino or other throw away vehicle in front of your Lascannons to limit line of sight. Makes it tough to shoot an opponent off an objective if they've blocked LOS to their scoring unit. I wish Heavy Mortars or Griffons were still legal, would help this situation a lot. As it is I do take one Bassie with Indirect Fire.

If you want to win as IG, bring 200+ infantry models.

A couple tarpits, 10+ Lascannon and 15+ Autocannon.

I barely beat it with my way over the top marine army--it literally was me making a single 3+ save at the end to give me the win.

I can draw one up, if you like.

Stelek wrote:I can draw one up, if you like.

I would like to see how many points it takes you to get 200 guys and 25 heavy weapons.

Yes, please do.

Allright, here you go.

6 AC.
6 HB.
17 Lascannon.
211 Models.

You can tweak it to your hearts content.

1750 Pts - Imperial Guard Roster

0 Command Platoon @ 55 Pts
0 Command Squad @ [55] Pts
1 Junior Officer @ [40] Pts
Close Combat Weapon; Laspistol
4 Guardsmen @ [15] Pts
Lasgun (x3); Autocannon

0 Infantry Platoon @ 395 Pts
0 Command Squad @ [55] Pts
1 Junior Officer @ [40] Pts
Close Combat Weapon; Laspistol
4 Guardsmen @ [15] Pts
Lasgun (x3); Autocannon
9 Infantry Squad @ [85] Pts
Lasgun (x8); Lascannon
1 Sergeant @ [6] Pts
Laspistol & CCW
9 Infantry Squad @ [85] Pts
Lasgun (x8); Lascannon
1 Sergeant @ [6] Pts
Laspistol & CCW
9 Infantry Squad @ [85] Pts
Lasgun (x8); Lascannon
1 Sergeant @ [6] Pts
Laspistol & CCW
9 Infantry Squad @ [85] Pts
Lasgun (x8); Lascannon
1 Sergeant @ [6] Pts
Laspistol & CCW

0 Infantry Platoon @ 395 Pts
0 Command Squad @ [55] Pts
1 Junior Officer @ [40] Pts
Close Combat Weapon; Laspistol
4 Guardsmen @ [15] Pts
Lasgun (x3); Autocannon
9 Infantry Squad @ [85] Pts
Lasgun (x8); Lascannon
1 Sergeant @ [6] Pts
Laspistol & CCW
9 Infantry Squad @ [85] Pts
Lasgun (x8); Lascannon
1 Sergeant @ [6] Pts
Laspistol & CCW
9 Infantry Squad @ [85] Pts
Lasgun (x8); Lascannon
1 Sergeant @ [6] Pts
Laspistol & CCW
9 Infantry Squad @ [85] Pts
Lasgun (x8); Lascannon
1 Sergeant @ [6] Pts
Laspistol & CCW

0 Conscripts Platoon @ 205 Pts
10 Conscripts @ [55] Pts
Lasgun (x9); Heavy Bolter
10 Conscripts @ [55] Pts
Lasgun (x9); Heavy Bolter
10 Conscripts @ [55] Pts
Lasgun (x9); Heavy Bolter
10 Conscripts @ [40] Pts
Lasgun (x10)

0 Conscripts Platoon @ 205 Pts
10 Conscripts @ [55] Pts
Lasgun (x9); Heavy Bolter
10 Conscripts @ [55] Pts
Lasgun (x9); Heavy Bolter
10 Conscripts @ [55] Pts
Lasgun (x9); Heavy Bolter
10 Conscripts @ [40] Pts
Lasgun (x10)

1 Heavy Weapons Platoon @ 165 Pts
0 Command Squad @ [55] Pts
1 Junior Officer @ [40] Pts
Close Combat Weapon; Laspistol
4 Guardsmen @ [15] Pts
Lasgun (x3); Autocannon
6 Anti-Tank Squad @ [110] Pts
Lasgun (x3); Lascannon (x3)

1 Heavy Weapons Platoon @ 165 Pts
0 Command Squad @ [55] Pts
1 Junior Officer @ [40] Pts
Close Combat Weapon; Laspistol
4 Guardsmen @ [15] Pts
Lasgun (x3); Autocannon
6 Anti-Tank Squad @ [110] Pts
Lasgun (x3); Lascannon (x3)

1 Heavy Weapons Platoon @ 165 Pts
0 Command Squad @ [55] Pts
1 Junior Officer @ [40] Pts
Close Combat Weapon; Laspistol
4 Guardsmen @ [15] Pts
Lasgun (x3); Autocannon
6 Anti-Tank Squad @ [110] Pts
Lasgun (x3); Lascannon (x3)

Total Roster Cost: 1750

Created with Army Builder
Copyright (c) 1997-2006 Lone Wolf Development, Inc. All rights reserved.

I'll jump in here. A list I've found extemely effective over the past few years is a mix of gunline and drop troops. HQ with HSO and standard and a Platoon JO with Honorifica. That gives me two LD 9 LD bubbles, their job is to stand back and hold my gunline solid, Iron Discipline helps with this. Total of 3 or 4 x 25 man platoons, depending on game size. Every IG squad gets lascannon/plasma gun and a couple of them get Light Infantry. 2nd and 3rd plt JOs get 4 x plasma gun and deep strike, 4th plt JO (when used) is 4 x melta deep strike. HQ Plt gets a couple of Fire support squads with autocannon and 2 x hvy bolters each and Light Infantry. Add one or two Special weapon squad with demo charges and nothing else and then one or two 5-man Hardened vet squads with 3 x meltas each, all of these plan on deep striking. Then throw in however many sentinels I have points left for with multilaser and HK missiles, maybe one with a lsacannon. If I really want to be 'competitive, I also add in a Daemonhunter Inquisitor Lord with Tarot, Psychic Hood, and three mystics, and a Callidus assassin. Went 4-1 at the Balt GT with a this style list this year.

Mondo Has the right Idea. The Inquisitor and Mystics allows for anti-deepstrike. Now that Demon-Bombing is a nolonger viable tactic, Guard have gotten better.

I'll second that. Don_Mondo's got it right.

I field a mixed gunline with multiple Drop Troops and Deep Strikers. To add flavor, I use the Grenadiers and Storm Troopers Doctrines. Here's a rough outline:

HSO w/ ID
Staff
Commie

3 Autocannons
3 Autocannons
SWS w/ 2 Melta, Demo (DT)
SWS w/ 2 Melta, Demo (DT)
Sentinel w/ ML, HK (DT)

Stormies w/ 2 Melta (DS)
Stormies w/ 2 Melta (DS)
Vets w/ 3 Plasma (DT)

Grenadiers w/ 2 Plasma
Grenadiers w/ 2 Plasma
JO w/ HI
Staff
Las/Plas
Las/Plas
Las/Plas

2x Hellhounds
Sentinel w/ ML, HK (DT)

Russ
Russ

Add some goodies to the skeleton, and you'll run it about 2000 points. A few short of 100 models, which is numerically small for a Guard army, but it comes with a TON of suicide striker teams. What can I say - I like Meltaguns.

The upside is that countercharge comes in the form of charge deterrent - I don't know many opponents that would willingly march through 2 Inferno Cannons, 2 HBs, and 2 Stubbers directed at that lone assault Squad without having something seriously wrong with them.

To each his own, I suppose. I would recommend this type of build, however.

CK

Thanks for the list Stelek, and thanks for the reply over on army lists....

Couple questions on that list. (It sounds really fun) Did the guy you played against run heavy bolters in the conscripts? Is it worth it on BS2? Other than that, what about drop pods blocking large amounts of LOS with a pod wall? The vast majority of my games lately have been against eldar or drop marines. Not having los to my targets seems to be a MUCH bigger problem for me than not having enough firepower to kill them. That wasn't your experience when you played vs. that list?

To the guys that suggested a mix of drop and non-drop. I'm glad you guys have had success, but the lists you cited seemed very close to my first lists that I tested with. My experience was that after my suicide squads had finished their bloody business, they hadn't really done enough to protect the now totally undersized and undergunned mini-firebase for the last 3 turns. I made some poor target priority decisions that I adjusted in later test games. But I just couldn't crack eldar and nids and DEFINATELY couldn't beat drop marines. As my play improved i think I'd do a bit better, but my opponents were making adjustments on a game to game basis as well. It was getting harder to win, not easier. thank you for the suggestions though. I don't doubt that you've had success with them. I just seem to operate better when I spam one or the other.

thanks guys...

No, he did not. He had 2500 points to play with, so the conscripts got a pair of GL and were purely used as tarpits.

Drop pods can be very nasty, but honestly you need to learn how to beat them with IG. Creating a deployment where they cannot split your fire base is key. Don't be afraid to charge Marines! If 30 marines drop in front of you, you can shoot them but if any survive and get into CC, setup mass charges and heave ho them to death.

IG require you to focus your army. Drop suicide squads work best for mechanized IG, in my experience.

To the guys that suggested a mix of drop and non-drop. I'm glad you guys have had success, but the lists you cited seemed very close to my first lists that I tested with. My experience was that after my suicide squads had finished their bloody business, they hadn't really done enough to protect the now totally undersized and undergunned mini-firebase for the last 3 turns. I made some poor target priority decisions that I adjusted in later test games.

You should look again at Mondo's list. He has a much larger and effective firebase then the lists you provided, cause he's not using any MBTs or conscripts. He's effectively negated the effectiveness of his opponents heavy weapons by forcing them to kill guardsman, not tanks. And instead of tarpits, he's getting more guns in the list. I'd take a good look at that list, as it would be easier to try that route then go the mega horde that Stelek proposes (which isn't a bad list by any means, just a large investmentof money and time).

Aren't conscripts guardsmen? See one guy in a silly green suit, seen em all I guess.

What's the "over the top" Marine list?

When it turns its hat around, is it like flipping a switch?

I'll post it in a seperate thread.

Shep wrote:
To the guys that suggested a mix of drop and non-drop. I'm glad you guys have had success, but the lists you cited seemed very close to my first lists that I tested with. My experience was that after my suicide squads had finished their bloody business, they hadn't really done enough to protect the now totally undersized and undergunned mini-firebase for the last 3 turns. I made some poor target priority decisions that I adjusted in later test games. But I just couldn't crack eldar and nids and DEFINATELY couldn't beat drop marines. As my play improved i think I'd do a bit better, but my opponents were making adjustments on a game to game basis as well. It was getting harder to win, not easier. thank you for the suggestions though. I don't doubt that you've had success with them. I just seem to operate better when I spam one or the other.

thanks guys...

The way I use the deep strike units is more to delay my opponent, crack that hard unit that I absolutely cannot allow to hit my lines, and just mess with my opponent in general. They are actually very useful against drop pods as I can use them to come in behind the pods and shoot (Note: when playing against a pure drop pod army, I'll make him go first if possible.....). I don't expect them to survive long, and when they do it's a bonus. One big difference (as someone pointed out), at 1750 points my gunline consists of 6 IG squads with Las/plas, two command squads (lascannon only) and two fire support (2 x autocannon, 4 x heavy bolters), plus several sentinels. Depending on circumstances I can either whittle units down at long range and then use the drop troops to finish them or use the drop troops to delay them and then use the firing line to finish them.
Drop Pods can be a problem, and are yet another reason to take mystics, allowing you a free shot at either the disembarking unit or the pod. Split deployment is another tactic that helps to deal with them. Basically you split your firing line into two separate deployment groups, so you have two fire bases. Keep them far enough apart that units assaulting one group cannot easily reach the other but close enough that your long range weapons can support each other. This forces your opponent to either send everything at one deployment group at the risk of never getting to the other or he can split his forces and go after both groups. Either way, you can focus your firepower to deal with specific threats. The split deployment also can give you firing lanes from one group to get at units behind pods threatening the other group. Check out the "Hey Maggot" folder here:
http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/imperialguard/
for more on the split deployment tactic. Good group for IG discussion.

One thing to bear in mind. Fire discipline and target priority. Not the TP test, but your list of what do I want to kill first.
1. Kill his mobility if possible. Transports, fast moving assault units
2. high rate of fire units
3. By now, his slower moving units should be close enough to get vaporized
4. Killed everything else, go after his firing line
Of course, this is NOT set in stone and you have to be willing and able to adapt to circumstances.

Finally, IG do have a steeper learning curve than other armies, especially for those transferring in from fielding those other armies. It requires a different mindset to play Guard and tactics that worked with your Marines, Eldar, Bugs, whatever will not work with Guard. Heck, our best assault unit is a one-shot wonder (Roughriders) or a horrendously expensive Command squad (which is better used for Leadership). Me, I just throw lots of bodies at them if they reach me, quantity has a quality all it's own. Close Order Drill helps (Initiative 4) against most armies. I expect to lose every round of combat until the last one, when I've whittled him down to being ineffective.

I have regulary played against Mondo and his list is a true pain in the ass for my mech tau. The drop troops effectively make me waste at least two turns (first waiting on them, hoping they won't hurt my hammerheads too much, then killing them). Which only leaves me 4 turns to try and kill the rest of them - and I'm often out of optimal position to do so because of trying to defend against the drop troops.

oh yeah - I hate the fricking Callidus with a passion.

But essentially his list has so many bodies, almost always in terrain that's its a tough nut to crack for a mobile shooty army.

@don_mundo

I've also been working on a list using the concept of mixing Drop Troops and gunline. I was wondering if you use any counter assault units when you use that list. I was thinking of using a couple of RR units for counter assault. Would it be worth it to take them, or should I just take as much shooting as possible?

Basic problem with IG HW teams. 6 T3 wounds, 120 points. Incredible fire magnets, and so so fragile. If you don't have a good plan for restricting LoS to them, they will get blown away in turn 1 or 2.

natedogg710 wrote:@don_mundo

I've also been working on a list using the concept of mixing Drop Troops and gunline. I was wondering if you use any counter assault units when you use that list. I was thinking of using a couple of RR units for counter assault. Would it be worth it to take them, or should I just take as much shooting as possible?

Mundo? Close enough........... I personally don't use any dedicated counter-assault units. Others do use them and have had success, guess it's just not my play-style. If I were to add something in, it would probably be a unit of Rough Riders. As it is, I rely on hordes of Guard and maybe a sentinel or two.

The Grog wrote:Basic problem with IG HW teams. 6 T3 wounds, 120 points. Incredible fire magnets, and so so fragile. If you don't have a good plan for restricting LoS to them, they will get blown away in turn 1 or 2.

Yep. That's why the only ones I regularly use are Fire Support squads. MEQ tend to ignore them and go after the las/plas IG squads while soft-skin armies seem to have a more difficult time taking them out.

The best plan is to have so many heavy weapons with a 48" range setup on your backfield that most other armies need to come to you to kill them--and putting down even 'fragile' HW squads has a strength to it if the other guy can't kill them all with his shooting. Setting up in crossfire patterns is wise, of course, and makes choices difficult.

You can run significant amounts of guns if you really really want to. Most armies have a hell of a time blowing them away in enough numbers to degrade your shooting.

Honestly, I run a 110 point Lascannon AT squad in almost every list I run. I find that the combination of range, cover, and deploying with HQ instead of heavy makes these things as survivable as they need to be. For 95 points, I can get a las/plas squad, and for 15 points more, I can triple my lascannons but lose three guys. I think it's a good deal, but I know a lot of Guard players disagree. Tactically, I feel like it gives me some different options because I need fewer lascannons in my line squads, so I can take heavy bolters, or missile launchers to cover a wider range of targets. It also allows my line squads to move more readily because fewer are required to be stationary to keep up anti-tank fire.

I should make clear, however, that I also take Las/plas squads, and sometimes Lascannon Sentinels, (I like having diverse sources of tank killing power). I also tend to play mixed army, with 3-4 Hellhounds and Chimeras in the 1850 range. I've noticed that many of the same weapons suitable for killing 6 man AT squads (Missile Launchers, primarily, sometimes ACs, Landspeeders) tend to overlap with the Guard's light armor selections. This helps keep my AT squads safe by drawing fire or simply blocking line of sight.

in one of my news list i use two fire support with carpace+sharpshooter and some snipers yes these are a lot of points but in the 2 games with these i won both one was CSM AND SM put them in the back and had one hell of a cross fire one was HB and the other AC !on some of the tables i play there is very little cover so 4+ helps a little

skullspliter888 wrote:in one of my news list i use two fire support with carpace+sharpshooter and some snipers yes these are a lot of points but in the 2 games with these i won both one was CSM AND SM put them in the back and had one hell of a cross fire one was HB and the other AC !on some of the tables i play there is very little cover so 4+ helps a little

Are you running Grenadiers or another configuration without a good number of infantry? The problem with Carapace is that even if there are only a total of 10 Guard squads in your army upgrading to Carapace comes in at 200 pts. Although some find it to be worthwhile, it seems expensive compared to the lost firepower.

@Shep and Lambdomy, You guys play at Aero Hobbies? When are they having another RTT there?

Are you guys on the GW SoCal website? http://z6.invisionfree.com/GW_SoCal/index.php?

That is a website for all the local So Cal players.

Sorry to go OT.

Darrian