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This might be to rough for this web site but what do you think about illegal aliens (the human kind) here in the USA?

Depends.

Are we talking the illegal aliens that take advantage of the systems in place for real citizens? The ones who use up millions of dollars of our tax money and give nothing back? If so, those one should be deported; end of disccusion in my book.

Or are you talking about the illegal aliens that have come here in hopes of a better life, work hard, do not exploit the systems, and work to obtain a citizenship / green card? They should have taken the steps needed before they jumped the border, but they are doing it now and aren't harming society so I can look past it.

I have seen some pretty disturbing videos of some of the protests certain groups have in the US, and they are pretty awful. I cannot villify( I would not want to anyway!) any particular ethnicity, and I do not live there, however this happens in pretty much any developed country, where the quality of life seems so much better than where some people come from.

If the worlds wealth was a little more evenly distributed, it would probably not happen that much any more.

I think the people that are responsible are the people in power. It really is not up to those who sometimes don't even have the power to vote in thier own country.

Australia is one of the best countries in the world for Multi-culturalism/blending.
I have heard though that internationally we are considered some of the worst racists though. Foreign perception compared to self perception are 2 very different things.

Vero wrote:Or are you talking about the illegal aliens that have come here in hopes of a better life, work hard, do not exploit the systems, and work to obtain a citizenship / green card? They should have taken the steps needed before they jumped the border, but they are doing it now and aren't harming society so I can look past it.

If one can overlook the importance of enforcing the rule of law it's not unreasonable to look the other way and let upstanding illegal immigrants become ... non-illegal immigrants.

spunky little bastards. very american, darwinian and pioneering and all that.

doesn't mean you shouldn't try and do everything you can to stop them at the border.

akira5665 wrote:
If the worlds wealth was a little more evenly distributed, it would probably not happen that much any more.

I think the people that are responsible are the people in power. It really is not up to those who sometimes don't even have the power to vote in thier own country.

Australia is one of the best countries in the world for Multi-culturalism/blending.
I have heard though that internationally we are considered some of the worst racists though. Foreign perception compared to self perception are 2 very different things.

What kind of disturbing videos? I've seen both illegal immigrants doing some pretty stupid gak, but also ignorant nativists as well.

I'd love to see your plan for coercing the wealthier nations into convincing their citizens that they are horrible for doing well and that taking a great deal of their paycheck to give out on the principle evenly distributing it is for the best. Would you like to start by giving half your paycheck or more every month? Also have to disband non-governmental charities because people aren't going to have the money to donate anyway. Besides, if it is just done by people and not forced on them by their governments, is it really being done?

Excluding certain felony convictions, anyone over the age of 18 can vote. The people who don't have a say, are non-citizens and I'd be willing to bet there aren't to many countries where non-citizens get to elect governmental leaders, whether there legally or not.

I'm not sure the Aborigines would agree with Australia being the best for multiculturalism/blending. Many of the issues are a little moot when considering that Australia is an island. Not going to get a big influx of people just walking across the border now are you?

"I'm not sure the Aborigines would agree with Australia being the best for multiculturalism/blending. Many of the issues are a little moot when considering that Australia is an island. Not going to get a big influx of people just walking across the border now are you?"-Ahtman

Absolutely the indigenous peoples of this country have got it rough. I actually think it is disgraceful.

But for border jumpers.......we have our share mate. Indonesia is a days boat ride away, and so is east Timor.

I was in the RAN for 4 years. If I had a dollar for every illegal interdiction we handled.......
I would have a full head of hair and be dating.....hmmmmm Liv tyler!!!!!!

And besides Aht, there are some countries where being over 18 is moot. If you are a female, there are some countries where you CANNOT vote.

Well I'm not talking about other countries. As much fun as it would be to tell the rest of the world how to live, I'm not sure they want others telling them they are wrong because they don't do it like you do. I don't like how Saudi Arabia treats it's women, but I'm not a Saudi, I don't live there, and I'm not sure that it actually makes me a better person to wag my finger at them and say "Well I wouldn't do it that way".

With the institution of a global police force and suppression of different cultures we can probably all do the same thing and think the same things are right.

Good call Aht. Such a messy topic for me to say anything about America, and the IA probs/?

If I wagged a finger at some people they would probably cut it off!! lol

My nickname is Johnny 9-fingers.......lol

Tacobake wrote:
If one can overlook the importance of enforcing the rule of law it's not unreasonable to look the other way and let upstanding illegal immigrants become ... non-illegal immigrants.

spunky little bastards. very american, darwinian and pioneering and all that.

doesn't mean you shouldn't try and do everything you can to stop them at the border.

Show me an upstanding illegal immigrant, and i'll show you one that I can look past the fact that they are illegal.

Ok how did Australia and other countries get involved in this thread? I know these countries have problems but I am talking about USA in this thread.

Anyone heard about MS13? A majority of their members are illegal. Has anyone been in a area in which illegal’s are a great amount of the population? I have been (I asked them if they had a green card) in Atl, GA and I have seen apartment complexes go to hell. They (the illegal’s) will rent one apartment but several people will live their. Also, when they get hurt or have a baby and can not pay who do you think pays for it?

Now you probably are saying "Man this guy is a racist and needs to go to another board for this c**p", I just wanted the opinion of the gaming world.

Ouch.

We all knew this was going to be interesting!

I'll keep watching.....

As a legal immigrant to the US, I feel that if someone isn't willing to follow the rules to get here, they probably won't follow the rules once they are here, and should be deported. I've jumped through my hoops, there's no reason anyone else should get around it. And I'm very much against "amnesty" for illegals, as, in my opinion, that encourages more people to break the rules in the hopes that they'll also be granted amnesty for some reason. We have rules for a reason...

That said, I also think the rules are too extreme at the moment. That's not an excuse to break them, but they do need to be re-examined. I think there is a need for immigrant labour to do the jobs that need doing, but that no one else is willing to do. Immigrants made this country what it is today, and closing those doors isn't the right answer.

So, in short, change the rules, and make people follow them.

P.S. I'm not a citizen because it costs close to a grand to become one, although the only things I can't do (as a permanent resident) are vote and serve jury duty... That's an awful lot of money to be allowed to vote for crappy candidates and get my $17/day as a juror.

Well, citizenship also prevents you from ever being deported. Permanent residency can always be revoked, most commonly if you were convicted of a crime.

Also, depending on your home country’s diplomatic status, getting an American citizenship (and thus passport) can make traveling easier.

My wife’s Bulgarian, and prior to Bulgaria joining the EU this year, she had to request a visa just for us to vacation in England. Pain in the backside. Of course, now that they’ve joined the EU we’ve jokingly considered me getting a Bulgarian citizenship and passport, just because I could use the shorter customs lines when traveling in all the EU countries.

As for illegal immigrants, I tend to agree that it’s a bit of a hot topic for this forum.

I am largely of the mind that this country was founded on immigration, and the rules now are probably a bit too tight and the monetary costs (it is NOT cheap, folks) perhaps a bit high.

I don’t like the idea of rewarding people for doing something illegal, but it’s an undeniable reality that different standards of living and differing levels of wealth in different countries will ALWAYS cause this to happen. It’s also a fact that the cheap labor these folks provide is a significant factor in our economy.

I think the focus on enforcement need to be moved more to the companies who employ people illegally, paying them criminally low wages, and hiding all sorts of violations of worker safety, working hours, etc, etc. There needs to be a stronger mechanism in place for investigating and inspecting the businesses, and imposing fines that are large enough that they don’t just get written off as trivial “cost of doing business” expenses which are outweighed by the money they save by employing people illegally. If these jobs weren’t there, people wouldn’t come over. Or if they paid people a living wage, the people holding them could actually afford to pay taxes, apply for work visas, permanent residency, and then citizenship.

Yeah there are not to many perks about being a legal citizen but being illegal is. Being illegal you dont have to pay taxes (yes you will have a lower income), dont have to pay for your medical problems, you are above the law (cops can not ask if your illegal or legal), and a free trip back home (I know of Mexicans who did this in Atl.)

I don't know... I think this qualifies as "off-topic."

I have a few sentences on the topic.

Show me an upstanding illegal immigrant, and i'll show you one that I can look past the fact that they are illegal.

By
upstanding," do you mean one who... say... doesn't break the law? Or, perhaps, who hasn't committed any felonies?
I guess you won't find any "upstanding illegal immigrants," as they had to break the law to BECOME an "upstanding illegal immigrant."

There is no such thing. The term is an oxymoron.

I think Redbeard said it best. Foreign born or not, my friend, we could use more people in this great country of ours (stress OURS) with such a great opinion. I agree 100% with you here.

Personally, I think we should change our immigration laws. they're archaic.
That being said, no laws should provide amnesty or anything construed as such (staying here and paying a fine is close enough to amnesty for me).

What do I think?

I think we need to give ALL illegal aliens 3 months in which to register. At the end of 3 months, everyone who registered and every UNREGISTERED illegal alien we catch gets shipped back "home." Illegal aliens do not get to request special treatment or status as victims of persecution in their home countries, etc. Tough schlitz!

Now, they can APPLY for LEGAL status. Shoot! Be nice! Let those who register get their applications for LEGAL status on file the same day that they register as illegal. Fast track those who decide to follow the "right" path. I support that.

Give preference for legal status to those who registered. They get the first wave(s) of legal immigrant return status. This, of course, being a separate and lower priority to those who started the process properly from the start and NEVER came here illegally.

Once you've been deported as an unregistered illegal immigrant, you have ONE shot to do it right. If you're caught here again without having followed the newly estalished legal channels, you're in for a world of hurt. First off, you will NEVER get a chance to come here legally again. My father always had a saying... "F*** me once, shame on you. F*** me twice, shame on ME. Either way, there is no third chance."

This is the point where my thoughts get "gray" and I'm not totally decided.

There's a small part of me who supports execution or capital punishment at the third attempt (Egypt will cut off a hand for stealing. Maybe we cut off a foot?) for serial illegal imigrants... but it is only a miniscule part of me, which would never actually win the argument against the larger part of me who finds the idea abhorrant and is shocked that I'd even entertain such thoughts.

I don't know. We need a punishment to keep illegal immigrants away. One that will make them AFRAID to jump our borders.

Putting them in jail won't work. Three squares & a bed? Shoot! That's why they came here in the first place.
Shipping them back? They just turn right around and jump the border again.


Eric

Immigration is in no way clear waters to navigate. The United States is a country of immigrants, and therefore has a proud tradition of violence, oppression, and hatred towards immigrants. The same rhetoric (they steal jobs, they cause crime, they subvert american ideals,) used in today's immigration debate were used against pretty much every immigrant population at one point or another. Examples being the Polish, Irish, Chinese, Japanese, and now Latinos.

America is one of the most wealthy countries in the world and also a country where there are channels for social elevation. The American Dream is anybody can make it with hard work, determination, and strong values. While this is not exactly accurate, as trying to become a lawyer when high schools in working class communities are in shambles, scholarship opportunities are not effectively promoted, and the cost of tuition of higher education continues to sky rocket well beyond pace with assistance levels is very difficult and many do not make it, America is still the land of opportunity. So long as America is prosperous, people will want to come.

But America needs immigration, and lots of it. Immigrants primarily fill jobs that are not taken by citizens and are so exploited by criminally low wages. If you are an American and you do not want grapes or strawberries to go up to 20$ a pound, then you should respect that some person, generally just looking for a way to survive, is picking them for peanuts. Our economy would suffer greatly without immigrants, illegal and legal, and while immigrants do use some social programs like healthcare or education, many of them do pay taxes (sales tax, government deductions from paychecks as employers still must account for money used to pay dummy employees). While there are going to be some who abuse the system, there are just as many american citizens who abuse these social services as well.

It is a difficult question to ponder, as a sure fire way to curb illegal immigration is to severely crack down on employers of illegal immigration. Yet, this would severely damage the economy, raising prices for the average citizen, and generally be bad news. There are few good answers.

I feel the most important aspect of the conversation is understanding that immigrants are still people, they deserve respect as human beings, and hateful rhetoric only seeks to ensure violence and corruption of decency for both sides. America is in a symbiotic relationship with immigrants, as it always has been, and so harming one group will only harm the other. However, it is hard to say that aiding one will aid the other. (A free reign open border, come one, come all may not work as it once did)

And fun immigration fact:

The first group of people to illegally cross the U.S./Mexican border were actually the Chinese. After the Exclusion act, many Chinese traveled to Mexico to cross the border north.

*shooting star*
The More you know...

I believe that IAs only bring positive benefits to the US as a whole. The arguments which suppose that they simply deprive us of jobs and tax money are generally far too narrow in scope to appreciate the true benefits of unregistered workers. When you employ a person who is not a citizen you do not have to pay him a standard wage, this massively cuts down on the costs of elementary services which most Americans take for granted. As someone else already mentioned, without illegal immigrants the price of produce, as one example, would skyrocket. Its essentially the same thing as Nike outsourcing production of its shoes to Thailand and Singapore, just in reverse. Thus illegals do provide our nation with an essential service for the tax dollars we spend on their care, economic security. Investing in those individuals who do not pay taxes is, for all intents and purposes, an investment in the financial fidelity of those of us who are citizens.

dogma wrote:I believe that IAs only bring positive benefits to the US as a whole. The arguments which suppose that they simply deprive us of jobs and tax money are generally far too narrow in scope to appreciate the true benefits of unregistered workers. When you employ a person who is not a citizen you do not have to pay him a standard wage, this massively cuts down on the costs of elementary services which most Americans take for granted. As someone else already mentioned, without illegal immigrants the price of produce, as one example, would skyrocket. Its essentially the same thing as Nike outsourcing production of its shoes to Thailand and Singapore, just in reverse. Thus illegals do provide our nation with an essential service for the tax dollars we spend on their care, economic security. Investing in those individuals who do not pay taxes is, for all intents and purposes, an investment in the financial fidelity of those of us who are citizens.

I am sure all the people who used to work in construction would agree with you. Only positive benefits.

Will you be saying the same thing when illegals smuggling a nuke light up NY?

jfrazell wrote:

dogma wrote:I believe that IAs only bring positive benefits to the US as a whole. The arguments which suppose that they simply deprive us of jobs and tax money are generally far too narrow in scope to appreciate the true benefits of unregistered workers. When you employ a person who is not a citizen you do not have to pay him a standard wage, this massively cuts down on the costs of elementary services which most Americans take for granted. As someone else already mentioned, without illegal immigrants the price of produce, as one example, would skyrocket. Its essentially the same thing as Nike outsourcing production of its shoes to Thailand and Singapore, just in reverse. Thus illegals do provide our nation with an essential service for the tax dollars we spend on their care, economic security. Investing in those individuals who do not pay taxes is, for all intents and purposes, an investment in the financial fidelity of those of us who are citizens.

I am sure all the people who used to work in construction would agree with you. Only positive benefits.

Will you be saying the same thing when illegals smuggling a nuke light up NY?

It seems extreme to liken a Salvadorian migrant worker with aspirations of living a life where they can make more than a few US dollars a day to a fundamentalist terrorist. A person that had the funding and connections to procure a nuclear weapon would also have the funding and connections to enter the United States, regardless of immigration laws. (Unless you want to go a complete closed border, we just need walls since the oceans flanking us make a perfect moat) Money should be spent on supporting agencies that protect against these extremists rather than funding completely unfeasible immigration measures like walls or camera studded borders that mostly just screw over the guy that picks your produce or helps you move for 50$.

lemurking23 wrote:

jfrazell wrote:

dogma wrote:I believe that IAs only bring positive benefits to the US as a whole. The arguments which suppose that they simply deprive us of jobs and tax money are generally far too narrow in scope to appreciate the true benefits of unregistered workers. When you employ a person who is not a citizen you do not have to pay him a standard wage, this massively cuts down on the costs of elementary services which most Americans take for granted. As someone else already mentioned, without illegal immigrants the price of produce, as one example, would skyrocket. Its essentially the same thing as Nike outsourcing production of its shoes to Thailand and Singapore, just in reverse. Thus illegals do provide our nation with an essential service for the tax dollars we spend on their care, economic security. Investing in those individuals who do not pay taxes is, for all intents and purposes, an investment in the financial fidelity of those of us who are citizens.

I am sure all the people who used to work in construction would agree with you. Only positive benefits.

Will you be saying the same thing when illegals smuggling a nuke light up NY?

It seems extreme to liken a Salvadorian migrant worker with aspirations of living a life where they can make more than a few US dollars a day to a fundamentalist terrorist. A person that had the funding and connections to procure a nuclear weapon would also have the funding and connections to enter the United States, regardless of immigration laws. (Unless you want to go a complete closed border, we just need walls since the oceans flanking us make a perfect moat) Money should be spent on supporting agencies that protect against these extremists rather than funding completely unfeasible immigration measures like walls or camera studded borders that mostly just screw over the guy that picks your produce or helps you move for 50$.

Its completely comparable. Both are here illegally. I noticed you glossed over the loss of the entire construction industry, but I'm sure the stock reply will be "they're just doing the jobs Americans don't want to do."

jfrazell wrote: Its completely comparable. Both are here illegally. I noticed you glossed over the loss of the entire construction industry, but I'm sure the stock reply will be "they're just doing the jobs Americans don't want to do."

The fact that they enter the country illegally is comparable, not their intent or their effect. Just because an Orange grows on a tree does not make it the same as a Leaf.

I do willfully concede the construction aspect, having worked in construction to pay for my education, I spoke more Spanish that I did English and many people on my crew were not native born. However, the Foreman was native. The owner was native. Everyone who made the active decision to hire undocumented help to make more money for themselves were native. Why are you not likening these people to terrorists?

They are not illegal.

But they are criminals.

I take it back I'm likening them to terrorists as well. Anyone who supports illegal aliens are committing illegal activities. Put them in jail for 20 years and I'd be slightly happy.



Note I've not said a word about LEGAL immigrants. The powers that be have taken great pains to confuse the two. I've also not said anything about the concept of seasonal laborers.

dogma wrote:I believe that IAs only bring positive benefits to the US as a whole. The arguments which suppose that they simply deprive us of jobs and tax money are generally far too narrow in scope to appreciate the true benefits of unregistered workers. When you employ a person who is not a citizen you do not have to pay him a standard wage, this massively cuts down on the costs of elementary services which most Americans take for granted. As someone else already mentioned, without illegal immigrants the price of produce, as one example, would skyrocket. Its essentially the same thing as Nike outsourcing production of its shoes to Thailand and Singapore, just in reverse. Thus illegals do provide our nation with an essential service for the tax dollars we spend on their care, economic security. Investing in those individuals who do not pay taxes is, for all intents and purposes, an investment in the financial fidelity of those of us who are citizens.

The price of produce would go up, but unskilled individuals currently on welfare could get jobs picking it. I'm not entirely sure that makes things worse off on the whole for society.

It's outrageous that farmers, developers, etc. don't need to pay a living wage to their employees. Even if I do need to pay a little more, I'd still be happier knowing that the people who made the product can afford to save for a house, pay medical bills, put their kids through college, etc.

All of those things are good for the nation. In the 1920's Henry Ford reduced working hours and doubled his workers wages and the working class he helped create is central the economy. Widespread home ownership and upward mobility are some of the main reasons why there was never a socialist revolution in American.

Having undocumented workers making sub-living wages destabilizes things. They don't contribute to the economy in the same way and by lowering wages they make it harder for low income earners to pull themselves out of poverty. Having a second-class of non-citizens is also dangerous. Being cut-off from society, there's less assimilation. Germany is having huge amount of trouble now with its large Turkish population because it denied them citizenship and opportunities and they never became part of mainstream German society as a result. America assimilated waves of Irish, Eastern European, Hispanic and Asian immigrants by giving them the rights of citizenship and the opportunity to become Americans.

There needs to be multiple approaches. One is to secure the borders since no country can absorb an unlimited influx of immigrants. There also needs to be recognition of the people already here and a move to bring them into mainstream society so that they become Americans and have a vested interest in the success of the nation (this probably means some sort of amnesty for the millions of illegal immigrants that have been here for years). Finally, there needs to be strong enforcement of minimum wage laws, and a revival of trade unionism to ensure that employers pay all their workers a fair wage. Once that happens employers will have no incentive to hire illegal workers, and without jobs illegal immigrants won't have any reason to stay.

dogma wrote:

There needs to be multiple approaches. One is to secure the borders since no country can absorb an unlimited influx of immigrants. There also needs to be recognition of the people already here and a move to bring them into mainstream society so that they become Americans and have a vested interest in the success of the nation (this probably means some sort of amnesty for the millions of illegal immigrants that have been here for years). Finally, there needs to be strong enforcement of minimum wage laws, and a revival of trade unionism to ensure that employers pay all their workers a fair wage. Once that happens employers will have no incentive to hire illegal workers, and without jobs illegal immigrants won't have any reason to stay.

I would only add one thing. All imports of goods and services must abide by the same regulations. You want to import shoes here, you have to pay US minimum wage there.

jfrazell wrote:

Asmodai wrote:

There needs to be multiple approaches. One is to secure the borders since no country can absorb an unlimited influx of immigrants. There also needs to be recognition of the people already here and a move to bring them into mainstream society so that they become Americans and have a vested interest in the success of the nation (this probably means some sort of amnesty for the millions of illegal immigrants that have been here for years). Finally, there needs to be strong enforcement of minimum wage laws, and a revival of trade unionism to ensure that employers pay all their workers a fair wage. Once that happens employers will have no incentive to hire illegal workers, and without jobs illegal immigrants won't have any reason to stay.

I would only add one thing. All imports of goods and services must abide by the same regulations. You want to import shoes here, you have to pay US minimum wage there.

You're right of course, you have to pay minimum wage to the DOCUMENTED employees of the overseas factory. Needless to say social security numbers and other from-birth forms of individual identification are not standard in most of the major low-cost manufacturing nations. So yes, you have to pay minimum wage to the 20-30 people who are reportedly working in a factory that may employ several hundred individuals.

Asmodai : In any case, I was not intending to speak to the fairness of the current system. My political views are somewhat outside the standard spectrum and really do not pertain to America's immediate well-being. When I say America only benefits from IAs I meant it in that I feel as though IAs push the United States towards the kind of cultural shift that I believe is necesary to rectify the current climate of political indifference. I should have stated this in my original post, but being well immersed in a collegiate atmosphere for the last 4 years has made me somewhat apt to skip such points. I do agree that if the desired result is continued American prosperity then the plan you outlined is indeed the most effective; a mix of approaches almost always being the best solution to the problem.

I dont know why people think they can just ignore our laws come here, have kids born here then fill thier heads with poison about how awful America is. It is only screwing themselves over. My mother had to wait 5 years to attain her VISA so that she could come here legally and eventually became a citizen.

The main thing that bothers be is that people throw legal and ILLEGAL immigrants in the same group when the two are nothing alike. One group respects our laws and is infinite times more likely to assimilate into our culture. While the other comes here with a chip on thier shoulder thinking that we owe them somthing and then start to call us all a bunch of racists. If we are so racist then why do they come here. Yes immigration is good for an economy, but the descruction of our language and culture is not.

The second thing that bothers me is when people think the illegal immigration issue is a "race" issue. To me anyone who says that is the racists because they are sterotyping a particular group and saying that they are the only illegals in our country. There was one point in the 90's that there were more illegals crossing from Europe and Canada than from latin America. Also, I dont know why people assume that everyone in a certain group of people feels the same way about immigration. Thinking along these "racial" lines only goes to show how pathetic human beings are in general. They usually make assuumptions about one another based on what they look like. Many people even dictate thier own behavior based on their own genetic background. Allowing genetic heritage to define who we are as individuals is the gateway to real discrimination. One day we will realize that we are all human beings and that we are all the same, although currently we like to think that we are not. Due to the ethnic diversity of America, it will be the social battleground for this to take place. If people actually stop and THINK they will realize we are probably the least racist if not then one of the least racist countries on the planet. But people rather discuss mistakes that we made 150 years ago. GET OVER IT.

As a point of fact you can't destroy language or culture. Both articles are organic ideas which evolve over time and can never really be replaced.

Also, the vast majority of the voice against American immigration policies is not from illegals, but rather legal immigrants and college students. The general point of these movements is not that America is bad, but that it can be improved.

I'd comment on your discussion of race, but I feel that including that in the conversation is certain to lock this thread, and I'm enjoying reading everyone's opinion.

Mostly from legal immigrants and college students? Is this a joke or just old fashioned flame bait?

dogma wrote:

jfrazell wrote:

Asmodai wrote:

There needs to be multiple approaches. One is to secure the borders since no country can absorb an unlimited influx of immigrants. There also needs to be recognition of the people already here and a move to bring them into mainstream society so that they become Americans and have a vested interest in the success of the nation (this probably means some sort of amnesty for the millions of illegal immigrants that have been here for years). Finally, there needs to be strong enforcement of minimum wage laws, and a revival of trade unionism to ensure that employers pay all their workers a fair wage. Once that happens employers will have no incentive to hire illegal workers, and without jobs illegal immigrants won't have any reason to stay.

I would only add one thing. All imports of goods and services must abide by the same regulations. You want to import shoes here, you have to pay US minimum wage there.

You're right of course, you have to pay minimum wage to the DOCUMENTED employees of the overseas factory. Needless to say social security numbers and other from-birth forms of individual identification are not standard in most of the major low-cost manufacturing nations. So yes, you have to pay minimum wage to the 20-30 people who are reportedly working in a factory that may employ several hundred individuals.

Maybe at the same time we could also monitor the factories for lead paint...