Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I have seen the gunfex config and agree with its effectiveness. I have yet to play against one of these nidzilla lists but I have seen the results in GT's and caught some tail end action of a few games. My 12 year old son really wants a nid army. I am going to go with the stealer shock. I saw voodoo boys cheap-o version and jumped all over that warstore bits deal (Thanks for the heads-up, voodoo).

My question about the gunfex deals with the barbed strangler. For 25 points, is it worth putting scything talons, adrenal glands (WS), tail mace, and implant attack on it instead of the BS in the event it does get assaulted and/or gets into combat somehow after the stealers have engaged the enemy in force.

I know it splits the role of the fex, but is that such a bad thing in a stealer shock? It still will shoot the VC at vehicles before it gets locked in hth. It just seems that 2 attacks will insure it will get defeated in hth just like a SM dread. My son wants lots of big bugs (go figure), so I will be getting 3 of these bad boys. On the plus side, less models means I will get it painted before Santa comes down the chimney.

Implant attack on a Fex is not worth it at all. Anything that the Fex would have a shot at killing in HtH will suffer instant death from its S10 attacks. Having a Fex as a combat monster is not the best idea given the rest of the army. You are better off using the Fexes for defensive purposes such as making a wall of T7 W5 2+ AS creatures that will keep your opponent from shooting at them. Having the S10 weapons in the army allows you the opportunity to open up those large cans that are out there such as Predators, Land Raiders, Hammer Heads, and the like.

The Role of the Fex is not to win in HtH but rather to hold up the enemy until the Stealers, Ravenors or Warriors can get to the combat to change the tide of battle. Once the Stealers make it into combat the game is virtualy over for your opponent. Its best to max out the ranged weaponry and defensive abilities of the Fex so it will insure that your Stealers will get into combat without suffering any casualties on the march to the other side of the board.

Even with the extra attack, the Fex will still suck in CC and get smacked around by Power Fists and Rending which are the main MC hunters out there. Better to give him his gun so you can pen some vehicles with S8 and it's not half bad against infantry hordes in a pinch, if it hits.

My rule of thumb is to never make a Nid list without at least two of those gunfex's in it. You simply need long-range anti-tank in this game and without it your son will have very frustrating games against an opponent with a decent amount of armor.

dornsfist wrote:I have seen the gunfex config and agree with its effectiveness. I have yet to play against one of these nidzilla lists but I have seen the results in GT's and caught some tail end action of a few games. My 12 year old son really wants a nid army. I am going to go with the stealer shock. I saw voodoo boys cheap-o version and jumped all over that warstore bits deal (Thanks for the heads-up, voodoo).

My question about the gunfex deals with the barbed strangler. For 25 points, is it worth putting scything talons, adrenal glands (WS), tail mace, and implant attack on it instead of the BS in the event it does get assaulted and/or gets into combat somehow after the stealers have engaged the enemy in force.

I know it splits the role of the fex, but is that such a bad thing in a stealer shock? It still will shoot the VC at vehicles before it gets locked in hth. It just seems that 2 attacks will insure it will get defeated in hth just like a SM dread. My son wants lots of big bugs (go figure), so I will be getting 3 of these bad boys. On the plus side, less models means I will get it painted before Santa comes down the chimney.

I would point you to my carnifex article (it is still up in the articles section) but the 2nd page of the article was lost in the forum transition and since the article system is currently being worked on we aren't bothering to fix that little issue right now. Perhaps I'll attach a word document version of the article to read.


But anyway, the short answer is no: it is definitely not worth it to lose the Barbed Strangler, especially in a stealer shock list.

The most important thing you need in a Stealer shock list is AT fire and the Gunfex does so admirably. Don't be fooled: The S8 Barbed Strangler shot definitely does kick in and do damage against vehicles every now and then, especially considering that it can cause penetrating hits against close-topped vehicles.

Also, the blast tends to force opponents to keep their units in a spread out formation which is crucial in allowing your stealers to engage only part of the enemy unit on the charge and make sure they don't wipe the enemy unit out in a single round (which would then leave the stealers out in the open to be shot on the opponent's turn).


In a stealer shock army, the enemy is usually pretty focused on killing the scuttling stealers to worry about assaulting the Gunfexes too much and in most missions the Gunfexes stand around holding the back table quarters or mid-table objectives. You really don't have the need to try to send them into combat. . .either your opponent wiped out your stealers (in which case you're in big trouble anyway) or your stealers did their job and most of the enemy infantry is dead. Either way your Gunfexes just need to sit back in cover and blast away at enemy vehicles first and then (if they destroy them all) focus on any remaining enemy infantry units.

At 1,850 points all stealer shock armies should have either 2 Gunfexes and 3 Zoanthropes or 3 Gunfexes. Otherwise you will absolutely flail against any heavily mechanized army.

I prefer the gunwall to the stealer shock. Shooty lists can kill the stealers, and deal with the damage the carnifexes can pump out.

On the other hand, the gunwall is very resilient to shooty lists; and it can deal with horde style IG which tends to blow the stealer shock lists away.

Mechanized lists have a hard time dealing with the gunwall, but if you can focus your anti-infantry on the stealers and put heavy shots into the carnifexes when and if they get in range....it's not an uphill battle.

3 Gunfexes will get rolled by most armies at 1850. At least the ones I've built or help people build at my FLGS.

What is a gunwall?

6 Carnifexes, 2 Hive Tyrants lined up across the middle of the board; everything is base to base so without barrage weapons you can't shoot behind it. Park some stealers/gaunts behind it, and start marching across the board. Sometimes I vary it, but this list is pretty effective. It's sort of a march of doom list. I try not to hum "dum dum de dum de dum de dum". lol

I posted my nids list:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/205341.page

Sounds nasty till someone rolls Escalation.

True.

Since escalation is D U M B ... I can only hope they remove it as the unskillfest it is in tournaments.

Or keep adding rules to make it not 'as bad' like "reserves come on from any board edge" which enhance most armies screwed by escalation.

Who knows, tournament attendance can keep going down I guess.

I second what has already been said. i dropped a super dakka fex into my wifes nid army to jump her points(close to 300 points with all the bells and whistles) up fast.

It is made as durable as it can get and as shooty as i could make it with the points-regeneration, improved BS, extra wound, extra toughness, improved strength etc with a venom cannon, barbed strangler and a spineback that counts as a twin linked assault 2 S6 spinefist as well as frag grenades if somebody happens to get within 12" of it.

It rarely sees close combat though, although it did assault a tau gundrone squad with good effect once.

Read the article by yakface (again) and I came up with this:
Carnifex x3 w/ venom cannon, enhanced senses, reinforced chitin, extended carapace
(these seemed to be mandatory for the stealer shock as a long-range anti-tank gun platform)
I will also add some hth with the scything talons, mace tail, adrenal glands (WS) as I am not convinced of the effectiveness of a barbed strangler on a carnifex hitting on a coin flip. It seems those 20 points are better spent on the chance it gets attacked to at least cause some damage and if the game/terrain calls for the opportunity for him to perform that shield wall tactic (which I think he likes).

What are peoples thoughts on the bonded exoskeleton? Seems like a good buy with all those plasmaguns/rifles, autocannons, ion cannons out there.

When you're going to have 36+ genestealers in the list, why are you worried about whether or not your Carnifexes have one extra attack?

If a Carnifex gets assaulted, kill whatever jumped the Carni with a unit of 'Stealers. No matter how many extra CC upgrades you give the Carni, you're not going to make him too scary to be assaulted, and he's still probably going to get beat down by hidden fists, unless you jump the unit with a bunch of 'Stealers. Adding CC biomorphs that might be used for 2-3 assault phases rather than the 'Strangler that will be used for 6 phases (or until killed) is cost inefficient.

Adding points to Carnifexes subtracts them from the rest of your list.

Minimizing your cost in while maximizing your effects out is key to effective list creation.

Super fexes die to lascannons, and cost way too much.

YMMV.

Super fexes die to lascannons, and cost way too much.

There aren't that many las cannons normally on the table that make that an issue overmuch. what really sucks for a carifex are them sneaky eldar pathfinders with AP1 sniper rifles that wound on a 4+

Stelek wrote:

Super fexes die to lascannons, and cost way too much.
.

Most list never need to kill a super fex. Hell I just run from them with my foot sloging guard. The trick is to kite the poor guy about while other squads shoot at him.

Who will your son be playing?

If it's just friendly matches, then go for the Talons. They make the Carni look badass. A BS is a hell of a lot better, but for friendly play you don't exactly need to fully optimise.

It will be his army to play friendly games, but I might use it as a break from my shooty marines in tourney play next season. On a side note, I received the genestealers from the warstore. I was reading a thread recently about WYSIWYG and extended carapace. They are all going to have it, but I don't see any little 'horns' on the sprues anywhere. Also, for scuttlers, would putting a ripper on each base be enough to convey that biomorph? Reason why I'm asking is because he wants to use the broodlord and his retinue can't benefit from scuttling so there will be genestealers on the table without scuttling. I figured the ext. car. won't be an issue as every model on the table would have it. Any thoughts?

I really doubt anyone would mind about the EC if it applies to all 'stealers (and honestly, when's the last time you saw 'stealers fielded without it?).

Scuttlers is slightly more iffy, but put it this way: by the time the model's on the table for you to look at it, Scuttlers has already been used (or not), so does it really matter? I can't see any confusion arising there, either.

tegeus-Cromis wrote:I really doubt anyone would mind about the EC if it applies to all 'stealers (and honestly, when's the last time you saw 'stealers fielded without it?).

Scuttlers is slightly more iffy, but put it this way: by the time the model's on the table for you to look at it, Scuttlers has already been used (or not), so does it really matter? I can't see any confusion arising there, either.

EC isn’t cheap and there are a lot of AP4 weapons out there that generally won’t have any other suitable targets to fire at in a tyranid list… you can often see whole units of ‘stealers wiped out without ever getting to make a single armour save. This happens often enough that there’s a fair argument for taking ‘stealers without any upgrades. Or possibly taking scuttlers, and then relying on terrain to get you across the board.

So I don’t model any extra carapace on my ‘stealers, as sometimes they have it and sometimes they don’t. It’s pretty easy for my opponent, as either all my ‘stealers have EC, or none of them do.

It’s only really an issue when you take some units with EC and some without, at which point you’ll need something to separate the more armoured ‘stealers. But only taking some with higher armour is a pretty bad idea.


On the topic of the carnifex… you pay a lot of points to turn a shooty carnifex into shooty carnifex with modest CC abilities, while remaining vulnerable to every powerfist unit, rending unit and melee beast out there, and remaining about as effective against every unit lacking one of those options. In addition to losing the extra gun, this is pretty much just always a bad idea, in a game with any kind of competitiveness to it at all. I just play with mates and am happy to take super-melee carnifex, super-upgraded ‘stealers, masses of tyranid warriors and all kinds of other choices that are pretty ineffective for their points cost, but I won’t take that kind of hybrid shooty melee fex – it’s just too much of a bad idea.

I’ve played around with just taking the scythe tail against specific opposition armies that specialize in masses of assault troops, like Space Wolves and old-school orks, and have had some success. It’ll only come into play if I get flanked or drop-podded, but can make all difference in clearing out the protective wounds before the powerfist gets me,… but more than anything it’s a single upgrade that’s very cheap. Spending any more points and you’re looking at points that you will really miss elsewhere in your list.

In retrospect, I was way off-base about EC. There's what you said, and I also just remembered the "hide the stealers" game nidzilla relies on, in which case the save of the stealers is irrelevant.

sebster wrote:

tegeus-Cromis wrote:I really doubt anyone would mind about the EC if it applies to all 'stealers (and honestly, when's the last time you saw 'stealers fielded without it?).

Scuttlers is slightly more iffy, but put it this way: by the time the model's on the table for you to look at it, Scuttlers has already been used (or not), so does it really matter? I can't see any confusion arising there, either.

EC isn’t cheap and there are a lot of AP4 weapons out there that generally won’t have any other suitable targets to fire at in a tyranid list… you can often see whole units of ‘stealers wiped out without ever getting to make a single armour save. This happens often enough that there’s a fair argument for taking ‘stealers without any upgrades. Or possibly taking scuttlers, and then relying on terrain to get you across the board.

So I don’t model any extra carapace on my ‘stealers, as sometimes they have it and sometimes they don’t. It’s pretty easy for my opponent, as either all my ‘stealers have EC, or none of them do.

It’s only really an issue when you take some units with EC and some without, at which point you’ll need something to separate the more armoured ‘stealers. But only taking some with higher armour is a pretty bad idea.


On the topic of the carnifex… you pay a lot of points to turn a shooty carnifex into shooty carnifex with modest CC abilities, while remaining vulnerable to every powerfist unit, rending unit and melee beast out there, and remaining about as effective against every unit lacking one of those options. In addition to losing the extra gun, this is pretty much just always a bad idea, in a game with any kind of competitiveness to it at all. I just play with mates and am happy to take super-melee carnifex, super-upgraded ‘stealers, masses of tyranid warriors and all kinds of other choices that are pretty ineffective for their points cost, but I won’t take that kind of hybrid shooty melee fex – it’s just too much of a bad idea.

I’ve played around with just taking the scythe tail against specific opposition armies that specialize in masses of assault troops, like Space Wolves and old-school orks, and have had some success. It’ll only come into play if I get flanked or drop-podded, but can make all difference in clearing out the protective wounds before the powerfist gets me,… but more than anything it’s a single upgrade that’s very cheap. Spending any more points and you’re looking at points that you will really miss elsewhere in your list.

So do you not take sything talons either?

tegeus-Cromis wrote:In retrospect, I was way off-base about EC. There's what you said, and I also just remembered the "hide the stealers" game nidzilla relies on, in which case the save of the stealers is irrelevant.

Not true. The save means you can walk yourself into fleet assault range, and eat a round of bolter fire--and survive 50% of the wounds caused instead of suffering 100% losses.

====

Other question--I never take scything talons. Genestealers don't need it. I can kill everything with them as they are, why add points for no gain?

Also it makes them spiky and they hurt you/get tangled together enough as it is without scything talons.

The carnifex is going to have the venom cannon. For the 20 points that it costs for the barbed strangler that will hit on a coin flip, and glance/penetrate an AV12 vehicle on a coin flip, it will be lucky to do anything in the first half of the game. Turn 4, the opponent will have reached combat. Now it will need the hth. I understand the whole "keep it shooty" position, but I'm not convinced that the 20 points are not better spent on the sything talon, adrenal gland, toxic miasma to give it that dual role, especially if he wants to use the shieldwall tactic. It's not a terrible decision, just different. There will be three of the suckers out there. Also, he can add some elite shooty fex's later. I don't think it's fair to lay down the claim that the BS is the only way to load-out the HS fex and if you don't, you are somehow considered an idiot.
I'll be all right, just give me minute to compose myself.

Talons only add one more attack. Unless you give him an increased WS then it also only has a 50% chance to hit most units.
It's just that a Carnie armed to the teeth for close combat really isn't that great. Even if you gave hime claws and talons and tusks, you'd only average some like six attacks. Which means somehting like 3 dead meqs.
The barbed Strangler gives your carnie a way to earn points for an entire game. If you shoot into squads (there aren't allways vehivles to shoo at) then you have the oppertunity to wound an entire clumped squad. Skirting statistics here say someone did clump an entire tac squad and you with both shots you'll inflict somewhere around 18 wounds and kill 6 marines.

Now don't get me wrong, I wish that a CC fex was a good idea. You could argue that people might shoot at it because they are afraid of it, but people will shoot at a gun fex too, and it will earn points. GW just made cc fex's too slow and too costly for what they can do.

Now if you did want to take a cc fex despite my lecture, I'd run a swarm army. It's really the lots of gaunts and horma gaunts can lock down targets allowing you to catch up tp them with o'le carnie. even then I'de still give him a gun.

Close combat Carnies look great, and suck on the tabletop.

You keep a genestealer unit or two near your carnifexes, and you won't have to worry about CC as everyone will either stay away or run in and get dead.

Barbed strangler + venom cannon fexs give you an extra shot, and are totally useless against infantry. Even 1 TL Dev from a fex is nasty, and people avoid it with infantry. The VC/TL Dev fex still hurts vehicles, and can hurt infantry. Having to rely on the template hitting AND your opponent bunching up is not up to snuff.

OK, I DID read (what's left of) the Carnifex article in the articles section. Instant convert. I agree with most everything I saw there. Now I have the stupid question.

TL VC. I know some of you are slappin your forheads and mumblin about noobs right now, but the question wasn't actually answered in the article, and I'm that curious. THe purpose of the Fex is vs. skimmers and hi av. The barbed strangler is a coin toss. It's a lot of points for a 50-50 shot. Admittedly, the extra VC is giving oyu a 50-50 shot on the shot you missed initially with the first VC, but it's with a weapon 2 points higher in strength. So the choice between the two (Barbed Strangler or twin linking the VC you already have on the gunfex in the first place) seems to be whether you want the possibility of more hits with a weapon that can actually penetrate, or greater possibility of more hits (over time) with a higher strangth weapon that can only glance. For 15 points more.

Basically, it seems that you have a choice of rolling your third die on the VC, or on the BS, with the same chance to hit with either. Do I have it right?

Me personally, I am more concerned abotu the skimmers, eldar type. The carni seems the only way we have to deal with them short of a voodoo sacrifice.

Flame on...

Do as I suggested.

6 S8 Tyrant shots @ BS4 and 6 S10 Carnifex shots @ BS3 really is enough shooting.

Honest.

dornsfist wrote:The carnifex is going to have the venom cannon. For the 20 points that it costs for the barbed strangler that will hit on a coin flip, and glance/penetrate an AV12 vehicle on a coin flip, it will be lucky to do anything in the first half of the game. Turn 4, the opponent will have reached combat. Now it will need the hth. I understand the whole "keep it shooty" position, but I'm not convinced that the 20 points are not better spent on the sything talon, adrenal gland, toxic miasma to give it that dual role, especially if he wants to use the shieldwall tactic. It's not a terrible decision, just different. There will be three of the suckers out there. Also, he can add some elite shooty fex's later. I don't think it's fair to lay down the claim that the BS is the only way to load-out the HS fex and if you don't, you are somehow considered an idiot.
I'll be all right, just give me minute to compose myself.

Barbed strangler plus choir is a nasty combination, not to be underestimated.

I wonder if anyone has ever tried a VC + TL Devourers combo.

All this disscusion got me in a mood to revisit my tyranid dex. All this time I thought barbed strnagler was assault X not assault 1. I havn't actually played any games with them yet. So 2 str 7 stots might be better that on str 8. I'm too lazy to do the math right now, but I imagine it depends on the vehicle. since str8 at least has a chance to take down any armor it's probably the better option jsut because 9/10 times your fexs are shooting and heavier vehicles. Now if you knew your where play against say mech tau/eldar, it might be more than viable.

I can only say that S10 on carnifexes is really enough if you've built your army so a land raider terminator rush list will get destroyed in CC if they make it into assault because you couldn't kill the LR.

You do not need to penetrate vehicles all the time. I'm quite happy with glancing the crap outta everything with my Tau and my Nids. Stuff dies.