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I seem to remember that two models may fire from the firing point on a rhino, but I can't find any truth to that memory in the rulebook. A new player asked me where to find it, and to my shame, I couldn't.

So, here's the question: How many models may fire from a firing point, and what is the reference?

IIRC, a chimera shows that it has two firing points (one on either side), and has three lasguns on each side for the transported unit to use. How many of those lasguns may the IG player fire? Since they are mounted in the vehicle, do they count as weapons that may be destroyed for a "Weapon Destroyed" result on the vehicle damage table?

I think its 1 for 1. So one fire point is equal to one model shooting out. Its covered under the Vehicle section of the Unit Type descriptions.

No idea about the Chrimera though tbh man sorry.

Firing points, per the rulebook, allow one or more models to fire from them.

Each vehicle traditionally says exactly how many models may fire from each fire point.

The Chaos Rhino strangely doesn't specify the amount of models that may fire from its firepoint (the top hatch). Loyalist Rhinos do say that 2 models may fire from the hatch.


The Chimera is the other problem child of the firepoint rules as they list all six lasguns as a single fire point and they don't specify how exactly that works. Do a search in this forum for other threads about Chimera lasgun questions and answers.

One thing you should know is that the Lasguns can't be chosen as a weapon destroyed because they are not S4.

yakface wrote:
The Chaos Rhino strangely doesn't specify the amount of models that may fire from its firepoint (the top hatch). Loyalist Rhinos do say that 2 models may fire from the hatch.

I've been seeing alot of people stating the entire squad can fire out of Chaos Rhino's. This can't be right can it?

Maybe Gav was too stupid to copy paste DA rhino rules...so, yeah! It's true...all 10 Space Marines can fire out of that huge Rhino with that gigantic firepoint...I pray to the Emperor, that that man will never write my beloveth Codex:Inquisition.

PS: If I'm talking too much about my C:=I= daydreams...let me know.

Just pity my poor opponents. 8 Thousands Sons and a Sorcerer firing out the top hatch of the Rhino should be brilliant!

Though I don't seriously think he ment for this to work like that. I'll limit it to two.

Found it here is what to IG codex states on page 45the chimera has six hull mounted lasguns which can be used by the passengers. ADDITIIONALLY one model may fire a weapon from the top hatch but this well make it count as opened topped for purposes of resolving shooting attacks in the enemys next trun

In keeping with Fire Point questions, I play Space Marines (not spase marienz... hurr!, and i'm not sorry ) and plan to start using fire points because none of my play group does. I've read the rules a number of times and have come up with a Tactical Squad with Plasma Gunner could move in their Rhino up to 12", the Plasma Gunner and one other rapid fire trooper could fire twice up to 12", and still constitute legal. Does anyone have a challenge for this or am I correct? It's likely common knowledge but I ask because i've never seen it used and don't want to misuse.

Also, I can't find a listing that says the Rhino and the unit inside form one "unit". Could I, keeping with the example above, move 6" in the Rhino, fire the tanks Storm Bolter at one target and fire the troops two weapons at another unit? Again could be common knowledge but I can't find where it is spelled out in the book. Thanks!

Seth

I believe the passengers in a non-fast vehicle still only get to fire if it moves up to 6" like the other weapons. Ork fast vehicle passengers could shoot at 12" (or 13" with red paint job) moves.

As the unit being carried is a separate unit from the vehicle they are able to fire at different units.

From what I've found page 63 of the rulebook says, "Any weapon of Strength 6 or below that is mounted on a vehicle is called a defensive weapon, whilst those of Strength 7 or greater are known as main weapons.", when defining what weapons can shoot on a tank during movement. No distinction is made here or in the troops shooting section on page 64 as to whether the same restrictions apply to troop carried weaponry, only that mounted weapons of strength 7 or higher are main weapons. Again, i'm looking for a rules citation if there is something I've overlooked so please keep digging

Thanks for the word on transports/troops splitting fire! I didn't want to do it without some supporting evidence

Seth

Also, pg 64 says "Infantry firing from vehicles count as moving if the vehicle moves, and may not fire at all if the vehicle moves faster than 12". This again seems to hold troop shooting seperate from vehicle mounted weapons fire and would allow embarked troops to shoot from any 'speed' of vehicle provided said vehicle did not move more than 12".

Rules for fire points for all vehicles can be found in the Wargear book.

I don't have that one.... time to raid the friends collections.

I dont see the isue. it has been establishe on a rhino.. Any stock rhino CHaos or other that the top hatch 2 people can fire from. Any one who trys to say a whole sqaud can fire from it, is looking for a whippy stick beat down!!...RAW or NOT!!!!..

As far as I can recall... unless otherwise stated a fireport allows one model to fire through it.

Lets look at a few type 4 codexes and a statement above:

From the chaos rhino all models within can fire from the firepoint as it is not defined how many can fire from it.
Fire points - 1
wording does not state that all may use it, simply states that the hatch can be opened and be used as a firepoint.

Rhino from the SM codex:
Firepoints - does not give a number.
Wording states that two models can fire from the top hatch.

Ork codex, Looted vehicle with hard top:
Fire points - does not give a number.
wording states it has three one to each side and one to the rear.

Ork codex battlewagon with hard top:
Fire points - does not give a number.
Wording states it has five, two to each side and one to the rear.

Now then... true, as it does not state explicitly that not all models can fire from the top hatch then in theory (rulebending charms glowing) this is true, the "firepoints - 1" does however make it harder to argue.

The SM rhino on the other hand specifically states that 2 models may fire from the top hatch so no problem there.

We then come to the orks, by the reasoning of the chaos "get to fire with all" interpretation this would allow all the orks to fire from ither one of the three fire points on the looted wagon, thus far it seems fairly acceptable...

Then however comes the battlewagon, 2 fire points to each side? why? if all can fire out of one why have two? do they all suddenly get to fire once each out of each of the two fire points to one side?

Naturally not.

The only reasonable explanation is that each fire point, unless specifically steted otherwise, will allow ONE model to fire out of it.

Thus the chaos rhino has 1 fire point and no special rules, thus one model may fire from it.

As for the chimera and its 6 fixed lasguns, the six lasguns can be fired by models inside the chimera and one model may fire from its hatch if it is opened, the main benefit of shooting with the 6 lasguns is that they do not cause the vehicle to count as being open topped as would a vehicle if its crew fires from fire points and does not have 3+ or better save.
Chimera opening top hatch is a good example.

My only question about the chimera is if the lasguns are considered to have a 360', 180' or 90' arc of fire based on their positioning on the vehicle.

fester wrote:As far as I can recall... unless otherwise stated a fireport allows one model to fire through it.

Nope. The rulebook specifies that a fire point allows 'one or more' models to fire through it. It leaves it up to the Fire and Access Point Appendix (which was left out of the rulebook and later published in the Wargear book) to spell out the actual number of models that can use them on each vehicle.

My only question about the chimera is if the lasguns are considered to have a 360', 180' or 90' arc of fire based on their positioning on the vehicle.

The lasguns have whatever arc you can physically move them through. Silly, and in step with GW's usual blindness concerning 'creative' modeling, but that's 40K for you.

insaniak wrote:

fester wrote:As far as I can recall... unless otherwise stated a fireport allows one model to fire through it.

Nope. The rulebook specifies that a fire point allows 'one or more' models to fire through it. It leaves it up to the Fire and Access Point Appendix (which was left out of the rulebook and later published in the Wargear book) to spell out the actual number of models that can use them on each vehicle.

I know the rulebook does say that one or more models may fire from a fire point, usual sillyness from GW to write the rule generally with the (I hope) intent to specify the rules when the codexes come out and then blatantly forget to do exactly that.

The reason I did not list a page for the rule was that I think I have read the 1 fire point -> 1 gun deal in a FAQ or errata.
Having played the game since rouge trader however it may be a remnant rule that just wont go away

This does not solve the oddity of the ork battlewagon with a hard top, if all models can fire out of one fire point if nothing else is specified then why does this vehicle have two fire points to each side?

Now like you probably notice I agree with you that the rule is not defined however I expect you agree with me that in reality each fire point allows one model to fire from it, unless stated otherwise, is the most reasonable interpretation of the rule but like you say, RAW does not state this (unless I can find that FAQ/errata and find it applies to 4th edition).

Captain Vargas wrote:In keeping with Fire Point questions, I play Space Marines (not spase marienz... hurr!, and i'm not sorry ) and plan to start using fire points because none of my play group does. I've read the rules a number of times and have come up with a Tactical Squad with Plasma Gunner could move in their Rhino up to 12", the Plasma Gunner and one other rapid fire trooper could fire twice up to 12", and still constitute legal. Does anyone have a challenge for this or am I correct? It's likely common knowledge but I ask because i've never seen it used and don't want to misuse.

Also, I can't find a listing that says the Rhino and the unit inside form one "unit". Could I, keeping with the example above, move 6" in the Rhino, fire the tanks Storm Bolter at one target and fire the troops two weapons at another unit? Again could be common knowledge but I can't find where it is spelled out in the book. Thanks!

Seth

Tactical Squads firing from a Rhino's Fire Points (two Marines) is an excellent tactic if used correctly. Specifically, charge the Rhino at a squad of units that can't hurt AV 11 (i.e. no S5 or better weapons). Tank shock them if possible. Using the trait 'Cleanse and Purify', have two of your Marines fire their Special Weapons (Plasma Guns, Flamers, or Melta Guns) at the squad. If you don't expect to exit the Rhino, make the squad only 5- or 6-man. If you want to exit and get into close combat later, increase the numbers. If you don't mind taking a major disadvantage, combine this tactic with the trait 'Purity Above All' and upgrade the Tactical Squad's Vet Sgt to an Apothecary to prevent death to the double Plasma Gunners from overheat.

NewHeretic

I don't think you can fire a flamer from the fire point of a Rhino. The weapon is fired from the fire point. This means the tip of the flamer template must be placed at the fire point. Thus, part of the flamer template is going to cover the Rhino body between the fire point and the edge of the Rhino.

This is a problem because you are not allowed to have any part of the template cover a friendly model. :(

vogelfrei wrote:Maybe Gav was too stupid to copy paste DA rhino rules...so, yeah! It's true...all 10 Space Marines can fire out of that huge Rhino with that gigantic firepoint...I pray to the Emperor, that that man will never write my beloveth Codex:Inquisition.

Not a concern anymore

snooggums wrote:I believe the passengers in a non-fast vehicle still only get to fire if it moves up to 6" like the other weapons. Ork fast vehicle passengers could shoot at 12" (or 13" with red paint job) moves.

This is wrong. Passengers can shoot as long as the vehicle doesn't move over 12" and is not Shaken or Stunned.

snooggums wrote:As the unit being carried is a separate unit from the vehicle they are able to fire at different units.

This is correct.

I don't think you can fire a flamer from the fire point of a Rhino. The weapon is fired from the fire point. This means the tip of the flamer template must be placed at the fire point. Thus, part of the flamer template is going to cover the Rhino body between the fire point and the edge of the Rhino.

This is a problem because you are not allowed to have any part of the template cover a friendly model. :(

I think insisting that this prevented you from firing would be someone being a bit of a ruleslawyer. Using that standard that you brought up, the Sisters of Battle Immolator would most likely not be able to fire because the Flamers on it are set back far enough that the front of the rhino is infront of them. I don't know the hellhound model but it would probably suffer too. Or even worse, if you modeled someone with a flamer far back on their base, when they fired their own base would be partially covered.

I think you can ignore the "friendly model" rule when comparing to the model it originated from, including units firing from a firing port on a vehicle

Drunkspleen: Naturally you can do this, its plain and simple common sence.

The problem however is that 40k has a rather sizable following that fall into ither one or all of the following categories:
Rulebenders
Powergamers
Ruleslawyers

To them common sence meens nothing, to some all that matters is winning and they adhere to the old saying "anything is fair in love and war".
To others however the game itself is secondary, the main objective is to bend and missinterpret the game rules as much as possible to their advantage and get away with it. Some such individuals would actually claim that an immolator may not fire... ever as the template would cover its own model, yes it would only be the rookies but still.

My advice is:
Play only with people who pay for the fun of playing, with them you will always be able to talk about the RAI, not RAW, as soon as RAW becomes more important than RAI then you will be getting problems.

Wow, fester, an Ad Hominem attack and a Straw Man all at one go? Well done!

And while talking about and playing RAI is fun - sometimes people play at Tournaments where RAW rules the roost. It is good to be informed of the actual rules before walking into these situations.

I've played at sanctioned tournies where the flamer isn't allowed from a rhino, where Dark Angels can assault from a Drop Pod, and where troops carrying rapid fire weapons can't fire pistols and charge. Knowing the RAW at least gave me fair warning when going into the tournament and allowed me to ask the judges ahead of time about these and other RAW/RAI issues.

If tournaments aren't your thing, that's fine. Many players do enjoy the occasional tournament. But to paint all players who are concerned with RAW with the broad brush of intolerance is very petty and shows a genuine lack of character.

Democratus:
In tournaments rules arguments is usually not a big problem.

Usually there is a rules FAQ in wich you can read upp on any questions you have.

Additionally if you are smart you should also pre tournament get in touch with the organisers and get written interpretations on any queries you have that are not covered by the FAQ.

Even if a completelly unforseen argument arises there are referees you can call and they will make the decition for you, as they are (hopefully) impartial it fast becomes a non issue.

Tournaments as a rule they have a few veterans who can deal with such things.

For this reason you will seldom find my above mentioned individuals in such places very often.

Games just for fun in the local shop or homegrown tournaments are different however, this is where the above mentioned people play and this is where atleast 90% of all 40k games take place.

At such places you can only ever rely on official stuff and hard core RAW as any other method is open to interpretation.

It is in thise situations you should seek out people who play for fun and people who prefers RAI over RAW, the games will be more fun and more often than not such groups adhere to one or other tournament FAQ that all agree is acceptable.

Its a game, I play to have fun, if it stops being fun I will stop playing.