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It seems reasonably clear that by the book you can take a Chaos Rhino in a squad of more than 10 CSM, so the question is...

Is taking a Chaos Rhino for a squad of more than 10 Chaos Space Marines against the SPIRIT of the rules?

I guess? I checked the rules and it does look like you're right, there's no "if the squad numbers 10 or less" in there. Thing is, who really cares? Rhinos do have their uses beyond carrying a squad forward so they can hop & shoot, but ........

Meh?

- Salvage

I voted yes as by the spirit of the rules the Rhino would be transporting them into battle.

However it is completely legal, sporting, not abusing or rules lawyering in any way to take one in a squad over 10.

snooggums wrote:I voted yes as by the spirit of the rules the Rhino would be transporting them into battle.

However it is completely legal, sporting, not abusing or rules lawyering in any way to take one in a squad over 10.

I'm going to agree. Presumably fluff-wise the chaos gods know what they are doing and provide enough transportation for everyone to get to the battlefield.

Besides, they're only 35 points .

Right.
The rules do not specify that you can't take the Rhino. It talks about their transport capacity & how many models they can carry, but doesn't specifically say that you can't buy it for a larger squad.

I'll tell you what, though... if you want a rule comparison...(please, note that I'm saying COMPARISON)

The Space Marine codex actually has it right. It does specify, under the description of each unit that CAN take a Rhino, "a squad...that numbers ten or less models may..."

So, if you want to use that to see the RAI for Rhinos... there you go.
If you want to use it to support that fact that it is only the RAW for SM's and doesn't affect Chaos... there you go.

Either way, my opinion is that it is against RAI and, if you're willing to accept that certain things are simply overlooked as common sense when they've been mentioned elsewhere, RAW.


Eric

MagickalMemories wrote:The Space Marine codex actually has it right. It does specify, under the description of each unit that CAN take a Rhino, "a squad...that numbers ten or less models may..."

So, if you want to use that to see the RAI for Rhinos... there you go.

On the other hand, Codex Dark Angels allows you to take a Razorback for a 10-man squad that can't fit in it.

insaniak wrote:

MagickalMemories wrote:The Space Marine codex actually has it right. It does specify, under the description of each unit that CAN take a Rhino, "a squad...that numbers ten or less models may..."

So, if you want to use that to see the RAI for Rhinos... there you go.

On the other hand, Codex Dark Angels allows you to take a Razorback for a 10-man squad that can't fit in it.

Yep. Given that the primary functions of the Rhino do not include transportation, I don't see any reason why you couldn't buy a mobile wall for 20 guys, but you could for 10.

if it is not what is intended then why do berzerkers say if the squad numbers 10 or less they can take a rhino.

so all of the other units that can take a rhino and dont have this restriction placed on them are mistakes?

Why stop there?

Why not just buy empty rhinos. After all, there is no rule saying you MUST buy a squad to go with it.........

Because the entry for the rhino says that it can be purchased for squads that have it as an option?

Yes I am aware it is in the troop section and the grey box around it is art and not rules. Does the Rhino have an entry in the army list in the back as a purchase option by itself?

Everyone does realize the question is 'spirit of the rules' not RAW or RAI right? The Rhino is a transport so by the spirit it would have to transport the unit it was attached to, I don't see how you could vote no on this poll.

snooggums wrote:Because the entry for the rhino says that it can be purchased for squads that have it as an option?

Yes I am aware it is in the troop section and the grey box around it is art and not rules. Does the Rhino have an entry in the army list in the back as a purchase option by itself?

Tell me where in the army list, not the fluffy description section, it states that the rhino is a "dedicated" transport. If you are going with the arguement that squads of 10+ can have a rhino because "it doesn't say they can't", then you can purchase empty rhinos for the same reason.

snooggums wrote:The Rhino is a transport so by the spirit it would have to transport the unit it was attached to

By the 'spirit' the rhino is simply a transport attached to the unit. There's nothing to say that the transport needs to be able to transport the entire unit.

Would it be against the 'spirit' if the unit had access to, say, a messenger on a motorbike without the entire unit being able to climb aboard the bike?

Laserbait wrote:

snooggums wrote:Because the entry for the rhino says that it can be purchased for squads that have it as an option?

Yes I am aware it is in the troop section and the grey box around it is art and not rules. Does the Rhino have an entry in the army list in the back as a purchase option by itself?

Tell me where in the army list, not the fluffy description section, it states that the rhino is a "dedicated" transport. If you are going with the arguement that squads of 10+ can have a rhino because "it doesn't say they can't", then you can purchase empty rhinos for the same reason.

Uhhhh, the rules for a CSM squad say they can take a Rhino, full stop. Its not that the rules "don't say they can't" its that they do allow a CSM squad without restriction of size to take a Rhino.


Nothing in the rules indicates that a Rhino may be purchased without it being dedicated to a unit.

snooggums wrote:Everyone does realize the question is 'spirit of the rules' not RAW or RAI right? The Rhino is a transport so by the spirit it would have to transport the unit it was attached to, I don't see how you could vote no on this poll.

Hey.
Not giving you a hard time.
Serious question.


I can't tell. Are you saying they SHOULD or SHOULD NOT be able to?

This text:

The Rhino is a transport so by the spirit it would have to transport the unit it was attached to

Supports that you feel as if they should NOT be able to take it, but you turn around and say:

I don't see how you could vote no on this poll.

Which means you are in FAVOR of a large units taking them... "No" meaning it's NOT against the Spirit of the Rules.


Insaniak:

On the other hand, Codex Dark Angels allows you to take a Razorback for a 10-man squad that can't fit in it.

I don't have my Codex: DA here at work. What is the exact wording? Does it specify "10 man squad" or does it just say that the squad can take it, but not define unit size restrictions?
The reason I ask is because, IIRC, DA's can separate their unit into 2 squads, making 1 able to use the transport (maybe to carry them into HtH?) and the other squad to stay behind (perhaps as an ad hoc Dev Squad?).


I think the bottom line is that GW's editors blow chunks and they get sadistic pleasure over leaving certain factors unaddressed!


Eric

but where does it say it is dedicated?

All I see is where it says certain units >may< take a rhino.

No where, but no where, does it say it is a dedicated unit.

Y'all go on about rules "as intended" and "as written", but sometimes I get the feeling that many use that when it is favorable to their chosen position.

Some folks are saying its OK to take a transport, even though the entire unit can't fit into it. I am just carrying this argument to its enevitiable conclusion.

But, if the claim that the chaos rhino is a dedicated transport is being made, then please turn to page 62 in your rules textbook.

Under the heading "Who can Use a Transport Vehicle?" in the 2nd paragraph it states:
Dedicated transports may only be used to transport the squad they are selected with plus any independant characters that have joined the squad (provided there is room in the transport, of course).

So, to me, when you purchase a rhino for a squad that cannot fit into it, you are violating the spirit of the rule.

MagickalMemories wrote:
The reason I ask is because, IIRC, DA's can separate their unit into 2 squads, making 1 able to use the transport (maybe to carry them into HtH?) and the other squad to stay behind (perhaps as an ad hoc Dev Squad?).

The DA are not required to use combat squads, so a 10-man squad that has no intention of using that rule may still purchase a Razorback they have no intention of using. As you may recall Combat Squads also cannot be used in any scenario where the squad is not deployed on the table at the beginning of the game. If you are rolling randomly for mission level, that should mean that a 1/3rd of the time even 10-man squads wishing to combat squad to use the transport will be unable to do so until they have taken 4 casualties.

That certainly seems to suggest enough of a precedent to allow squads to take transports that might not be of use to them if the unit or vehicle's entry does not include a strict prohibition.

Laserbait wrote:but where does it say it is dedicated?

All I see is where it says certain units >may< take a rhino.

No where, but no where, does it say it is a dedicated unit.

Y'all go on about rules "as intended" and "as written", but sometimes I get the feeling that many use that when it is favorable to their chosen position.

Some folks are saying its OK to take a transport, even though the entire unit can't fit into it. I am just carrying this argument to its enevitiable conclusion.

But, if the claim that the chaos rhino is a dedicated transport is being made, then please turn to page 62 in your rules textbook.

Under the heading "Who can Use a Transport Vehicle?" in the 2nd paragraph it states:
Dedicated transports may only be used to transport the squad they are selected with plus any independant characters that have joined the squad (provided there is room in the transport, of course).

So, to me, when you purchase a rhino for a squad that cannot fit into it, you are violating the spirit of the rule.

I will agree with you, but ultimately you are talking about two different totally unrelated arguments.

One argument is whether a CSM unit with more than 10 models can take a Rhino, and the answer to that is clearly yes, except for Bezerkers (whose entry clearly forbids them from taking a Rhino).


The second argument you've brought up is whether transport vehicles that are placed into codex army lists and seperated merely by a dark box can be taken as their own codex choice from whatever section of the army list they happen to be placed in (in this codex that would be a 'troops' choice).

As I said above, I would agree with you that GW has made a silly assumption that seperating a transport unit from the army list with a simple box is somehow enough information for players to assume that it isn't part of the normal army list and to be frank, that isn't the case.

By the RAW most transport options in codices and many retinue units (like SM command squads in the SM codex) should be able to be taken as their own choice. The way their rules are written leaves the option open to take these units along with another unit, but the wording does not expressly forbid players from taking them on their own.


But these two arguments are not related in any way.


And as for the page 62 quote, all that says is that a dedicated transport cannot transport any other unit than the one that purchased it. It does not say that if the unit is initially too big to be carried by the transport then you are breaking a rule.

What is the benefit to taking a unit that is larger than its transport to carry?

While there is no rule that says you MUST place the unit in the transport and it is free to operate on its own, it is designed to be used as a transport.

And, although I am aware we are discussing the Chaos rhinos, the precedent in the SM codex is that 10+ models equals no rhino. The precedent in the prior CSM codex is that 10+ models equals no rhino.

And how is the anomaly of the Berserkers accounted for? As half assed as GW is with their codexes adding & dropping items without explanation, I think this is a case of an oversight that wasn't caught.

And now lets look at terminators and Land raiders. Under terminators it states:

'The squad may have a Chaos Land Raider dedicated transport"

Does that mean a 10 man Terminator squad can have a LR too?

And to be perfectly frank, I wonder about the thought process that goes on with some of the players out there. I for one wouldn't have thought of this situation. I would have thought, based on prior codexes and the rhino stats that it is clear cut: 10 or less, rhino. 10+ no rhino.

But I think you're reading too much into things.

GW has shown now starting with the DA codex and moving forwards the ability for units that are too large to fit into transports being able to still take that transport if they so wish.

It isn't tactially the best idea, but if people want to do it, who really cares?


I personally find it similar to how GW changed how ICs act with their retinues starting with the Eldar codex. At first people were like: "it has to be a typo that the Warlock retinue is a separate unit from the Warseer because that is how it was in the old codex and all the other codexes."

But then it became quickly apparent that GW had simply eliminated the whole retinue rule and now ICs are allowed to join or leave their retinue at will.


So CSM units more than 10 men can take Rhinos they can't fit in and DA 10-man squads can take Razorbacks they can't fit in and Chaos Terminator squads can take Land Raiders they can't fit in.

Big deal. You're still paying the points for the unit. Sure you gain a unit outside of the FOC but you are also stuck paying for a vehicle that is unable to transport anyone (until they take some casualties).

The end result is: it follows the rules and if people want to do it I don't understand why anyone would want to get bent out of shape over it personally.

Laserbait wrote:What is the benefit to taking a unit that is larger than its transport to carry?

While there is no rule that says you MUST place the unit in the transport and it is free to operate on its own, it is designed to be used as a transport.

And, although I am aware we are discussing the Chaos rhinos, the precedent in the SM codex is that 10+ models equals no rhino. The precedent in the prior CSM codex is that 10+ models equals no rhino.

Keep in mind that the precedent in more recent and relevant books like DA and BA says the opposite and GW has shown and stated that a 10 man squad with a Razorback is A-OK.

'The squad may have a Chaos Land Raider dedicated transport"

Does that mean a 10 man Terminator squad can have a LR too?

Of course? The squad may have a CLR dedicated transport. I'm amazed that you can read that as saying "The squad cannot have a CLR DT."

Everyone keeps mentioning razorbacks and DA & BA.

What does it say in those codexes about rhinos?

I don't have either codex and am curious.

Laserbait wrote:Everyone keeps mentioning razorbacks and DA & BA.

What does it say in those codexes about rhinos?

I don't have either codex and am curious.

Transport:
Tactical Squads may select a Drop Pod, a Rhino, or a Razorback as a dedicated transport vehicle (see page 87 for points costs).

On page 87 there is a list marked "Dedicated Transport Vehicles" (in the same manner that other parts of the list are marked as Troops or Heavy Support).

insaniak wrote:

snooggums wrote:The Rhino is a transport so by the spirit it would have to transport the unit it was attached to

By the 'spirit' the rhino is simply a transport attached to the unit. There's nothing to say that the transport needs to be able to transport the entire unit.

Would it be against the 'spirit' if the unit had access to, say, a messenger on a motorbike without the entire unit being able to climb aboard the bike?

A messenger on a motorbike is not a "dedicated unit transport". In the skirmish ruleset for 40k a transport is there to transport the squad on the battlefield of the 40k game at a that time. A squad may very well have two transports to move the 20 men around that don't participate in the game, but in the ruleset the dedicated transports are there to transport the unit on the battlefield, that is why they are restricted to only transporting that one unit and most cedexes limit it to the unit size.

I'm not arguing RAW or RAI as I already noted, I'm saying the dedicated trasport rules are there because the trasport is there to trasport that specific unit, and taking it for a unit that has no ability to be transported is against the spirit of the rules, not necissarily against RAI or RAW.

snooggums wrote:I'm not arguing RAW or RAI as I already noted, I'm saying the dedicated trasport rules are there because the trasport is there to trasport that specific unit, and taking it for a unit that has no ability to be transported is against the spirit of the rules, not necissarily against RAI or RAW.

This statement doesn't make any sense. The spirit of the rules is identical to the intent of the rules. I can hardly see how it's against the spirit of the rules to take a transport for a unit that doesn't fit seeing as how it's been pointed out multiple times that both blood angels and dark angels can take razorback transports for squads of 10 marines.

I noticed that Khorne Berzerkers must be 10 models of less in the new Chaos Codex to take a Rhino, none of the other units that have the option have that restriction.

It really helps seal the deal. Berzerkers have the restriction because they're expected to use it as a transport. The other units are expected to use it as an infantry support vehicle (IFV) - which is why it can take extra weapons like the Havoc Launcher and Combi-Weapons to assist it in the IFV role.

Asmodai wrote:I noticed that Khorne Berzerkers must be 10 models of less in the new Chaos Codex to take a Rhino, none of the other units that have the option have that restriction.

It really helps seal the deal. Berzerkers have the restriction because they're expected to use it as a transport. The other units are expected to use it as an infantry support vehicle (IFV) - which is why it can take extra weapons like the Havoc Launcher and Combi-Weapons to assist it in the IFV role.

OK, that works for me!

I think I'm going to model up a counts-as Chimera as a fire-support IFV for my IG Command Squad.

Buoyancy wrote:

snooggums wrote:I'm not arguing RAW or RAI as I already noted, I'm saying the dedicated trasport rules are there because the trasport is there to trasport that specific unit, and taking it for a unit that has no ability to be transported is against the spirit of the rules, not necissarily against RAI or RAW.

This statement doesn't make any sense. The spirit of the rules is identical to the intent of the rules.

I disagree. They can intend a rule to be a certain way such as having transports for units that cannot be transported, but the idea of a dedicated transport indicates the rule of 'dedicated transports' is being contradicted by the rule allowing anyone to take them. It would be like having Chaos Terminators and Obliterators taking a Rhino as a transport that they could never use, even if the rule was clear that they could do so. I'm talking about the dedicated transport rules is what this is against. The OP should have put "Is this against RAI".

I can hardly see how it's against the spirit of the rules to take a transport for a unit that doesn't fit seeing as how it's been pointed out multiple times that both blood angels and dark angels can take razorback transports for squads of 10 marines.

Blood Angels and Dark Angels can always split into combat squads at the beginning of a game and the combat squad can be transported separately from the other unit. This is possible in every single game, and they most likely did not want to penalize a player for wanting a Razorback for part of the squad. Even if they meant to have the Rhino as a support unit as opposed to a transport, it is taken as a dedicated transport and that is where I think they are against the Spirit of the rules.

If I was to post in a RAI vs RAW thread I would say that Rhinos for units over 10 is both RAW and RAI.

snooggums wrote:
Blood Angels and Dark Angels can always split into combat squads at the beginning of a game and the combat squad can be transported separately from the other unit. This is possible in every single game, and they most likely did not want to penalize a player for wanting a Razorback for part of the squad.

If you read the Combat Squads rule, this statement is not true. I don't have the DA Codex on me at the moment, but to quote the BA PDF file from GW: "Units held in Reserve cannot be split into Combat Squads." As I noted above, the Combat Squad rule and the unit options assume that (if you are rolling randomly for Alpha-Omega) 1 out of every 3 missions a 10-man squad will be unable to utilize its transport until it has taken casualties.

That is a very good RAI vs RAW point Alpharius. It does show how the unit that takes the transport cannot be 'transported' onto the board by their transport, which is what the transport was for.

Did I mention transport? Because if It wasn't taken as a transport then I would not think it was against the spirit of the transport rules.