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I could really use some advice on this list for this years tournaments.

Please let me know what you think.

Hive Tyrant
Enhanced Senses
Toxin Sacs
Venom Cannon
Barbed Strangler
Total 157

Hive Tyrant
Enhanced Senses
Toxin Sacs
Venom Cannon
Barbed Strangler
Catalyst
Total 167

Carnifex
Enhanced Senses
Venom Cannon
Barbed Strangler
148

Carnifex
Enhanced Senses
Venom Cannon
Barbed Strangler
148

Carnifex
Enhanced Senses
Venom Cannon
Barbed Strangler
148

11 Gene Stealers w Scuttle
Total 209

11 Gene Stealers w Scuttle
Total 209

8 Gene Stealers
128

8 Gene Stealers
128

8 Gene Stealers
128

8 Gene Stealers
128

Grand Total 1698

This may not be the direction you're wanting to go, but if you dropped all of the Genestealer squads down to 6, it might open some interesting options for you. You would still have 36 'Stealers, but you'd have the points to add 3 Dakkafexes. This gives you 8 MC's and 36 'Stealers. You have more big bodies for your 'Stealers to hid behind while they advance, while still keeping a pretty solid number of CC bugs. This would also drastically increase your shooting against infantry to help get rid of shooting squads that are dangerous to the 'Stealers as they advance.

Hey thanks for the advice. Yes you are right full Nidzillia is the safer bet, 30 stealers and 8MCs was my old list and of course it kicked ass. I know that in open terrain stealer shock is in trouble but full Nidzillia was getting boring.

Ah, you're trying for something different, I see.

I played against a guy who had an almost full Nidzilla, Choir list that was supported by 30+ 'Stealers. That wasn't a lot of fun to play against.

Try less barbed stranglers. You can't stop a horde army from rushing you with those, but you can with TL Dev.

180 orks will swamp your genestealers.

Also, why scuttle on some and not all?

Catalyst? Really?

Why not cut back on the scuttle and all those upgrades, and max out your genestealers?

Also, not having Carapace armor is bad.

catalyst was because I had 12 points kicking around and Yea I think having frag grenades on any 1 squad is great when charging them into cover it's way cheaper than buying flesh hooks for the entire army.

I did not take scuttle on all my troops to keep my numbers up. going full scuttle would take me down to 6 squads of 8, costing me 6 stealers. I will try both ways and see which I like best however the idea is to start in cover and in my experience only a few squads can really take advantage of a scout move and keep cover.

On the other hand dropping scuttle on the 22 stealers would give me 4 more. But I think I can get tactical advantages out of scout moving into or behind cover during set up. (Stealer shock is very terrain dependent.) This also helps me keep to a denied flank tactic by allowing me to advance almost half my stealers letting the others keep there toes on the deployment line without forcing me to deploy wide or bunch up too tight for enemy plates.

To Carapace or not to Carapace is a very very argued point. Suffice to say I am not in the carapace camp, though I may experiment with giving my scuttle stealers carapace to draw fire from their nude brothers.

I agree that there is a very strong argument for devourers, especially on the tyrants. Dev rants are the most broken thing in the nid list and some of the most broken things in the entire game. On the other hand having first turn fire power and pinning is very important to this concept. The only way to make devs work on the first turn is on a fly rant, who typically needs to advance out of cover meaning he needs warp field which ends up costing 40pts more than the current rant. Even walk dev rants typically need rant guards. Lastly this list is most vulnerable to mech eldar and mech tau. (not sure about new orcs yet.) So I wanted as much anti skimmer fire power as I could squeeze in.

Without Extended carapace I cannot see this army being a top tier Nid list. The fact that your monstrous creatures all have a 3+ armor save just cries out for missiles to hit them. There is a huge difference with this army when it comes between 3+ armor and 2+ armor on the monsters and 4+ to 5+ on the stealers. I would look into armoring up your army for survivability.

Also implant attack on the tyrants is a good idea if you are going to be going up against alot of multi wound T4+ enemies.

Well the tyrants are both walking 36" ranged critters so implant attack seems a bit moot.

The argument between carapace and no carapace on stealers is well rehearsed. That being said I may consider putting carapace on the scuttlers to draw fire for the rest.

The reason I did not take 2+ saves on all my MCs is that they are designed to live most of the battle in cover. Yes a lot depends on how much high str ap3 the enemy takes and the quality of the cover available. If, on the other hand, the enemy loads up on laz cannons the 2+ saves are all ruined. Also if the enemy is shooting crack at my MCs he is not shooting frags at my stealers.

If I were to armor all my MCs and all my stealers I would be down to 40 stealers with no Scuttle. If I wanted to scuttle and ec with all my stealers i would only have 35 of them.


Let me also state that despite some great results in some tournaments I do not believe any form of stealer shock will be top tier. No matter how you slice it too much depends on decent table terrain and most tournaments insist on us playing with terrain in both dep zones and a basically barren no mans land which ridiculously favors shooty armies.

You may want wings on one of your tyrants to keep up with scuttling/fleetind stealers.

Well, stealer shock can certainly win tournaments.

We came in 2nd on battle points at the team tourney at Adepticon last year and Centurian 99 (one of my teammates) won the Chicago GT with them too. The issue with Stealer shock is that unlike armies like a pure Godzilla list, you can run into army types that you will really, really struggle with (like Mech Eldar). So unlike some of the top armies it really depends on a little 'luck of the draw' for you to do really, really well.

That said, there are a few keys you are missing with this army list:


Key #1: All Stealers must have scuttlers and extended Carapace. It isn't a stealer "shock" without the shock of having Stealers charge your opponent in the 2nd turn. That's the whole point of the army type is to bring pressure immediately and overwhelmingly. You must cut down your numbers to make sure you have both of these upgrades on every Stealer.


Key #2: You need a flying Tyrant. Again, it comes down to putting early pressure on your opponent and the flying Tyrant is one of the best units in the game at doing so. I recommend the x2 TL Devourer version, but a x2 Scything Talon version will work as well (although the Devourer Tyrant tends to be more versatile). Recommended Biomorphs for the flying x2 TL Devourer Tyrant are: Warp Field, +1BS, +1S, +1WS, Implant Attack & (if you have the points) Acid Maw. The Flying Tyrant is a lot more expensive than your version (upwards of 220 points) but is able to destroy whole units with its shooting alone and can obliterate pretty much any character in the game with a round of shooting followed up by a charge.



Besides that, you don't really NEED a 2nd Tyrant, but if you do take one a Barbed Strangler is a waste of points on a Tyrant. You're better off going with a Venom Cannon and a TL Devourer IMO. Also, Catalyst is a huge waste in a Stealer shock army because most of the time your models strike first anyway.


Centurian 99 has a blog which chronicled his run in the Chicago GT that I suggest you take a look at if you're really interested in the stealer shock army:

http://ministrategery.com/blog/index.php?paged=3

Thanks for the reply.

I am aware of your and centurions record. I know you basically are the inventor of stealer shock and so I take your advice seriously.

However at the GT in Chicago everyone got to place their own terrain, this obviously provides massive advantages to any assault force.
Most tournaments have darn little terrain and it's all pre placed.

I think this is a list that will meet closer to your approval.

Hive Tyrant
Enhanced Senses
Toxin Sacs
2 Twin Linked Devourers
Wings
Implant Attack
Acid Maw
Adrenal Gland WS
Warp Field
222

Carnifex
Enhanced Senses
Venom Cannon
Barbed Strangler
Reinforced Chitnin
163

Carnifex
Enhanced Senses
Venom Cannon
Barbed Strangler
Reinforced Chitnin
163

Carnifex
Enhanced Senses
Venom Cannon
Barbed Strangler
Reinforced Chitnin
163

8 Gene Stealers w Scuttle + EC
184

8 Gene Stealers w Scuttle + EC
184

8 Gene Stealers w Scuttle + EC
184

7 Gene Stealers w Scuttle + EC
161

6 Gene Stealers w Scuttle + EC
138

6 Gene Stealers w Scuttle + EC
138

Grand Total 1700


But I have a few questions.

With respect...

First, don't you find the lone winged rant gets zapped on the first or second turn of shooting? This is my experience as every AP2 or better weapon gets turned on him.

Second, why take all the hth biomorphs on the rant? Aren't 43 stealers enough hth?

Third, I noticed the Zoans in centurions list, don't zoans have limited range and thus can't contribute much if at all on the first turn of nid shooting? (thus I put in a third fex)

Fourth is the synapse really needed for LD 10 troops?

Take a look at the terrain in Centurain's battle reports on his blog, I don't think there was any tremendous benefit he gained from being able to place terrain. If you are playing in a tournament that is known for not having much terrain at all then you may want to consider abandoning the stealer shock idea. It really makes things difficult if the entire enemy army is able to see and target all your stealers on the first turn.


As for your questions:


Doesn't the Hive Tyrant get zapped in the first turn?

He sure can. You obviously have to make sure you set up in a way that if you don't get first turn your Hive Tyrant is out of line of sight, and when setting him up try to plan a course of movement that will elminate or greatly reduce the amount of AP 1-2 fire that can see him.

Opponents will usually castle up pretty heavily when they see they're facing the stealer shock and that means most of their heavy weapons are located in one area of the table. That means you can use your deployment and first turns of movement to utilize terrain to block line of sight to this castle. In other words, approach the castle from a blind spot, or as close to a blind spot as you can find.

Besides, the Tyrant's shooting power means that you can effectively cripple whole units with one round of shooting. That means the Tyrant can be used to target a flank that is only held by one or two units and he can then eliminate the enemy weapons in one of those squads that threaten him before it gets a chance to fire.

Also don't forget the power of fear the stealers will hold over your opponent. If they have any units with mixed weapons, like a Tactical squad with a Lascannon your opponent will have to choose whether they want to waste all the bolter shots to shoot their Lascannon at your Tyrant or whether they want to use the Bolters on the stealers (effectively wasting the Lascannon). In this way you can win either way: If the Tyrant dies your stealers are still mostly intact and if you stealers die your Tyrant will rampage through the opposing army.


Why take all the hth biomorphs on the rant? Aren't 43 stealers enough hth?

The reason for this is because the flying Tyrant is often used off on his own away from the stealers. This is done to either avoid an enemy castle's fire lanes or just because your opponent has split his forces and you've sent your stealers after the bulk of his army while your Tyrant takes out the smaller force.

A Tyrant without those CC upgrades suffers real danger from being charged by an IC with a powerfist and killed. With Implant Attack and Acid Maw you stand a pretty good damn chance of killing any IC in one round of CC, especially if you shoot them before you charge.

So basically you're spending a bit more on your Tyrant to make sure that he can take on nearly any threat. It makes him an entirely autonomous force, which is exactly what you need him for.


I noticed the Zoans in centurions list, don't zoans have limited range and thus can't contribute much if at all on the first turn of nid shooting?

The Zoanthropes are needed if you are using any scuttling spinegaunts. Spinegaunts can be a useful little tool to soak fire from any enemy units that fail their priority tests on the first turn and having an extra cheap scoring unit is never a bad thing. However in Escalation missions the Flying Tyrant starts off the table so the Zoantrhopes are needed.

Since you aren't taking any Spinegaunts a third Gunfex is fine.


Is the synapse really needed for LD 10 troops?

Nope, not really. Your stealers don't test for IB and even if your Gunfexes fail they can still fire (they just can't move). It doesn't hurt to have, but it certainly isn't needed.

Also, Centurian used Raveners and Raveners do need Synapse to not suffer Instant Death, so the Synapse the Zoanthropes provide can protect the Raveners for their first turn or two of movement.

Russell wrote:I am aware of your and centurions record. I know you basically are the inventor of stealer shock and so I take your advice seriously.

Hilarious! The Tyranid playtesters would say different.

Course, Phil Kelly actually invented it first.

Still, hilarious.

Stelek wrote:

Hilarious! The Tyranid playtesters would say different.

Course, Phil Kelly actually invented it first.

Still, hilarious.

I would never claim such a thing. The only thing I did was come up with a name to the army style when we were trying to choose our Adepticon army, and even that name could easily have been floating around the internet and entered my consciousness without me remembering it.


Also, I feel pretty confident that there are builds of armies that the designers don't think of until the codex is released. The power of the Dakkafex/shooty Godzilla army has me pretty convinced that Phil Kelly didn't consider that Carnifexes with x2 Twin-Linked Devourers would be so deadly en masse (if he even envisioned that such a configuration was legal).

He ignored the math that the playtest group presented to him. Or as I believe, it never got to him.

Anything like the standard Godzilla is powerful. Course there is the super slowed 'but I wanna move, no synapse...my carnifex freezes in place in TERROR' argument I had with him at LV.

And the Eldar Jetbikes fleeting....god. lol

Why are dakka rants overpowered? They put out as much firepower as rapidfireing tau.

Why are dakka rants overpowered? They put out as much firepower as rapidfireing tau.

Hmm lets see. Fearless, twice the toughness, 3+ or 2+ save, 18 inch range compared to 12 for tau rapid fire, exude fearlessness to all other nids in 12 inches, the horror, great hth capability, the ability to jump pack. That PLUS all the net MEQ killing goodness of a full squad of tau fire warriors rapid firing at close range with the added bonus of a fearsome assault in the same phase..... Yes please....

Just posted a my first ever battle report on a variant on my first list.

See it at

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/206143.page

Ok so Friday I am going to test a non EC stealer list vs a SAFH Marine list.

His list will be similar to this...

1 termie librarian with fury
4 termies with 2 ACS

5 termies with 2 ACS

8 devs with 4 ML's

4 squads of 5 tacs with Las/Plas

10 assault marines, w hidden fist.

My list.

Hive Tyrant
Enhanced Senses
Toxin Sacs
catalyst.
Venom Cannon
Barbed Strangler
Total 167

Hive Tyrant
Enhanced Senses
Toxin Sacs
Venom Cannon
Barbed Strangler
Total 157

Carnifex
Enhanced Senses
Venom Cannon
Barbed Strangler
Total 148

Carnifex
Enhanced Senses
Venom Cannon
Barbed Strangler
Total 148

Carnifex
Enhanced Senses
Venom Cannon
Barbed Strangler
Total 148

8 Gene Stealers w Scuttle 152

8 Gene Stealers w Scuttle 152

8 Gene Stealers w Scuttle 152

8 Gene Stealers w Scuttle 152

8 Gene Stealers w Scuttle 152

9 Gene Stealers w Scuttle 171

Grand Total 1699


I figure if I get first turn I may stand a shot.

The idea is to pin or kill his anti hord forces (the termies will be tough...) Then swamp them with stealers. I'll post a battle report when it's all done.

Liked the BR.

I still don't like the BS but it is a theme in the army.

Have you thought about putting a BS on the Tyrant, or no?

His list isn't very strong in my honest opinion....are you gunwalling at all those units you can't scuttle behind terrain?

You can't take psychic scream and warp field. You are only allowed one psychic power in addition to the standard 2.

Darrian

Dang your right Darrian! I editied the list. I have dropped the flyrant again and went back to 5 plates. I want pinning!

We will see how it goes.

EC is invaluable. All the arguments are great but in tournaments at times the terrain is scarce and a vet. shooty opponent will make sure he gives himself fire lanes were you will have to cross open terrain at some point. Better to at least have a save against bolters than nothing at all. I personally go for the stealers first at all costs, then the tyrants. and last the fexes. In assault if you flub on your rend rolls 5+ won't cut it either.

You are so right about the EC. When I play genestealers (in a shock army) I always go for the EC, sure it tis expensive but it greatly increases the survivability of the genestealers. I have been playing a stealershock army in my FLGS league and I have not yet lost with the genestealers. EC and scuttle are the only biomorphs I take and they are just fine.

Darrian

Well that's why Im play testing. This upcoming battle ought to determine the weakness's of no EC and 3+ saves on the MCs

Darrian do you have your stealer shock list posted anywhere? I would love to see it.

Sure, This is a copy of Bill Kim's stealer shock army with some small changes. All credit should go to him, any criticism should go to me. I am sure that my changes weakened it. (This list is by memory and is 2000 points)

HQ:
Hive Tyrant. wings,+1BS, +1 ST, 2xdevourers, warp field, acid maw, flesh hooks.

Broodlord
8 genestealers EC

Troops: (5 identical squads of)
8 genestealers EC, scuttlers

Fast attack: (3 identical squads)
1 Ravener, RC, ST

Heavy Support: (3 identical squads)
Carnifex +1 BS, +1 Armor save, VC, Barb strangler

Simple fast and very effective. Just keep it away from mech armies as it does not have enough firepower to take down a fully mech army.

Darrian

The list that Darrian posted is IMHO the ideal stealer shock army.

Although I prefer Just Cooks list from Baltimore and Chicago

HQ
1 Flyrant

6 Warriors, EC, Leaping, Rending. +1 WS(or ST)

Elites
3 Dakka Fexes

Troops
4 units of 3 Leaping rippers w/ spine fists

Fast
3 units of 2 Ravenors w/ rending claws

Heavy
3 Gun fexes (Just EC and +1 BS)

its a lot harder to get to the nasty combat nids before the rpippers are on top of your shooty squads and by the time that they are done with the shooty squads the warriors or ravenors already have you within reach.

But if you are going stealer shock go with Bill Kim's (or something like that)

I might just have to try the rippers. I am bored to tears with my Tyranids. I only seem to play 2 flavors of them and I need to work in some more flavor.

Darrian

My only problem is with the brood lord. In 66% of the scenarios he can not infiltrate and he kills fleet for his entire brood. So most games he's an anchor....

If you are referring to the back of the book missions, he deploys regularly in Alpha (no infiltrate), infiltrates in Gamma and in Omega. So it is only 33% of the missions found in the back of the book. If you take the 3rd ed RTT missions, almost all of them allow infiltrate.