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These guys according to the fluff are selected from birth and then trained right from young in one of the harshest regimes out there. the Schola Progenium. Needless to say, they are something like the Ghost of Starcraft, except without the psionic abilities. They are the elite of the elite, so naturally they would not be trained simply on just shooting. There will be a lot of physical training, close quarters combat exercises etc. Therefore I propose a change to the stats of the Storm Troopers.

Storm Trooper: MS:4 BS:4 S:3 T:3 A:1 W:1 I:4 L:8 AS:4+

The WS of 4 denotes their intense physical training and ingrained close quarters combat exercises. The high Intiative denotes the natural gifts they possess that were the criteria of their selection from birth. They were chosen after all because they were gifted physically in some way or another and they are trained to be an elite strike force, above the common grunt, so I think my statistical changes of WS4 and I4 is realistic. If you read the article regarding Storm Trooper usage on the GW website, it is suggested that using Storm Troopers as a Counter-Charge unit is a reasonable option to consider. I don't know why they said that because none of their stats reflect their use as an assault unit. I think this should put them more in line with how they should be.

To further enhance their image as a Counter-Charge unit, there should be a change to how the Hellgun works. Personally I don't understand why the Storm Troopers aren't issued Boltguns as their standard firearm and instead the Imperium had to make a powered-up version of a Lasgun that lies somewhere between that and a Boltgun. Just give them a Boltgun for goodness sake, I am sure you don't need to be in Power Armour or be a Space Marine to use one. Anyway, since they have their own unique standard firearm, I suppose certain things should be done to make it more fitting to their fluff.

Hellgun: R:24" S:4 AP:- T:A2

Since a Hellgun is effectively a souped-up Lasgun, having a higher Strength to denote the increased power is more convincing than a higher AP. Having nil AP sort of identifies it as a Laser weapon, at least as a relation to the Lasgun. Having Assault 2 encourages the feasibility of them as a Counter-Charge unit. In this way, they are truly the elite of the Imperial Guard, having tactical versatility and the skill to mete with any situation, be it at range or in the melee.

So, tell me what you think. I think this makes them more fluffy. Anyway feel free to play-test this and tell me the outcome.

Aren't WS 4 Stormtroopers covered by the Hardened Fighters Doctrine? 24" seems a little high for range, maybe drop that to 18" (or less). Other than that I agree.

Afraid Storm Troopers aren't included in the 'Guard infantry' definition, so they don't benefit from doctrines.

As for the idea in general, I like it

al-Majid Agandhjin bin Ahfal al-Rashid

Never mind, it's easier to fix the Doctrine than the Stormtrooper entry.

George Spiggott wrote:Never mind, it's easier to fix the Doctrine than the Stormtrooper entry.

Except that "fixing" the Doctrine would require giving Stormtroopers access to ALL Guard doctrines which would be a bit over the top (for instance, I4 + Close Order Drill would make them . . . I5). Hence the need for some kind of solution for the actual ST entry.

To the OP: As far as the Tactica suggesting their use as a Counter-Charge unit, I believe that was more of a strategy of desparation-in a pinch against some foes the stormies' 4+ saves and cheap power weapon with the Vet. Sgt. can tie up the enemy for a turn or two while you move units into position to mob them.

As much as I would like to see my ST's buffed, I think making them WS4/I4 is a bit of a stretch. Sisters go through the Schola as well as and have basically the same profile except in Power Armor instead of Carapace-are you arguing that they pull the punches enough for the girls to result in such different training outcomes?

While ST's should be better than normal Guardsmen, the limitations of a D6 system shouldn't be an excuse to make them the equal in skill of Marines.

I also agree that the Hellgun needs a fix, but making it basically a Shoota clone (per the new Orks) hardly seems like the ticket. The last thing this game needs anyway is more S4 infantry weapons-I'd prefer a more unique solution.

Alpharius Walks wrote:Except that "fixing" the Doctrine would require giving Stormtroopers access to ALL Guard doctrines which would be a bit over the top (for instance, I4 + Close Order Drill would make them . . . I5). Hence the need for some kind of solution for the actual ST entry.

No it wouldn't, you just add the line "or to any Storm trooper squad for x points." to the end of the Hardened Fighters doctrine entry. A quick read of the Close Order Drill doctrine reveals that your fears are unfounded. I wasn't suggesting that Storm troopers should count as 'Guard Infantry' although as I think about it now it's not a terrible idea.

I hadn't noticed they were Initiative 4, I don't think they should be Initiative 4.

Raising the attributes of basic weapons is exactly what 40k needs because then the game would be about close range fire fights much more than it is now, you may have a different opinion about what 40k 'should be'. I think Hell guns are a good place to start.

BTW: Is this change just for Imperial Guard Storm troopers or for Inquisitorial Storm troopers and Grenadiers too?

Calixtus gave I4 as part of his amended Stormtrooper profile, that was what I was responding to. They are currently I3.

My assumption was that fixing the Doctrine entry would involve fixing the Doctrine definition in order to start carving out conflicting definitions within the Doctrine system. At the moment though I'm with GW on storm troopers and doctrines-they are separate elite forces with a uniform profile that are detached to sometimes assist other regiments in the field, but not for sufficient periods of time to pick up those regiments' doctrines. I think this would also answer your questions on whether or not it would apply to non-Codex: IG ST's as well.

I don't object to working to change the focus in 40k as you suggested so much as I object to having uber-generic S4 infantry weapons brought into the Guard.

Then we agree, we both think they shouldn't be Initiative 4. I don't think that allowing Strom troopers access to some doctrines is too much, the Storm troopers in codex IG already have different options to those in both Inquisition codices.

I now think that Hellguns should be Str: 4 AP: - Range: 12: Assault: 2 and that a Targeter should increase the range on basic weapons in some way, I'm just not sure how yet.

Despite all the training that stormtroopers recieve, they are still human. Marines have WS 4 and I4 because they are greatly altered genetically. Their stats are fine the way they are now. BS 4 is pretty high and Ld 8 is also nice for a human. As for the Hellgun it could be a little better, but you run the risk of making them a little too powerful for their point cost if you juice up the Hellgun with BS 4. I'm a big fan of Assault weapons as opposed to Rapid Fire and I think that little change could do a lot for them.

Just a thought, lets approach the stormtrooper problem from the other direction. What is it that we want the Stormtrooper to accomplish better? Here is my thoughts.

Stormtroopers need to be a very mobile foot unit, that shoots ALMOST as good as terminator, but being human doesn't punch as well, that can land anywhere on the field. Oh, they should also with basic weapons out shoot Lasguns across the board.

Lets look at S3 AP- assault 3...
Edited, as when I MathHammer This proposal it was weaker than the existing Hellgun against soft targets inside 12 inches, and only a 4% to 6% improvement at 12 inches or more. Against harder targets is about a 2% improvement.

Looking at Storm Bolter Lite (S4, AP-), as a rapid fire on T3 targets you get 4% worse than the existing Hellgun on 5+ armor save, and only a 7% improvement on SV4 inside 12". Assaulting it helps at 12" plus to about 16% greater effectiveness. beyond rapid fire.

It's getting late, so I will sum up real quick after my discovery. Stomies should be 2 points cheaper, keep the Hellgun at it's current incarnation, maybe assault it to 24. Vets should be 1 point cheaper than they are now. The gun isn't all that bad, tis the cost effectiveness.

I don't think that I4 W4 makes them too similar to marines. For me it is the S4 T4 that makes the marine the colossus that he is on the battle field. WS isn't too important under the current rule set and I think that upgrading it wouldn't warp their position too much but would fit better with the fluff. Thumbs up on the assaulting hellgun too, let's not just make it another shotgun though

*scratches head*

You didn't really make them a counterassault unit, though, did you...just made them a bit more shooty. I think George puts his finger on it when he says to make them Guard Infantry - that would even let their entry get cleaned up a little bit, with Deep Strike and Infiltrate covered by doctrines. Heck, even keep the WS4 - so IG has one unit that hits MEQs on 5+ with Hardened Fighters, an otherwise worthless doctrine. Being Guard Infantry, you could also make them Abhumans -> Homo Sapiens Variatus - so you could potentially have, with the right combination of doctrines, STs that assault at WS5 S4 I5. Considering they don't have additional hand weapons, eat an elites slot (or else ANOTHER doctrine) and come in small squads, that still doesn't give Rough Riders a run for their money as a proper counter-charge unit.

STs have their use with Mechanized regiments with the current rules - not being Guard Infantry, they're the only option for Deep Strike, 'sides Schaeffer.

What if they kept the current statline but got BS4 and a Range 12/18 Str3Ap5 Assault3 weapon? They always struck me as the "kick in the door, light up the room, then club/handcuff" types. It seems to me they should have short range, building to building, room to room sort of weapons. Sort of the SWAT team of the IG. Then perhaps give them an option of a 12" Str4 Ap-0 As2 Ignores cover Shotgun for free.

Of course, this vision of them might be more appropriate to small scale city engagements as opposed to battle field pitched battles.

So I am wondering, what is the current situation of the take on my proposal? I believe we all agree they can be WS4. It fits the fluff pretty well. Having an I4 might not be needed, and I am satisfied with that. The last case is with the Hellgun. Frankly why not just give them a Bolter each? If you want to keep the Hellgun, it has to be Assault to differentiate it from a Boltgun and still have advantages over the Boltgun.

Calixtus wrote:So I am wondering, what is the current situation of the take on my proposal? I believe we all agree they can be WS4. It fits the fluff pretty well. Having an I4 might not be needed, and I am satisfied with that. The last case is with the Hellgun. Frankly why not just give them a Bolter each? If you want to keep the Hellgun, it has to be Assault to differentiate it from a Boltgun and still have advantages over the Boltgun.

I think most of the replies on this thread were split between changing WS3 to WS4. I'm still not sure how it fits the fluff-see my first post in the thread for a note on that.

Most (myself included) seemed to favor some kind of Assault weapon over having another bolter statline in the game. I actually like Wehrkind's idea on the gun alot (12 or 18", Assault 3) as it introduces a much more unique statline into the game (very high rate of volume, mediocre/low strength).

I don't think rolling more dice (Assault 3) is the way to go. Str 4 Ap - Range 24" Rapid fire with a change to the Targeter rules that allows models with one to assault if they fired rapid fire weapons gives them a lot more flexibility. Points values aren't really an issue IMO. Str 4 weapns can also damage AV 10 vehicles, that's very important for IG.

I'd also make the veteran Sergeant option obligatory. Which weapon upgrades should ST Veteran Sergeants have if ST's have a Dark Angel style codex entry?

George Spiggott wrote:
I'd also make the veteran Sergeant option obligatory. Which weapon upgrades should ST Veteran Sergeants have if ST's have a Dark Angel style codex entry?

I would think Plasma pistol/power weapon/melta-bombs would be the options given

What about Bolt pistol, Bolter and Stormbolter? It would simplify the process to leave Meltabombs as a unit upgrade.

Losing Stormbolter as an option would be bad news for me, all three of my IG Stromtroopers are equipped with Stormbolters.

George Spiggott wrote:What about Bolt pistol, Bolter and Stormbolter? It would simplify the process to leave Meltabombs as a unit upgrade.

Losing Stormbolter as an option would be bad news for me, all three of my IG Stromtroopers are equipped with Stormbolters.

They might keep them, but I could see them being sacrificed for "simplification." Unfortuantely, I wouldn't count on those options being preserved. Given that the latest Marine codexes have largely eliminated whole squads buying meltabombs (Vet. Sgts. only now for Assault Squads, etc.) I would be extremely surprised if a new Guard codex gave stormtroopers the ability to give them out to the whole squad.

George Spiggott wrote:I don't think rolling more dice (Assault 3) is the way to go. Str 4 Ap - Range 24" Rapid fire with a change to the Targeter rules that allows models with one to assault if they fired rapid fire weapons gives them a lot more flexibility. Points values aren't really an issue IMO. Str 4 weapns can also damage AV 10 vehicles, that's very important for IG.

I'd also make the veteran Sergeant option obligatory. Which weapon upgrades should ST Veteran Sergeants have if ST's have a Dark Angel style codex entry?

Working with my MathHammer utility, I am finding that Str 4 AP 0 is less effective than the existing Hellgun by about ~3.5% on GEQs per shot. I'm not totally convinced about Bolter Lite, against MEQs I'm just as effective Str 3 with 3 shots (storm lasgun) as Str 4 is with 2 shots(Bolter Lite). Vets are still much more effective points wise ( you can do the math yourself, I used 10 vets with Storm bolter and 3 plasmas versus 10 Stomies with 2 plasmas). Either way it's about a 50% buff to the Stormtroopers gun comfortably between the lasgun and bolter( ~7.5% lasgun 11% Bolter & Bolter Lite). Against GEQs Bolter Lite is a little more effective where Assault 3 Str 3 AP0 is effectively equal to the existing Hellgun (thought all are less effective than the bolter) at 12 or less. Beyond 12 assaulting either weapon is anywhere from 28% (Bolter Lite) to 33% more effective (Str3 AP0 Lasgun) than the Hellgun and 16%(Bolter Lite) to 22% more effective than the Real Bolter.


Hmmmm, on second thought Assaulting both makes them really evil at 12-24 on GEQ. Maybe rapid fire would fire would be more balanced...Hmmmm, In the case of the Str 3 ap0 maybe rapid fire+1?

Either way, Stormtroopers need a buff, and making more assaulty via WS just makes them Marine Lite, if they are used to counter charge then for all intensive purposes they are there for the durability, not becuase they are really good at this, that's what marines do.

(I'm still thinking about this. )

I'm not trying to hijack the thread, but instead of concentrating on their small arms maybe all they need is a third special weapon and both infiltrate and deep strike for free, maybe even with a re-roll.

That's what they're meant to do, really. Be a commando squad.

That said, giving them I4 and maybe even WS4 isn't unreasonable (since that is the same benefit from close order drill). It's not that they're individually that awesome, it's that they are trained to work in concert.

Ben Dejo wrote:Working with my MathHammer utility, I am finding that Str 4 AP 0 is less effective than the existing Hellgun by about ~3.5% on GEQs per shot. I'm not totally convinced about Bolter Lite, against MEQs I'm just as effective Str 3 with 3 shots (storm lasgun) as Str 4 is with 2 shots(Bolter Lite). Vets are still much more effective points wise ( you can do the math yourself, I used 10 vets with Storm bolter and 3 plasmas versus 10 Stomies with 2 plasmas). Either way it's about a 50% buff to the Stormtroopers gun comfortably between the lasgun and bolter( ~7.5% lasgun 11% Bolter & Bolter Lite). Against GEQs Bolter Lite is a little more effective where Assault 3 Str 3 AP0 is effectively equal to the existing Hellgun (thought all are less effective than the bolter) at 12 or less. Beyond 12 assaulting either weapon is anywhere from 28% (Bolter Lite) to 33% more effective (Str3 AP0 Lasgun) than the Hellgun and 16%(Bolter Lite) to 22% more effective than the Real Bolter.


Hmmmm, on second thought Assaulting both makes them really evil at 12-24 on GEQ. Maybe rapid fire would fire would be more balanced...Hmmmm, In the case of the Str 3 ap0 maybe rapid fire+1

I'll take -3.5% vs. GEQ if I can damage Land speeders, Raiders, Vipers and other AV 10 models. Dark Angel Scouts hit just as hard when they shoot (before special weapons) but have more survivabilit and hit harder in close combat.

On the other hand Tau stealth teams have assault three (Str 5 AP 5) weapons so maybe it's not that out of place.