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Alright, so I'm making an Eldar list. As a preface, I'm looking to use units that I've bought because, well, they're cool looking and so the list is basically built around the idea of making an army that doesn't suck despite several ill-advised army choices. For giggles, guess which units I'm not moving?

Farseer
Runes of Witnessing
Mind War
Doom
Spirit Stones
His job is to run around Doom-ing things and picking off hidden powerfists and the like, potentially as a backup with the Avengers

Farseer
Runes of Witnessing
Runes of Warding
Guide
Self explanatory really, makes shooty things shoot harder and with greater success

6 Fire Dragons

6 Harlequins
6x Harlequin's Kiss
Shadowseer
Pretty standard these days, I bought the Fire Dragons before I thought they were any good I swear

8 Dire Avengers
Exarch
Twin Catapults
Bladestorm
They sit in the centre, and maybe if they're lucky they'll get to shoot things, and maybe get a little mobile, which leads to...

Wave Serpent
Brightlances
Spirit Stones
I know, I know, hear me out. My Heavy Support slots are full and I felt the need for an anti-tank gun. Will maybe on occasion move the Avengers and first Farseer somewhere, otherwise will avoid shooting if possible and maybe sponge hits away from important things. Can easily be switched to EMLs.

10 Guardians
Starcannon

10 Guardians
Starcannon
Back in my day, these used to be a staple... Suffice to say I really hate the Ranger models

3 Guardian Jetbikes
Shuriken Cannon
There to get in the way, zip around and make vroomy noises. I really just had some points left over and figured they could zip into assault and block LOS for a turn as my Harlies or Dragons get into position.

Vyper
Scatter Laser

Vyper
Scatter Laser
These guys exist because I felt like I needed something that could grab objectives or contest quarters. By all intents they'll avoid LOS entirely, and at best be a nuisance. The Lasers are on there because 36" range means they might get a chance to shoot their gun and not be shot down by bolters

Wraithlord
Brightlance
Eldar Missile Launcher
He shoots things

Falcon Grav Tank
Shuriken Cannon
Spirit Stones
Holofield
Vectored Engines
Also a standard choice, can't be beat

3 War Walkers
4 Star Cannon
2 Scatter Laser
Originally I thought it would be cool to have all Lasers, just think of the shots! But then I realized that they were going to die to any fire that came their way and for the points cost they may as well have a chance of actually killing something decent. Once again, I need to hope for terrain and LOS blocking

And that's it! I'm open to flexibility, especially on weapon loadouts and such. Also my math may be wonky, it is late.

Thoughts/comments?

Why do you feel that the Farseers need RoWitnessing? It's really unnecessary and increases the odds of the model killing itself. The only times I'd actually consider it a good thing are when you're facing another Eldar player with RoWarding or a nid player with Shadow, and these two special occasions aren't enough to outweigh the libaility that RoWitnessing represents in all other possible match-ups.

Either your FDs or Harlies will end up footslogging, since there's only one Falcon. That's tantamount to throwing one of them in the bin at the start of the game.

What's with the starcannon spam on the Guardian units? Starcannons suck. Get scatters instead.

I don't understand your reasoning re: the War Walkers. You realised that they're going to die quickly to focus fire, and so you decided to. . . give them more expensive weapons? The what now?

Footslogging Harlies are useless even with Fleet and Veil of Tears? I mean, it's not a great situation for them, but I have a hard time finding them bin-worthy.

So how would you spread things around? I could just get a Serpent for the Fire Dragons, or even just move the one on the Avengers to them.

The reasoning on the War Walkers was simple, that it's worth the 40 or so odd points so that they can actually injure the likes of Marines, Terminators, MC's, hell even anything with a 4+ save. With Scatters and Shuriken the only people not getting their armour save against this army are Guard and some Orks, and there's a lot of nasty units that need cracking that a couple Brightlances aren't gonna cut it.

If you play in a competitive environment, then drop the War Walkers for another Falcon. A guiding Farseer is not worth the points. Generally, a footslogging Farseer is in danger of a drop podded or deep striking unit. I would mount him on a jetbike and give him a shining spear, doom, and either mindwar or eldritch storm.

Turtle:

Footslogging Harlies are useless even with Fleet and Veil of Tears? I mean, it's not a great situation for them, but I have a hard time finding them bin-worthy.

They aren't literally useless, but they will struggle to achieve much. All it takes is a FotA libby, a minefield or a fast moving shooty unit to ruin their day.

So how would you spread things around? I could just get a Serpent for the Fire Dragons, or even just move the one on the Avengers to them.

Then you're left with foot-slogging Avengers, just as bad. Serpents aren't all that, but they're still better than walking. Better yet, drop the WL and get another Falcon.

The reasoning on the War Walkers was simple, that it's worth the 40 or so odd points so that they can actually injure the likes of Marines, Terminators, MC's, hell even anything with a 4+ save. With Scatters and Shuriken the only people not getting their armour save against this army are Guard and some Orks

Pure scatters suck against Termies, but they're okay against 3+--they're 2/3 as good as a starcannon, and equal to or better than it when they're in cover.

and there's a lot of nasty units that need cracking that a couple Brightlances aren't gonna cut it.

Isn't that what Harlies and FDs are for?

Turtle wrote:Alright, so I'm making an Eldar list. As a preface, I'm looking to use units that I've bought because, well, they're cool looking and so the list is basically built around the idea of making an army that doesn't suck despite several ill-advised army choices. For giggles, guess which units I'm not moving?

I giggle at the DA.

Turtle wrote:
Farseer
Runes of Witnessing
Mind War
Doom
Spirit Stones
His job is to run around Doom-ing things and picking off hidden powerfists and the like, potentially as a backup with the Avengers

He's not on a jetbike. Dooming isn't so easy. Picking off PF? lol well ok but your army is going to get shot to death, not assaulted.

Turtle wrote:
Farseer
Runes of Witnessing
Runes of Warding
Guide
Self explanatory really, makes shooty things shoot harder and with greater success

So he's guiding the war walkers. Then they die, and he's guiding what?

Turtle wrote:
6 Fire Dragons

Good unit.

Turtle wrote:
6 Harlequins
6x Harlequin's Kiss
Shadowseer
Pretty standard these days, I bought the Fire Dragons before I thought they were any good I swear

Bad unit.

Worse, it's too big for the Falcon.

Turtle wrote:
8 Dire Avengers
Exarch
Twin Catapults
Bladestorm
They sit in the centre, and maybe if they're lucky they'll get to shoot things, and maybe get a little mobile, which leads to...

They will shoot once, and die.

Turtle wrote:
Wave Serpent
Brightlances
Spirit Stones
I know, I know, hear me out. My Heavy Support slots are full and I felt the need for an anti-tank gun. Will maybe on occasion move the Avengers and first Farseer somewhere, otherwise will avoid shooting if possible and maybe sponge hits away from important things. Can easily be switched to EMLs.

If only. It's not good against your biggest threats, which are other Tau/Eldar mechanized lists.

Give it a scatter laser and shuricat. Makes it very dangerous.

Turtle wrote:
10 Guardians
Starcannon

Turtle wrote:
10 Guardians
Starcannon
Back in my day, these used to be a staple... Suffice to say I really hate the Ranger models

These are fine. Just be sure to use the hide-and-peek gunner trick.

Turtle wrote:
3 Guardian Jetbikes
Shuriken Cannon
There to get in the way, zip around and make vroomy noises. I really just had some points left over and figured they could zip into assault and block LOS for a turn as my Harlies or Dragons get into position.

They die in assault. They're great for JSJ.

Turtle wrote:
Vyper
Scatter Laser

Turtle wrote:
Vyper
Scatter Laser
These guys exist because I felt like I needed something that could grab objectives or contest quarters. By all intents they'll avoid LOS entirely, and at best be a nuisance. The Lasers are on there because 36" range means they might get a chance to shoot their gun and not be shot down by bolters

Give them a shuricannon. When the time comes, the extra shots help. These are great for moving up on turn 1 and getting side shots on enemy armor.

Turtle wrote:
Wraithlord
Brightlance
Eldar Missile Launcher
He shoots things

Good choice of weapons.

Turtle wrote:
Falcon Grav Tank
Shuriken Cannon
Spirit Stones
Holofield
Vectored Engines
Also a standard choice, can't be beat

Should have a scatter laser and shuricannon, or what?

Turtle wrote:
3 War Walkers
4 Star Cannon
2 Scatter Laser
Originally I thought it would be cool to have all Lasers, just think of the shots! But then I realized that they were going to die to any fire that came their way and for the points cost they may as well have a chance of actually killing something decent. Once again, I need to hope for terrain and LOS blocking

Scatter lasers are fine. Lots of shots. Starcannons annoy marines, but that's about it.

Turtle wrote:
And that's it! I'm open to flexibility, especially on weapon loadouts and such. Also my math may be wonky, it is late.

Thoughts/comments?

It's gonna be tricky, but it looks overall like a good list needing only a little tweaking.

I agree with most of Stelek & T-C's comments. Warwalkers die really fast. A couple with pure shuricannons or scatters could be decent if you use terrain to hide them as much as possible. But overall they're just really fragile.

I actually like DA to some extent. They can work in the context of a mechanized list, and a footslogging squad can be okay too as long as you keep them cheap. I field them without any upgrades when I field them (which is mostly for comp/fluffiness).

Yeah, I agree on the DA being good for mechanized lists. They are cheaper than the guardians with the SC, and can put out a nice hail of anti-infantry fire from a WS. I posted such a list, the DA were not there really to kill anything (but hey if they can, why not) but to be around at game end to take objectives/quarters while hiding around midfield.

Annoying units can be made into game winners/breakers if you hide them long enough and can afford not to have their points doing much the whole game. 5 DA are cheap enough you can do that.

60 points vs 85/95 points.

Good points by Stelek. Just one thing, though:

Bad unit.

Worse, it's too big for the Falcon.

I know you've treated the lot of us to your "Harlies suck" speech before, but the OP may not have had the privilege, so "bad unit" may be a bit elss than useful. Actually, maybe those of us who've heard it before could benefit, too. It may sound more convincing the second time around!

And it isn't too big for the Falcon. It's a 6-clown unit. The Shadow Seer is one of the 6 Harlies, and s/he also has a Kiss.

Oh my bad, I thought it was in AB format so it'd be 6+seer.

I don't like Harlies because I think Fire Dragons are better all around.

Harlies have a shorter move available.

Dismount, 2.99" + 6" + D6" fleet + 6" charge.

15.99 - 20.99.

Fire Dragons: Falcon moves 12", dismount 2.99", shoot 12".

26.99, always.

Harlies get alot of rolls, and are probably going to kill infantry.

Harlies can't kill T8 creatures, and they can't do anything against skimmers except hope...and they don't do so good against AV14 vehicles. Woo you rended? Ok that's...S9? Roll a 5 for a glance...

Fire Dragons only get 5-6 rolls, but they can tackle anything in the game--including MC, land raiders, and skimmers.

Harlies cost alot in a Eldar army. Might not seem that way, but once you load up on troops (160-220 points), heavies (600 points, give or take), HQ's (100-300 points), you really need to be efficient with your remaining points.

Fire dragons are 80 points, 96 if you take 6. I usually just go with 5, it's enough to scare everyone.

If all you want to do is survive to the end of the game then dump out a unit and take an objective, why pay for Harlequins when a cheaper unit will do? Since that's what everyone tells me they are 'the uber' for, seems silly to run a shooty mobile army but let someone get on an objective and then hope you can shoo them away with Harlequins.

Force them back with tank shock, shoot them with the FD, and see if you don't suddenly end up with the objective anyway. I prefer shooting over close combat, because the designers of this game aren't called Chambers anymore, and assault is dead dead dead.

I second Stelek.
A FD squad incl an Exarch with dragon breath costs 96 or 108 pts an is very effective, also against troops in cover.

Thanks all for the comments, much more than I'm used to getting by any means. After some deliberation and retooling (and wallet wringing over how much this might cost me) I've cranked out another list. (and I'm on a Mac these days, unfortunately meaning no AB)

Farseer 168pts
Runes of Warding
Mind War
Doom
Spirit Stones
Singing Spear
Jetbike
Jetbike advice taken, the mobility and the Spear open up some opportunities for this fellow

6 Fire Dragons 96pts
Wave Serpent 125pts
Scatter Lasers
Spirit Stones

6 Harlequins 162pts
6x Harlequin's Kiss
Shadowseer
These guys remain in because, even though Stelek's arguments are convincing if other people think they're very dangerous then that can work in my favour, and it's just nice to work in some model variety for both my sake and so my opponents don't hate me

8 Dire Avengers 128pts
Exarch
Twin Catapults
Bladestorm
To be honest, right now I'm liking this unit simply as a slightly harder (than Guardians) squad that can hang around in the background. If they're only shooting once, I might as well make it count for twice.
Wave Serpent 125pts
Scatter Lasers
Spirit Stones

10 Guardians 105pts
Starcannon

10 Guardians 105pts
Starcannon

3 Guardian Jetbikes 72pts
Shuriken Cannon

3 Guardian Jetbikes 72pts
Shuriken Cannon
Right now I like these two squads because it makes the bike-riding Farseer make much more sense visually, plus they're cheap, mobile, and pack a little punch

Vyper 70pts
Scatter Laser

Vyper 70pts
Scatter Laser
The Shuricans are on there by advice, I'm wondering if I'd be better served downgrading the Lasers to cannons so that I can give the Serpents Shuricans as well?

Wraithlord 155pts
Brightlance
Eldar Missile Launcher

Falcon Grav Tank 205pts
Scatter Laser
Shuriken Cannon
Spirit Stones
Holofield
Vectored Engines

2 War Walkers 140pts
2 Star Cannon
2 Scatter Laser
These guys have had a bit of a weight trim

And there we have it! I was contemplating swapping out the Avengers for more Fire Dragons and then spreading the spare points out for more weapon upgrades (namely Cannons on the Serpents) or simply cutting more cost off of the Avengers themselves. Any advice anyone wants to give me on using the bikers effectively?

I can also swap the bikes out for a unit of 6 Scorpions with an Exarch, Fist, and Infiltrate, which is a unit I like personally but I don't think it really works in the context of the list I've got.

Thoughts/comments?

Stelek wrote:

Harlies can't kill T8 creatures, and they can't do anything against skimmers except hope...and they don't do so good against AV14 vehicles. Woo you rended? Ok that's...S9? Roll a 5 for a glance...

Harlies are always str 10 when they rend vehicles. Don't they have furious charge and thus str +1? I've seen a unit of 6 Harlies with 2 fusion pistols run rampant through TMC's. Fire Dragons will shoot a lone TMC and then die. Both units have their place. Taking one of each would be the best.

Ah true they are S4 base. I wouldn't be too shocked if they bounced off a moving land raider or a monolith.

Just curious, how many TMC's are in assault range when the Harlies come out to play? And where are their genestealer bodyguards?

That's the thing about Fire prisms. The Carnifexes don't want to bunch up as a wall because ap2 templates are coming in and the stealers don't want to not be behind a wall because an ap 4 bigger template would come in. What to do, what to do.

Removing the Stealers is priority number 1 for the Eldar. If that proves impossible it is most likely because a big wall of TMC is in the way. You need to either punch through that wall at one spot and have a template shot waiting to pass through the hole to the stealers or, if you have room, fly off to the sides and hit the stealers behind the wall with Prisms.

The Falcon, with harlies, can zoom up 30" to be ready to assault a heavy fex away from the main body (hiding in a nice 4+ cover save spot) or up to one side of the TMC wall. Next turn, if the opportunity avails itself, jump out, fire 2 fusion pistols and jump the TMC.

If you have one unit of harlies (with falcon), one unit of Fire Dragons ( with serpent), and 2 Fire Prisms. You could generate a bunch of stealer damage. At some point the harlies and dragons make their way to one end of the TMC wall in transports. Harlies closer and dragons a little further back. Then the dragons move up in transport and clear away stealers near that end (heavy flamer), while Harlies jump out and assault the TMC wall.

Ah. Well fyi I run 8 TMC in a line with gaunts on the end, and stealers behind. It's stupid good.

And those tactics are a little too subtle. The whole army is within shooting range from end to end...it's not hard to counterassault with 4 MC and a stealer unit or two. So far no one's survived that nonsensical counterassault, but few have tried it...

Problem is getting through the wall with a normal setup for Eldar, it's difficult. Still not sure my own Eldar can do it, and they're really tough if ya ask me.

Fire Prisms are cool and all but it's my love of walking robots that has the WL and War Walkers in this list, and that's not likely to change. And unless I decide to take these bad boys to a tournament at some point I doubt I'll be up against Stealer Shock, and by the time the army will be completed/painted to my standard 5th will be out, at least according to rumours.

I'm really just looking for suggestions on giving the Wave Serpents Shuriken Cannons and possibly more uses for the Jetbikes other than looking cool and zipping around.

Following your thread since I have no clue what the current Eldar can do. Of course, I'm the opposite in that I'm a fan of the Rangers whereas you hate them. We should try to game sometime.

Which Turtle are you?

I'm the one that isn't tortoise, in that I'm Canadian not British and I don't post pictures of painted models.

I like your current list. It’s playable and fluffy, has a good model count and a fun variety of units.

As for your question, I do really like underslung shuricannons for every skimmer. If it were me, I’d probably drop one of the Vypers. That frees up 70pts, which is enough to give both Serpents the cannons and Vectored Engines. Halving their chance to die outright on a glance is a big deal. That leaves you 12pts total. I don’t have my codex with me, but if you dropped one Fire Dragon, I think that’d leave you enough points to upgrade one to an Exarch with Dragon’s Breath. He really adds to the flexibility and general utility of the unit.

Thanks Mannahnin, good to see you around after all these years too.

I'm iffy on the flamer mostly because I'm not a fan of mixed utility in a unit that's so specialized (I took squads of chaos marines with a melta and a flamer to the Canadian GT once, but that was back when you could shoot one thing and charge another and I was young and idealistic). It is worth looking into though, I'll give it a shot.

Thanks Turtle. Glad to see another old-schooler.

Give it a try. Back in the day when I played Eldar exclusively, I regularly (not all the time, but a significant percentage) found that I'd run into situations where the fire dragons didn't have the right guns for the job at hand. If it were just a flamer I wouldn't bother, but an S5 AP4 heavy flamer is just a beautiful thing.

Not to mention the reroll.

Another nice thing is that if your opponent isn't careful, you can often pop a vehicle with the normal Dragons and still be able to roast a few models in a nearby squad.