Are (SM) Sniper Rifles as bad as I think?

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**Terminizzle**

Forgive my cluelessness, but here's how I understand Space Marine Scout Sniper Rifles to work:
- Hit on a 2+, so for a squad of 6, 5 out of 6 hits
- Wound on a 4+, so for the same squad, 2.5 wounds
- Armor saves allowed as normal, unless Sv is 6+ ?

So if you're shooting another Marines squad, 6 sniper rifles takes out about 1 Marine. If you're shooting a Terminator Squad, you remove about 0.4 Terminators. If you're shooting a Squad of Dark Eldar Warriors, you would kill about 2 Warriors.

If that's all accurate, and I'm not missing anything, why would anyone ever take Sniper Rifles for SM Scouts? Pinning?

**Darrian13**

You are right. The key to them is shooting at units that have a T of 5 or greater then the wounding on 4+ is cool. Pinning is usually the best thing about them.

Eldar sniper rifles are so much better than marine sniper rifles.

Darrian

**Tacobake**

They can take an infiltrating Missile Launcher, too.

They're not bad, but it's too bad they don't wound on a 3+.

And they're not worth it in Elites, Vets are much better and equally characterful. But they're still cheaper as far as infiltrate/shootyness is concerned.

**MagickalMemories**

Tacobake wrote:And they're not worth it in Elites, Vets are much better and equally characterful. But they're still cheaper as far as infiltrate/shootyness is concerned.

Scouts are a Troop choice.

You've got it dead on. The pinning is what Sniper rifles is all about.
IMO, however, if you're taking 6 scouts with sniper rifles, you're doing it wrong.
IMO, you need a 10 strong unit (8, at minimum).

10 shots hitting on 2 = 8.33 (repeating) hits

8.333 hits @ 4's to wound = 4.166 (repeating) wounds

On 4+ armor saves, you'll get just over 2 wounds unsaved.
On 3+ saves, you get 1.38 (repeating) unsaved wounds.
On 2+ saves, you get .694 9repeating) unsaved wounds.

Clearly, Scout snipers aren't the greatest unit in the game, but I like them. You do need 2 units (again, IMO) to make them worthwhile.

That being said, I have to agree that eldar snipers (pathfinders, specifically) are far superior... not that it matters for this discussion.

Eric

**wuestenfux**

They are. Pathfinders are much better, better rifles and better saves (in cover).
Sniper Scouts are good for (1) occupying quarters at the start of the game, (2) pinning units with lower armour save, and (3) wounding high toughness creatures.

**Sarigar**

I believe they are a situational unit. I played against a nearly all Scout army yesterday. While Sniper Rifles didn't do much to my Guardians, they were making me worry about my Wraithlord. After losing 2 wounds off the Wraithlord to Snipers, I had to reposition myself as to avoid them.

wustenfux has the gist of it regarding Sniper Scouts.

**Darrian13**

@MagicalMemories, So you have 2 squads of 10 scouts. Wouldn't it be better to have 4 squads of 5 scouts? That way you can cause, up to, 4 pinning checks a round, instead of 2? I guess the only problem might be troop slots, but you do have 6 of them.

Darrian

**Terminizzle**

Don't get me wrong, I definitely like Scouts as a unit very much in terms of both usefulness and how cool they are. I've been fielding a squad of 6 with 5 Snipers and a Missile Launcher, but fairly often I think I'd just rather have a unit of infiltrating Vets with a Plas and Power Fist.
Thanks for helping clear that up, everyone. I guess I play against too many armies with lots of fearless units to really benefit a lot from Scouts with sniper rifles.

**wuestenfux**

Yeah, sniper rifles are not good vs fearless units. The situation is different if you battle IG, Tau, Eldar, DE.

**Anung Un Rama**

yea, but if you battle guad or space elfs, the 4+ wounding is actually a bad thing. I suppose it would work best against 'zillanids and nurgle chaos.

**lord_sutekh**

18 pts. for a very situational weapon and a 4+ save seems like bad spending, to me... I'd rather bank on LCs and MLs to take on the big baddies.

**Hellfury**

While SM sniper scouts arent the end of an argument concerning a good unit, they do have their uses.

One or two small squads are handy in all comers lists as they can take on:

Light vehicles (AV 12 or less)

High toughness critters

Pin average leadership infantry

I do think they are a bit overpriced, but adding a ML to a squad raises their utility rate, highly.
I would love to take larger sniper units, but I think they are a gamble as it is without wasting the points better spent on a second five man squad with an ML.
Darrian is right, two small units are far better than one large one. They are either going to work wonderfully or fail miserably. Having large numbers in a squad wont change that enough to make it worth spending more points on the gamble that they will be effective.

I will say though, that the points can often be better spent elsewhere rather than on sniper scouts. But sniper scouts arent a horrible choice, they do have good uses.

**MagickalMemories**

Darrian13 wrote:@MagicalMemories, So you have 2 squads of 10 scouts. Wouldn't it be better to have 4 squads of 5 scouts? That way you can cause, up to, 4 pinning checks a round, instead of 2? I guess the only problem might be troop slots, but you do have 6 of them.

Darrian

(Keeping in mind that I'm speaking IMO)

Not at all.

If you have 2 squads of 5... well, like you said, that's two-thirds of your Troops choices used up.
Additionally, however, you're going to be making a LOT more Ld checks. If you lose 2 models in a unit of 5, your making a Ld check.Sure, it's only 1 more for a 10-strong unit, but look farther.

Turn 1, you lose 3 models from your unit of 5 & your unit of 10.
Your unit of 5 is no longer scoring, and has to make a modified Ld check.
Your unit of 10 is still scoring and makes a Ld check.

In your following turn, which unit is more valuable?

If these were both 5-strong units, neither would be scoring.

Two turns like that & you're SOL.

Now, sure, they could be equipped with better weapons than sniper rifles. No doubt about that. I'm just trying to focus my comments on the question at hand. I tend to go off on a tangent if I don't.

Eric

**Darrian13**

2 troop choices is one third of your 6 available.

I see your point about survivability, and I guess that makes sense, but are you really counting on your scouts to survive if your opponent pays any more than minimal attention to them? I just use mine as an annoyance unit that occasionally does something spectacular.

Darrian

**Hellfury**

The way I see it, and how I see most opponents react, is that while snipers arent dazzling they are too good for an opponent to ignore.
They are relatively expensive, so eliminating them yields a decent amount of VPs for minimal effort.

That is, you will be quite lucky to see them survive for longer than 2 turns if you have a canny opponent. Large size or no.

I will admit I do not often field max sized units of sniper scouts, so I am biased. But I really dont see a great deal of advantage to warrant spending more points on sniper scouts.

**Stelek**

Space Marine scouts scare only players with monstrous creatures. They really aren't good in small quantities, they however can be a very real threat if you bring alot of them.

Think of them like Tau Fire Warrior units, only they aren't complete crap in close combat, and you won't be far off.

I faced off against 60 scouts once. It wasn't pleasant. If I'd had a MC or static army, it would have probably been a very close thing--being mobile saved me alot of hassle.

I don't find pathfinders to be very good or 'scary'. They fold in close combat, they rely on lucky rolls to be effective, and are quite pricey. People with flamers love those guys for a reason.

**HellsGuardian316**

A while back I tried a total scout army, fielding multiple groups of 4snipers 1missile and a few 10xclose combat scout groups backed up with whirlwinds, speeders, dreadnoughts, assualt marines and command squad. A really really mobile army.

It looked good on paper, it felt good to use, but it played like cr@p on a stick!
I lost every game except 1 using this army despite it looking excellent on paper as it lacked the toughness of standard SM armies and the scouts got picked off easily even when in cover.

In a nut shell the scout sniper I feel is a very effective weapon against tough models and has a good use of pinning against normal troopers as well. But they lacks the durabilty/toughness when scouts are fielded in large numbers in-place of marines. What I'm trying to say is that if you want to use scouts then I'd recommend trying to use small squads of snipers to make use of multiple pinning and make sure they can be backed up with plenty of marines and other tougher choices to keep the enemy from targetting them.

Granted that scouts are not really feared by the enemy per se, but when they infiltrate close to an enemy then the enemy tends to get a bit trigger happy and also tends to have lots of guns able to shoot them whilst terrain blocks sight to anything else. IMHO of course

**akira5665**

Ok, I will start this off with IMHO.

2 squads of 10 man scouts with sniper rifles are excellent strategic assets. I place them @ least within 18" of an opponents troops, within sight of them, and proceed to pepper them. As an annoyance, 180 points may seem a bit steep. But, 10 wounds, with 4+ armour(and let's face it, any General worth his salt is going to deploy them in cover, so for 1 turn they have an Invun. save....., and the 'ability' to wound anything on the board, and vehicles AV 12 or less.

Either way, they are going to cause/draw fire. 360 points(2 squads) -20 wounds/infiltrate blah blah, it's a great deal.

With a statline of a Marine, and the save of a Terminator on the first turn/possibly kill ANY MC......nice 18 points.

I think they are not used alot for a few different reasons, one being Marine players tend towards a basis of Armour save/ATSKNF etc.

I personally am in DP mode, so my whole Army Deep strikes, but I used to use them alot, effectively.

Except against DIRTY NIDS. They would just consider my Scouts as appetisers, B4 the main meal! lol

**Terminizzle**

I don't think it's the armor that makes them not worthwhile; I think it's just the gun itself. Take your 20 scouts shooting a Hive Tyrant- 20 shots = 16.67 hits = 8.33 wounds = 1.39 missed saves. 360 points for 1-2 wounds on a Tyrant? You'd have been much better off with 3 Las/Plas squads.

**skyth**

Try 20 scouts shooting at a Dakkafex...16.7 hits, 8.3 wounds, 2.77 failed saves.

3 lascannons (right now ~Equal points cost) 2 hits, 1.7 wounds, 1.1 failed saves (Assuming 5+ cover)

**40kenthusiast**

I play a C'tan. I hate to see Snipers on the other side.

**Phoenix**

As most people have pointed out, they are situational. In general, with the meta game being what it is, it might not be a bad idea to put a squad in your army. However, more than one large one (or two small ones) is probably just flushing your points down the toilet. They are not stellar against all comers. They are useful against a few specific targets (high toughness creatures and low leadership troops) and that’s about it. They struggle against anything with a good armor save too.

**corinth**

i've not regretted the times my dark angles army took 10 scouts.

deployed in combat squads to deny the opponent's CC infiltrators anywhere decent to set up they earn their points before the game even starts.

point for point they really don't compare to basic marines though, so i wouldn't ever use more than the one squad.

**HellsGuardian316**

Phoenix wrote:As most people have pointed out, they are situational.

I think thats a very accurate description. Scouts snipers won't win you games and certainly won't be a mass murder weapon either, but the weapon itself and the scouts "Move through Cover" and infiltrate abilities means you can add another strategy element into your games making you more adaptable to changing situations.

Although I no longer use my scouts they can definatly play a good part in any army of Marines(though I'd still recomend 5man squad max and only a few of those squads as well)

**Boss Salvage**

5th ed. should do nice things for the sniper rifle:

- All snipers gain 'rending' (6 to wound (or to hit?) = AP1)
- Pinning modifiers stack, so 2 sniper casualties = -2 Ld, 3 = -3 Ld, etc.

Hope they follow through with the above, will help snipers (who aren't eldar) out a bunch.

- Salvage

**Tacobake**

Boss_Salvage wrote:- Pinning modifiers stack, so 2 sniper casualties = -2 Ld, 3 = -3 Ld, etc.

That's neat.