Two more Space Marine questions

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**Terminizzle**

I've been reading a lot of old posts about Nidzilla lists- specifically how Space Marines beat them. Basically I've concluded that there are a variety of approaches to taking out MC's, but none seem to work well enough to consistently beat 'Nids and still be decent against other armies. How do you do it?

Thinking about this lead me to my next question- is there any way a Character, like a Codicier, can be joined by a Command Squad equipped with Jump Packs? I know he can join an Assault Squad at the start of the game (which means after all units are deployed, right?), but if he could lead a Command Squad with the Infiltrate veteran skill and Jump Packs, he could get his Force Weapon in close combat with a Tyrant turn 1 with 6 + D3 attacks and re-rolls.

**Darrian13**

I don't lose to marines often with my Godzilla nidz, but one of the more memorable losses was to a SAFH list that had something like;
3 dev squads (4 h bolters each)
6 troops squads (6 man las plas)
6 land speeder tornadoes
5 assault termies (lightning claws)
termie command squad w/librarian (fury).

The table was low terrain and I just got shot to pieces crossing the board. The devs killed so many guants it was sick at least a squad a turn.

That was a bad beatdown.

Darrian

**Reaver83**

i'm no space marine player but i think jump packs and infiltrating are normally mutually exclusive things (they were in the old chaos one at least)

**Darrian13**

Shrikes' squad is the only infiltrating jump squad that I know of.

Darrian

**skyth**

Reaver83 wrote:i'm no space marine player but i think jump packs and infiltrating are normally mutually exclusive things (they were in the old chaos one at least)

Raptors used to be able to infiltrate no problem, along with IC's.

**Stelek**

Shrike is it for Jump Pack troops.

You can do a Sammael/Ravenwing assault on turn 2.

Dark Eldar can do the same thing, as can Eldar.

Most non-Eldar bike armies lack killy in close combat and vs vehicles though.

If you want to kill TMC, Jump Pack troops with Furious Charge do a decent job vs normal TMC.

Don't see much reason to infiltrate near Nids anyway, it's asking for trouble. They'll come to you, after all. Take a couple turns to soften them up with your shooty.

**Terminizzle**

Stelek wrote:

Don't see much reason to infiltrate near Nids anyway, it's asking for trouble. They'll come to you, after all. Take a couple turns to soften them up with your shooty.

Yeah, definitely. It was only worthwhile if I could assault Turn 1 somehow.

**wuestenfux**

Darrian's list is at least 2000 pts. Its a viable army, but Nids at this level can be really large.

**Terminizzle**

wuestenfux wrote:Darrian's list is at least 2000 pts. Its a viable army, but Nids at this level can be really large.

It's definitely solid, but if you built that list and ended up playing CSM 3 rounds in a row, you'd probably have a pretty hard time. Fortunately for me I don't play in tournaments, but do play against Chaos, 'Nids, Eldar, DE and Tau without knowing ahead of time which ones will show up. Here's what I've been working on:

Traits: See, but don’t be seen; Flesh over steel

HQ: Epistolary with Force Weapon, Terminator Honors, Bolt Pistol, Familiar, Jump Pack, Iron Halo, Frags, Veil of Time, Might of Heroes- 272
Elites: 5 Terminators; 2 Assault Cannons- 240
Troops: 6 Scouts, Veteran with Power Fist and Teleport Homer- 101
Troops: 6 Tactical Marines; 1 Las, 1 Plas, Veteran with Teleport Homer, Infiltrate- 153
Troops: 6 Tactical Marines; 1 Las, 1 Plas, Infiltrate- 133
(2) Troops: 6 Tactical Marines; 1 Las, 1 Plas- 115 x 2 = 230
(2) Heavy Support: 8 Devastators; 4 Heavy Bolters, Infiltrate- 204 x 2 = 408
1,537

I know the Epistolary is a massive points sink and I'm fairly sure the 37 points I cut will come from him, but I'm into using the figs I like, so he stays. Probably Veil of Time will go once I work out some math. Infiltrate on the 2 Tac's and Devs may seem odd, but on the table I'm used to it's definitely worthwhile.

I think the list is relatively strong vs. 'Nids and maybe not enough anti-tank vs. Tau, but other than that I'm not too worried about the other armies I face regularly.

**Stelek**

Always keep Veil of Time. It's sooo good for SM it's not funny.

You'll really miss it when it's gone.

**Terminizzle**

Stelek wrote:Always keep Veil of Time. It's sooo good for SM it's not funny.

You'll really miss it when it's gone.

Yeah, maybe I'll downgrade to Codicier and lose the + D3 attacks power.

**tegeus-Cromis**

Agreed, VoT is a great power.

Codiciers only give you a Ld 9 Hood. Keep the Epi, lose Might (replace with FotA) and some of the bling on him if you need to shave points.

**Terminizzle**

tegeus-Cromis wrote:Agreed, VoT is a great power.

Codiciers only give you a Ld 9 Hood. Keep the Epi, lose Might (replace with FotA) and some of the bling on him if you need to shave points.

Well, I want to use him to kill 'Nid MC's, so FotA isn't the best for him I think. What do you suggest I cut? Familiar is key to strike at same Initiative as Tyrants, Jump Pack to get him into CC ASAP, so basically Term Honors and Iron Halo are the real options. 5 Attacks means 3.75 hits (veil) which means .9375 wounds on T6. 6 Attacks means 4.5 hits which means 1.125 wounds. Although it's not a huge difference, getting that 1 wound is so crucial, I think I'd rather keep Term Honors than the Iron Halo, and losing the Halo plus Might puts me at 1,502 which is fine.

With those changes made, should I be all set to take on Nids, Chaos, Eldar, Dark Eldar, and Tau?

Another option I've considered is to drop the second Devastator Squad, but I can't decide what for. Something good for tanks, maybe an infiltrating Vet Squad with a meltagun and Chainfist?

EDIT: Actually, I'm just going to avoid typos. The Epistolary as I had him above is actually 227 points, not 272.

**Darrian13**

Thanks for the compliments guys, but that marine list was not my list. It was a list that crushed my bugz, like, well bugs.

I am not the greatest player around but I do know a couple of things about building marine lists that work very well.

1. Never ever deepstrike! You are losing at least 1 turn of shooting, usually more. The reason you spent all those points for the assault cannons is to shoot them. Try to use them every turn. If you disagree with me, fine but do me a favor. After every game that you use termies to deepstrike, go back over the game in your head and ask "would I have done better if my termies started on the table in the center of my line?"

2. Marine characters are all bad. Especially in close combat. Your marine hero is almost always statistically worse than your opponents hero, again especially in close combat. With that in mind, keep your heroes as cheap as possible and spend more points on your troops and heavy weapons. That is where your army really shines. The only things I like about my Marine heroes is the L:10 that the Master gives my other units and my Librarians use of FotA and FotD.

3. Always find ways to squeeze land speeder tornadoes into your list. These units are underpriced for what they do and provide you otherwise slow army with some very fast units.

I know these 3 things go against what most Marine players like to have in their army but I ask you to at least give it some thought.

Darrian

**tegeus-Cromis**

Well, I want to use him to kill 'Nid MC's, so FotA isn't the best for him I think.

Regardless of his role, FotA is still good. Just because you want him to stomp target type X in CC doesn't mean he can't cut swathes through target type Y with FotA for however many turns before he hits CC. As for the idea of going after TMCs, see the next part.

What do you suggest I cut? Familiar is key to strike at same Initiative as Tyrants, Jump Pack to get him into CC ASAP, so basically Term Honors and Iron Halo are the real options. 5 Attacks means 3.75 hits (veil) which means .9375 wounds on T6. 6 Attacks means 4.5 hits which means 1.125 wounds. Although it's not a huge difference, getting that 1 wound is so crucial, I think I'd rather keep Term Honors than the Iron Halo, and losing the Halo plus Might puts me at 1,502 which is fine.

You do realise you can't instakill the Tyrant, right, or any other 'nid in synapse range? Regardless of how much bling you put on him, he's still leaving the field in a bodybag if he tries to take it on. Forget about killing Tyrants, tool him to be good at what he's good at, and no more. None of the options you've taken (other than Might) are actually bad, but if you need to shave points, something's gotta go, and the libby doesn't absoltuely need, say, TH.

**Darrian13**

Do you know what kills Hive Tyrants? Las cannons, plasma guns, assault cannons and even sometimes sniper rifles kill Hive Tyrants. Marine Heroes do not kill Hive Tyrants.

Darrian

**Terminizzle**

tegeus-Cromis wrote:

You do realise you can't instakill the Tyrant, right, or any other 'nid in synapse range?

Didn't realize this. Obviously wouldn't be using Librarian with FW to try to kill him or talk about how crucial that 1 wound is, heh.

Back to the drawing board, then.

**Stelek**

I give him a 5+ invulnerable and the mantle.

He lives much longer that way.

VOT lets you re-roll everything but psychic tests so I'd rather be able to take power fist hits and live.

**Ratbarf**

Doesn't a force weapon kill the Tyrants and such outright anyway seeing as it is not technically classified as instant death? He has to pass a psychic test first doesn't he?

**Stelek**

Yes a force weapon would, if you roll the 6 to wound in the first place.

**Darrian13**

I have seen more librarians die to Demon Princes, Greater Demons and TMC's. Force weapons are incredibly overrated, I would much rather equip my librarians with lightning claws, given the choice. The best way to keep them alive is to put them in terminator armor, surround them with a termie command squad and hope nothing too scary gets into H2H with you.

Darrian

**Brother Erekose**

Darrian13 wrote:I have seen more librarians die to Demon Princes, Greater Demons and TMC's. Force weapons are incredibly overrated,
Darrian

I agree. I have used Terminator Librarians since I started playing 40k 3 years ago and can only recall it working once.

Not having VOT to help get that wound on a '6' to *then* use the Force Wep's ability is the flaw. If use of the force wep was *not* a power then VOT could be used. Snuffing Farseers or any other T4 or less IC is good for libbies and their force toys, but monstrous creatures are best left to LC and PCs.

Terminizzle wrote:...he could get his Force Weapon in close combat with a Tyrant turn 1 with 6 + D3 attacks and re-rolls.

Actually, no, check the RB's page 46 Force Wep listing. It is pretty clear. Might of Heroes can't be used in the same turn. I found that out one time. Much suckage.

Terminizzle wrote:
Thinking about this lead me to my next question- is there any way a Character, like a Codicier, can be joined by a Command Squad equipped with Jump Packs?

Nope, only the Cmd. Squad's sergeant has armoury access to buy a Jumper.

When you go through the Cmd. Squad listing carfeully, you'll see that, yes, the sgt. has access to the armoury.

However, some players feel that since the "Specialists" the Apothecary, Flag-boy and Co. Champ have upgrades, and then the words, "In addition if the sergeant has T. Honors, then all other SMs in the squad may be given T. Honors" that all of that means the *rest* of the squad can buy extra toys. Not so.

If all of them were meant to buy extra toys, it would say so. The idea has occured to many others, myself included.

-BE

...and yes Darrian, I'm Casey. *That* Erekose.

**Darrian13**

Hey Casey,
Welcome to Dakka! I hope you find it as enlightening and entertaining as I do.

Darrian

**Brother Erekose**

Darrian13 wrote:Hey Casey,
Welcome to Dakka! I hope you find it as enlightening and entertaining as I do.

Darrian

I do find it entertaining. Your Nidzilla list lost. To Marines yet!

Enlightening...using that SM list that beat your bugz.

-Casey

**Stelek**

I use a JP Librarian not to force weapon people, but to run Veil of Time into squads of normal troops.

He usually clears his kill zone, can take the PF hits, and repeat as needed.

Without Veil, I'd never run a Lib in a Smurf list.

**tegeus-Cromis**

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the FAQ ruling that protects nids in synapse from Wraithcannons etc. also protect them against force weapons? I'm guessing the wording for Force Weapons is such that it's arguable that they don't inflict "Instant Death" as such. In that case, my bad.

Still, as Stelek points out, having to roll a 6 is not great.

**Stelek**

No, force weapons will 'instant kill' Abaddon, Mantle wearers, Phoenix Lords, Demon Princes, and Nid Synapse creatures.

It's a psychic attack not a power fist, see.

Yes, it all makes sense now.

**wuestenfux**

Terminizzle wrote:
wuestenfux wrote:Darrian's list is at least 2000 pts. Its a viable army, but Nids at this level can be really large.

It's definitely solid, but if you built that list and ended up playing CSM 3 rounds in a row, you'd probably have a pretty hard time. Fortunately for me I don't play in tournaments, but do play against Chaos, 'Nids, Eldar, DE and Tau without knowing ahead of time which ones will show up. Here's what I've been working on:

Traits: See, but don’t be seen; Flesh over steel

HQ: Epistolary with Force Weapon, Terminator Honors, Bolt Pistol, Familiar, Jump Pack, Iron Halo, Frags, Veil of Time, Might of Heroes- 272
Elites: 5 Terminators; 2 Assault Cannons- 240
Troops: 6 Scouts, Veteran with Power Fist and Teleport Homer- 101
Troops: 6 Tactical Marines; 1 Las, 1 Plas, Veteran with Teleport Homer, Infiltrate- 153
Troops: 6 Tactical Marines; 1 Las, 1 Plas, Infiltrate- 133
(2) Troops: 6 Tactical Marines; 1 Las, 1 Plas- 115 x 2 = 230
(2) Heavy Support: 8 Devastators; 4 Heavy Bolters, Infiltrate- 204 x 2 = 408
1,537

I know the Epistolary is a massive points sink and I'm fairly sure the 37 points I cut will come from him, but I'm into using the figs I like, so he stays. Probably Veil of Time will go once I work out some math. Infiltrate on the 2 Tac's and Devs may seem odd, but on the table I'm used to it's definitely worthwhile.

I think the list is relatively strong vs. 'Nids and maybe not enough anti-tank vs. Tau, but other than that I'm not too worried about the other armies I face regularly.

This list is too static. Against Nids, you need firepower, mobility, and numbers, in this order.

**Darrian13**

I am not sure about mobility being so important. Marines can simply castle up, lay down a hail of fire and force the Nid player to march into the fire. The list I lost to was firing off 54(!) S:5 shots a round that was wiping out all of my swarm while the 6 las cannons were bloodying my TMC's. When I got into effective range with the TMC's the 6 plasma guns, 24 bolters and 8 assault cannons would really put the hurt on my TMC's. This, of course is not taking into account, his losses, but they were not that great due to me only firing 12 shots a round outside of range 24.

Darrian

**wuestenfux**

Darrian, the statistics is impressive.
However, you might have only one shooting round before the smaller, faster bugs reach your front ranks.
Moreover, Lictors may silence some of your guns too.