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Now that I have the new Ork Codex in my grubby little hands, I am wondernig if a SAFH Ork army is possible. I see two ways to try and build it though all have a some of the same units in it: 45 Lootas, as many Deffkoptas and/or Buggies as can be fielded, troops being shoota boyz or Deffdreads (with the Big Mek HQs). The difference would be:

1) 9 cannons with extra grots, ammo runts, and Runtherder
Pros- Cheap heavies to allow more fast attack and/or troop units
Cons- Large number of static elements makings objective grabbing and facing highly mobile forces difficult

2) 9 Killa Kanz with either Rokkits or Megablasters
Pros- More durable, more mobile
Cons- More expensive heavies meaning less fast attack and troops

What do people think? Are either viable for an RTT or GT? Is their a better ways to do SAFH Orks?

Thanks for the advice.

The Wraith

My Orks will have 9 Kannons. Don't know why you'd care about a runtherder.

Killa Kanz aren't actually more durable.

Kannons vs direct fire have a 1-4 invulnerable save. A 3 point grot dies. Woo fire the lascannon again.

Running lootas as elites and kannons as heavies, and rokkit toting deffkoptas/warbuggies; rokkit/shoota boyz mobs, and meks with KFF's make for a very shooty army.

I agree with Stelek
Also those 30 man shoota mobs can be a pain.

That said I wouldn't throw out any babies with the bath water. I'de still take PK nobs with the boys and eaven take a nice counter assault unit. I'm not talking mega armored nobs or anything mabey some stormboys could do the trick.

I think you might want lobbas rather than cannons if you're going to engage in a shooting match. That way your opponent can't (a) step back out of range, and (b) hide behind cover and shell you with his own indirect fire weapons without retaliation.

Lobbas are for shelling troops. They aren't so great at taking down tanks. Since orks don't get railguns they need every str8 weapon they can manage.
No one takes indirect fire these days aside from guard. even then it's kinda iffy. Either way if your in a building, ruins or forest Indirect fore doesn't negate the cove save.

Yeah, lobbas are....amusing, but not actually good.

For cheap, Kannons can't be beat.

Big Mek KFF

Big Mek KFF

Lootas (15)

Lootas (15)

Lootas (15)

shoota boyz (30) 3x rokkits, nob w/ klaw

shoota boyz (30) 3x rokkits, nob w/ klaw

shoota boyz (30) 3x rokkits, nob w/ klaw

Kannons (3) w/ 3 runs & 6 extra grot wounds

Kannons (3) w/ 3 runs & 6 extra grot wounds

Kannons (3) w/ 3 runs & 6 extra grot wounds

this would leave a few points shy of 1850 (do the math)

I like the idea of being able to stand out in the open with this mess and just pound on someone.

but for objective games there would be much foot slogging with the boyz mobs to cover any ground. and I think we'd want 1 mob of slugga boyz or stormboyz to counter assault with.

NaZ

Take kommandos instead of the third lootas squad. Kommandos (with snikrot) are a great insurance policy against an enemy shootie army imho.

My problem with mr snikrot is his lack f a PF. I might be wrong but he doesn't have a PW. He can ie up a uni but probably won' kill it.

The orks with burnas and such are there to do the killin.

Kommandos (with snikrot) are a great insurance policy against an enemy shootie army

Unless the enemy army has a counter charge unit like AM ready and waiting. Then all he's doing is exchanging his squad's ~250 points with a 85p Whirlwind or a 160p Devastator squad. I guess what the Ork player should do is come on the table in a long conga line in order to tie a few enemy units into close combat. They won't kill anything then but they might prevent a couple units from shooting for a turn. All in all, although Snikrot has his uses he's so expensive and still lacks a klaw that I wouldn't call him an insurance policy. If anything, he's a liability against every single mechanised army out there.

The orks with burnas and such are there to do the killin.

Those two burna guys altogether kill 1.5 Space Marine on the charge, and 0.67 if not charging.

He's a mind game tool. If you can't throw your enemy off his game, great for them. If you can, then so much the better. I think that's his use.

Space Wolf Scouts don't suck, and neither does he. Totally there as a guaranteed gimmick into the other guys army.

Thank you for all the ideas. While I like Snikrot, he does take away for the main shooting element of the Lootas which I am worried about doing.

I like the armies posted by NaZ, though it looks to have troubles in an objective based game since it is so slow. Would reducing the unit sizes or removing one unit all together to add some Deffkoptas or Buggies be better for that fast fire power and objective taking?

The list I am thinking about is like this:

Big Mek w/ KFF

Big Mek w/ KFF

15 Lootas

15 Lootas

15 Lootas

20 Shoota Boyz 2 rokkits, Nob w/ PK

20 Shoota Boyz 2 rokkits, Nob w/ PK

3 Kannons w/ Runtherder, 3 ammo ruts, 3 extra grots

3 Kannons w/ Runtherder, 3 ammo ruts, 3 extra grots

3 Kannons w/ Runtherder, 3 ammo ruts, 3 extra grots

2 Deffkoptas w/ rokkits

2 Deffkoptas w/ rokkits

3 Warbuggies w/ rokkits

This leaves 6 points shy of 1750. I like the Runtherder because him should allow the kannons to stick around a turn or so longer or force my opponent to wipeout the unit instead of letting the cannon teams run for the hills after their first moral test.

Now, how would this fair in a GT? Thanks again.

The Wraith

I am not impressed with kannon. Sure its 20pts for a gun team, count as 26pts when you add the extra grots. 26pts is not that good an investment for a missile launcher. Especially with T2 crew that run away all to easily.
There is no Mob Rule.

Kans with rokkits are double the price but well worth it for all else they can do.

Which is what, exactly? Die? Block LOS for your other units when blown up? I'm not sure how 20 points is 'bad' for a missile launcher, when 50 is what a killa kan costs you for the same thing.

By the way, I don't recommend running anything less than 3 guns w/6 extra grots and 3 ammo grots. A bit expensive, but spending 30 extra points for zzap guns might be worth it. When you get the S9 or S10 shot, being able to re-roll the to-hit will probably make people unhappy.

Hard to say. I'm pretty sure if there are heavy bolter squads around, firing them at grots manning guns isn't going to be their priority. Not if you have any Orks, at any rate.

I'm not sure I see the merits of the KFF relative to cost, especially for a shooty Ork army, and certainly relative to taking two of them.

The cost is 85 points per Mek with KFF.

Consider the utility in protecting boyz. These guys are 6 points each, and you can be pretty sure that you're going to be pulling the 6 point models, not the Nob, special weapons, etc. By the time you're down to those models, the mob is probably running away anyhow.

So, 85 points spent to protect 6 point models. In order to get the investment back, you need to succeed in making 15 5+ saves thanks to that KFF. That's a ton of saves. Since this is a 5+ save, you can assume that for every 15 you make, you've failed another 30, for a total of 45 wounds in need of saving. It'd take 135 BS4 Bolter shots to do that sort of wounding, or about 101 BS4 Heavy Bolter shots.

Are you really going to eat that much shooting and win? Are you really going to eat twice that much shooting, as you'd have to to justify a second KFF? Wouldn't it work better to have another 30 boyz out there, killing the things trying to shoot you that many times?

The argument could be made that the shooty Orks would be the only ones to need the KFF, but I'm not sure I see it. Kannons, Lootas, even Shoota boyz, all should be able to find at least 5+ cover to work from, making the KFF irrelevant. The Shoota boys would be the only exception, they might have to risk open ground to get into range, and at that point, why not bring 30 more, rather than a pair of KFFs?

The only place I can see a KFF Mek getting his points back is in defending higher cost vehicles, and even then, turning a Pen into a Glance isn't a huge improvement. It turns near certain death into inconvenience.

Indeed. Very good analysis.

Against very powerful shooty armies, yes I think you will eat that kind of damage.

I can put out a hell of a lot of shots--and I'm thinking not what's going to happen each turn, but what will happen over time. I want my Orks to remain viable both as they walk across the battlefield, and as they sit there at close range.
Where Orks with Shootas don't gain or lose much at 18", alot of other armies can put out alot of fire at 18" (move + shoot) and that's what worries me since that's how *I* beat Orks. Shoot a squad till it's got 20 guys left, then rapid fire them so 10 are left....and it's not got much going for it then. If you could make the squad even just 15 guys, it's still very dangerous.

That's where I think you get your points back....not strictly point for point, but in useful units not shredded on the battlefield.

KFF's make sense because of the fact that lootas and such are so darn fragile. and you cannot do anything else to shore up that 6+ save. being able to stand out IN THE OPEN and take a cover save is huge methinks. 2 KFF's properly placed will cover the entire army and force the enemy to waste extra shots to bring a single squad down.

but thats probably why its only 6". i doubt you could cover all the boyz, lootas, and kannons without clogging the deployment zone to death.

you could always take a pair of warpheads and slog the 90 boyz forwards while throwing dozens of dice at whatever comes into LOS.

NaZ

gdurant wrote:My problem with mr snikrot is his lack f a PF. I might be wrong but he doesn't have a PW. He can ie up a uni but probably won' kill it.

I had the same initial reaction. But the thing is, he's S6 on the charge and has one more attack than a PK Nob, as well as being WS5 and getting a reroll to hit. Against MEQ on the charge he's killing 1.48 on average, compared to a PK nob's 2.08. His numbers just go up against a higher armor save, while the nob stays the same. Likewise 6 S6 attacks on the rear of a Russ should do the trick almost as well as a klaw.

He is going to have big troubles against MCs and other high Toughness low save nasties. And the major weakness is that he's running with relatively expensive Kommandos who still have a 6+ save, so they'll die pretty easily. But again, that's where the "come in anywhere" ability is so handy. You'll mostly be engaging on your own terms.

Against very powerful shooty armies, yes I think you will eat that kind of damage.

Right, I think you will as well, but I'm also saying that you need to eat that much to make the cost worth it, and when you think about Orks trying to eat that much shooting, I just don't see it working out. At some point, they have to get into CC and do what they're best at. Shooty just isn't it.

That's where I think you get your points back....not strictly point for point, but in useful units not shredded on the battlefield.

I dunno, the choice is 2 KFFs, or another 30 Shootas. 30 Shootas aren't particularly hard to shoot down, but I think they'll end up soaking a lot more shots for you, and doing a lot more to protect their mates than a measley 5+ save will ever do.

KFF's make sense because of the fact that lootas and such are so darn fragile

I can't see the KFF being needed to cover Lootas. They've got 48" range, which means they have very few limitations in placement. Virtually any piece of cover will be a suitable place to plop them down. All you need is to put the majority of them in cover to get the save. At worst, it'll be 5+. It might be better than that. Why would you need a KFF for them?

When you have 180 shootas, where do I get more?

If you know how, please tell me!

Anyway I don't need more boyz, I plan on running a load of 'em. I want them to stick around, especially when I'm being outflanked by mobile armies and half the boyz are busy taking quarters and fighting amongst themselves...

So with that in mind, that's why I want a KFF...I think I have enough AT power that I'd rather protect what I've got than bring other stuff.

Oh I'd want KFF protecting Lootas so I can literally place them as far forward as possible and make sure I cut as many 'shadows' out of terrain as possible.

When you have 180 shootas, where do I get more?

Ok, I guess I shouldn't think in 1500 points. But, even at 1850, I didn't anticipate 180 boyz being such an easy buy.

30 Boyz, 3 Big Shootas, Nob, Klaw, Pole? 220 points. Six of them is 1320. With two KFFs, you're at 1490. Only 360 points worth of Lootas, etc. etc.?

I guess I pictured the list having a bunch of Lootas, Kannons, some Stormboyz for counter-assault, etc. etc. With even a small supply of those, you're already into a points range where you have to cut Shoota Boyz to make room for KFFs.

Or are you building for 2500 points? Certainly when the points get high enough, and you've got them to spare, KFFs could be used more.

I don't run 'standard' lists. So my Orks don't quite look like that. I think I posted a list, but to run it down again quickly it looks like this:

2 Big Meks. Right now anyway. I'm refining my tactics, I think I can make do with 1. Might even try my luck with SAG's, I just don't believe in them right now. Trying for a math-pure list first, then I'll worry about the rest.

1 Kommandoz, maybe 1 or 2 Lootas.

6 Ork Boyz squads. 2 with PK's/Shootas, 2 with 3xRokkits/Shootas, 2 with Shootas.

6 Warbuggies w/TL Rokkits.

9 Kannons.

I build for 1850-2000 points usually.

6 Ork Boyz squads. 2 with PK's/Shootas, 2 with 3xRokkits/Shootas, 2 with Shootas.

My read is that maxed out weapon options, no matter which is chose, is a no brainer for Boyz.

Certainly 5 point Big Shootas seem an obvious choice. Why skip out on them? They'll always be useful against whatever the Shootas are going at, and even with your Waaagh turn, they'll have to get at least a couple turns shooting.

Sometimes, I run armies that appear to be contrary to popular wisdom. They still do well, so why stop now?

I have different tactical uses and desires for my squads, so making them all identical when the needs are different doesn't sit well with my inner child.

Costs quite a bit in points to run them all the same anyway.

Phryxis, I believe there is more value to the KFF than just in the number of orks it will be required to save before it makes it's points back.

1) All the KFF needs to do is reduce three wounds done to the gretchin in one cannon group to 2 thus not requiring a moral test that they could easily fail and have them run off the table. Of course there would be no way to know if the moral test would have failed, but much of this game is reducing the chances of bad rolls causing major swings in the game. The reduction of the 88 point swing has value. Same for the 20 model boyz mob that takes 10-11 deaths in a turn. Saving just 1-2 boyz stops a moral test and keeps them at or above 50% saving half the points of the mob or full if the moral test goes horribly bad.

2) I doubt I will have enough cover for six units in my depolyment zone. Also, for the cover I do have, a good opponent will stay away from that cover's firing lanes until they are ready. The KFF gives me much more flexibility on placement of my units and that is worth something as well.

Thanks,

The Wraith

I've mentioned this before in other discussions, but taking more than 2x Lootas is asking for some trouble.

In most terrain setups, you'll be lucky to get more than 2 fire lanes to set them up to cover, let alone some good terrain to set them up in. Without cover, they're just asking to get blown off the table by whatever long range shooting the enemy has got.

I feel 3 squads is a waste to be perfectly honest, 2 should be sufficient to deal with what you need them to.

How can someone consider making a SAFH Ork army and not include at least one (let alone two) Meks with SAGs?

Its a fantastic (if unreliable) heavy infantry killer that can be used in a pinch to go after vehicles too. Its range is unbelievable for an Ork weapon and the fact that its carried by an IC means as long as you've got some other Ork units around its pretty easy to keep safe and sound.


I understand if you need a KFF for protection, but I would most certainly make my second mek have a SAG instead of a KFF.

I guess it depends on how many shootas you want to run?

If you're going to run 80 - 90, in 3 to 4 Squads, you really only need one KFF to protect them all, but you're going to have your horde centralized in one spot of the table. This isn't necessarily a bad thing (concentration is generally good for that kind of horde), but it can make things hard in objective based missions where they're your primary scoring units.

If you're going to run over 3 or 4 units, you start to want the second KFF Mek, if not, then Yak is right and the second Mek should have a SAG if you're going pure SAFH and don't want a combat IC in the Biker Boss.

SAG + Doubles (and chances for such) = bad.

Two SAGs...something bad is gonna happen. lol