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Ok, not that old but my GW involment started at White Dwarf #143, thats 16 bloody years ago! That makes me feel old and cranky particually when I see the current lack luster state of the Guard miniture range. I'm sorry the plastic Cadians and Catachans are awful to be polite at best, over sized, over novel and too 21st century and the classic range (even Steel Legion) is getting so hard to get.

But I love Guard, and all things associated.

So, after a absense from the game, (not so much a absense, I never stoped reading & counting points but rather playing), I have decided to create a guard army. Due only to my love of the new DKoK minitures by Forge World and my desire to obtain some of the wondeful preacher models by GW before they vanish into the mists of time.

This army is all Death Korps, the only exception is a limited number of preacher models inleu of Guardsmen. This is a expensive undertaking, I want a fun but competive army, its no fun to die all the time and I'm posting this for suggestions and feed back. Please don't give me your own Guard list, I don't want uber death, just some tweaks. Some of my choices are not tactical but miniture based. I know a CC HQ is pointless at best and over priced, but I love the newest Commisar Model and a unit with a Commisar not designed for CC is pointless.

So hear goes...............

HQ
Command Squad: 1 Flamer, 1 Standard, 1 Medic, Senior Officer with Power Fist, Carapace Armour,
Refractor Field, Medallion Crimson 138
Commissar: Power Sword, Carapace Armour 60

Mortar Team: 3 Mortar 80
Mortar Team: 3 Mortar 80
Lascannon Team: 3 Lascannon 110 468

Elites
Heavy Mortar: 3 Crew 45

Thudd Gun: 3 Crew 70

Veterans (8): 5 Shotgun, 2 Meltagun, 1 Flamer, Vet.Serg with Power Sword 100 215

Troops
Grenadiers (8): 6 Hotshot Lasgun’s, 2 Plasmagun’s 100

Command Squad: Junior Officer with Iron Disciple, 1 Lascannon 65
Squad 1: 1 Autocannon, 1 Plasmagun 85
Squad 2: 1 Heavy Bolter, 1 Plasmagun 80
Squad 3: 1 Heavy Bolter, 1 Plasmagun 80
Squad 4: 1 Twin Heavy Stubber, 1 Grenade Launcher 76

Armoured Fist: 1 Autocannon, 1 Flamer 81
Chimera: 1 Autocannon, 1 Heavy Flamer, Auto Launchers, Extra Armour 98 665

Fast attack
Rough Riders (6): 4 Hunting Lance, 1 Flamer, Vet.Serg with Power Sword 77

Hellhound: 1 Inferno Cannon, 1 Heavy Bolter, Auto Launchers, Extra Armour 123 200

Heavy Support
Leman Russ: 1 Battle Cannon, 1 Lascannon, Auto Launchers, Extra Armour 160

LR Exterminator: 1 Twin Autocannon’s, 3 Heavy Bolters, Extra Armour 140 300

..........Total 1848..........

So.........

I think I have good infanty shootyness, I feel I may be light on Anit Tank, I think I have good mobility and respose (Rough Riders, Armourd Fist, Hell Hound, infiltrating Vets + overpriced HQ), and I think I have a decent model count for the points availbe (107 guard, 3 tank, 1 transport, 2 light artilery pieces).

Feed Back is apreciated.

Ok here goes:

I love mortars in IG lists. That's 1 less useful weapon my opponent can shoot me with.

LR with Lascannon and BS3, is a bad combo.

Infantry units with 10 wounds, lascannon, and sharpshooters, is a good combo.

Any IG infantry with plasmaguns and BS3, are bad.

IG Vets with plasmaguns and BS4, are good.

Your grenadiers aren't mobile, so they won't do much with PG.

No idea what a 'twin' heavy stubber is, but it isn't legal.

Exterminators are no good, you don't scare marines.

Drop all that EA. On the LR you will probably not do anything with them anyway, and on the hounds they'll probably be dead, immobile and out of range, or gunless.

Thudd gun? Are you using FW rules or something?

RR with flamers...so you can't assault when they take casaulties from your charge range? The power weapon is no good here either.

Heavy flamer on chimera....really? Won't do much. Try a HB.

Hope that helps.

Thanks for a start but..........

I love mortars in IG lists. That's 1 less useful weapon my opponent can shoot me with.

LR with Lascannon and BS3, is a bad combo.

1st- Nice Model (big part of army selection) 2nd- My tanks hunt, seperate to which, if it lose' the battle cannon, a AV14 12 10 with only a Heavy Bolt is fairly pointless, lets do somthing aggressive with it.

Infantry units with 10 wounds, lascannon, and sharpshooters, is a good combo.

Yes, but 1st- Lascannon squads shoot tanks, I want bulk infanty firepower (swarm armies are getting popular, particually with the Ork release) 2nd- that adds a minium of 140pts, that means dropping 1 Tank or 2 Guard units, I want volume, I'm tired of SM out numbering the Guard. These are GOOD options but change my army massively, in addition with the $$$ value of this army I want somthing that lastes the next Edition.... (doctrines are going....)

Any IG infantry with plasmaguns and BS3, are bad.

Yep! But Melta guns are to short ranged, Grenade Launchers are only 2pts cheaper and lack the punch, and flamers-see Melta Guns. I am also limited by Special weapon config by the purchase I make, I hate converting resin

IG Vets with plasmaguns and BS4, are good.

Yep! But I'm no cookie cutter and this weapon outfit is surprisingly effective, Try It! Seriously Plasma and BS 4 says "shoot me", not good on Sv5. These guys can be nasty, people don't expect (and then ignore) this kit out, good AV punch with good anti infitry.

Your grenadiers aren't mobile, so they won't do much with PG.

I agree, but I was intending on using then as a Sv 4 shield for the bulk of my infantry. Plus Melta Guns and Flamers need to move, if my oppent wants VP's look to the soft squishy bit in the middle (the humble Guard), they can bring the targets to my guns....

No idea what a 'twin' heavy stubber is, but it isn't legal.

Seige Of Vrakis FW Vol 5, beautiful model, very primative and costed at 8pts, I will say counts as Heavy Bolter and add 2pts if oponent complains. If they did this however I probly woundn't play them, this aint no tornement.

Exterminators are no good, you don't scare marines.

Yes, but Ork, Nid, Guard, SoB are other armies that exist, AND once again not cookie cutter, not tournement, fun beauiful model (torm between this and a DKoK Basilisk)

Drop all that EA. On the LR you will probably not do anything with them anyway, and on the hounds they'll probably be dead, immobile and out of range, or gunless.

Mobile is good on tanks, all rumours accout 5th Ed is going this way too, I don't want pill boxs. I can conced to your argument for the Russ' but why take a Hound without it? Finaly Guard has more than one tank, Hounds are effective when used correctly.

Thudd gun? Are you using FW rules or something?

Yes, Note the Heavy Mortar & Exterminator Russ, there are four Items with FW rules. AGAIN not cookie cutter, not tournement, fun beauiful models BUT playable.

RR with flamers...so you can't assault when they take casaulties from your charge range? The power weapon is no good here either.

Hordes exist, BS 3 exist, WS 3 Exist, one flamer aint going to wipe a squad chargable by a unit with fleet. Why is a power sword no good? 2pts more than a HL, and ideal at targing the only army you feel to ssems exist (SM).

Heavy flamer on chimera....really? Won't do much. Try a HB.

Yes, this is DUMB (I mean it, and accept it), but I want to use the DKoK at ease unit for this squad. The idea of a mobile assult unit aimed at light infanty and small to medium vehicles and objective taking is complemented (in mine and the High Commands mind) as effective weapons layout of Autocannons and Flamers. I know its bunk but its fluff.


Sorry to be rude, but no help...

Add massive points on with Doctrines, Drop Tanks (without a suggesting an alernative), re-equip 7 units, Drop one, this aint advise, or 'tweaks', this is a new army.

I will talk slowly.

Fun, Beutiful Models, Not Uber Death, Variety and capable of playing ANY army not just SM and usable in all formats

I may not have been clear on the above. I want a funtional classic guard, I want numbers, I want Tanks not Pill Boxes, I want to see a beautiful theamed army displayed before me. I wnat my oppent to also, but I don't want nast ass whupping (form Me or them). This is attainable, so is fun and enjoyment in this hoby beyond Spikey Death Choise army lists, this is WHY we now have combat squads. For right or wrong the developers relised we couldn't have fun without grosley restrictive rull sets.

Please don't be offend but understand, there is more than one way to play this game and yours is obviosly soley competive.

Well, I didn't know you wanted a fun pretty army.

I don't know what 'functional classic' guard means.

In the old days, it meant an army that didn't do anything but stand there and shoot until it was assaulted and swept away.

You might have your idea of 'functional classic' down, and it might end up looking fun and pretty--but unless you play in that kind of environment you'll end up in this spot:

No fun and dying all the time.

Oh and marines aren't every army, only 80% or something...if you play like they don't exist, fine by me, back to 'no fun and dying all the time'.

I want you to have fun playing. I don't think you will with that army.

There's nothing wrong with your choice of models, is there any reason you can't use a FW model and say 'this is actually this kind of unit'? Thudd gun, or missile launcher team?

Just some food for thought.

I have more than just 'compete' in my mind. I have more fun losing than winning. *shrug*

Could someone inteligent please respond, who understands I want fun but not certain death?

Mods i'm sorry, I understand that this is akin to staring a flame war, but I need to respond.

Read the post Stelek, what I wanted was clear. Not a critque by a serial nonsese poster, I realy don't know why I am about to respond to this.

Well, I didn't know you wanted a fun pretty army.

read before you post, I repeat:

I want a fun but competive army, its no fun to die all the time

I don't know what 'functional classic' guard means.

One with a solid fire base of guardsmen and lasguns, some intresting extras and a smattering of tanks.

In the old days, it meant an army that didn't do anything but stand there and shoot until it was assaulted and swept away.

Not in 2nd ed, and not since Ordance Rules and Rapid fire rules changed

You might have your idea of 'functional classic' down, and it might end up looking fun and pretty--but unless you play in that kind of environment you'll end up in this spot:

No fun and dying all the time.

Bad players create optimal lists to justife there poor tactical capacity. Cookie cutters go down to good players, even las-plas Marine and flying Circus Elder.

Oh and marines aren't every army, only 80% or something...if you play like they don't exist, fine by me, back to 'no fun and dying all the time'.

They where once, however with stronger Codexs being released they aint no more, Nid, Elder, Chaos, Orks are all strong books with growing player bases.

I want you to have fun playing. I don't think you will with that army.

Don't 'think for me' you seem to have little capacity.

There's nothing wrong with your choice of models, is there any reason you can't use a FW model and say 'this is actually this kind of unit'? Thudd gun, or missile launcher team?

Yes, the same reason I don't use nids as Orks, or Hero clix as Marines. If you fail to grasp this it is obvios they type of player you are (i'm guessing tin boy) that has no regard for the hobby beyond winning.

This game has a story, a art, and most importantly minitures & painting. Thats why there are painting comps, thats why FW exists, thats why fan fiction exists. Without this you may as well play World of War Craft or Star Craft. Play for the game and the socialisation and hobby it brings, not to poinless crush all in games regardless of contex. Winning is FUN, creating something special though and winning 'only' 50% of the time is just as great.

Serenity wrote:Could someone inteligent please respond, who understands I want fun but not certain death?

Mods i'm sorry, I understand that this is akin to staring a flame war, but I need to respond.

Please read the Forum Rules. Personal attacks, such as this, are not tolerated. There are civil ways to express yourself, and while you may be frustrated, you should not be rude.

Also, what you're asking for is VERY nebulous. One person's idea of fun is different than another, and it seems to me that Stelek has made a good-faith effort to give you some constructive criticism. You didn't like it, and turned on him. In the future, please be polite, especially to people who are trying to help you.

Thank you.

I apologise for offending a Mod on a great forum, and I realise my response was rude and aggressive.

My annoyance was uncalled for, for but I do want Inteligent feedback from a very creative community, which is Dakka, a home of wonderful model blogs and charactful regular posters with a keen insight into all aspects of the hobby and game. A site that is (impossibly still) growing in my respect and admaration since Yakface Face & Lego Burners great take over. I have ghosted for a long time here, and want inteligent feed back on a major finacial creation. Not nonsese from a serial poster whom dosn't read threads before recreating them in his own image and not understanting what another community member wants to achieve.

If this thread is out of line please Lock or Delete.

I really like it. The only advice I can give is to drop the GL in squad 4, and upgrade it to something with more oompgh.

Sekai, GL's aint that bad, but its not my first choise either. In a smaller body count army I personaly would avoid plasma's due to obvious shooter kill risks. But I want infanty killing from my guard bodys, a good two turns (hopfully ), before CC and certain death...

I realy love the DKoK line and I will have one model availibe to me with one GL, the GL small blast combined with the twin stubber will create a good anit infantry fire base. Plus in sad, sad, sad fluff terms the idea of the most newest guardlings getting 'primative' weapons support appeals to me (ie. No Bolter or Plasma for the Newbies!), (it also justifes the inclusion of the heavy stubber, a very funky model).

Finaly I want every DKoK model to appear in this army, the Thudd gun is CRAP! (I KNOW IT!). I would take another Heavy Morta any day, but I want the model...

Fair enough, I see your point fluff wise! Otherwise I love the army and I wish I had the money to build a similar version :p