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I know they block line of sight and the definition of cover in the BGB is:

"Cover is basically anything you can hide in or behind."

Vehicles are a good example of a unit that provides cover (4+), and I think the intention for MCs is the same, but it never specifically states that if half my unit of genestealers is behind my carnifex, the genestealers get a cover save.

Also, how much cover would they give?

LiMunPai wrote:I know they block line of sight and the definition of cover in the BGB is:

"Cover is basically anything you can hide in or behind."

Vehicles are a good example of a unit that provides cover (4+), and I think the intention for MCs is the same, but it never specifically states that if half my unit of genestealers is behind my carnifex, the genestealers get a cover save.

Also, how much cover would they give?

Well, if the majority of the models in the squad are half behind the MC, then I would think it would be a cover save. However, I think more likely it would be a LOS issue, i.e. the models behind the MC can't be seen and therefore wounds have to be taken by the models that can be seen, but no cover.

I think this might be an issue if direct-fire ordnance (think Leman Russ) shattered off of some stealers in LOS and splatted some behind the Carnifexes or whatnot, or if an indirect ordnance template landed in front of said MC and hit some stealers behind it. Outside of that, the LOS rules are usually going to prevent this from being an issue, as Grignard pointed out (I don't think there are many vehicles that could see over a Carnifex with their guns using true LOS?).

As it is not really addressed by the rules as far as I know, I would probably give a Tyranid player a cover save (5+?) if they asked for it during a friendly game.

Note that I made the call on this one assuming magic cylinder lite. If you're using model's eye view I think this would be more of an issue.

I would not let any one take a cover save from a MC being in front of a unit of infantry. Cover saves are generated by a unit being obscured by some object. When a save is taken that usually means that the object that was blocking the unit has been hit. In this case since the monstrous creature is still alive would that shot hit him? I think not.

Thanks for the replies.

My play group has been playing it as 5+ cover, but I'm going to be playing in a local tournament with pretty much that same group soon. I just wanted to make sure I wasn't cheating or that I can come with a little more evidence to support the way that I play it if I get called on it.

Negativemoney wrote:I would not let any one take a cover save from a MC being in front of a unit of infantry. Cover saves are generated by a unit being obscured by some object. When a save is taken that usually means that the object that was blocking the unit has been hit. In this case since the monstrous creature is still alive would that shot hit him? I think not.

Wouldn't the cover save rules kick in when a majority of the unit is eligible to benefit from them? In the case of ordnance scattering into the ranks, I don't think there is much of a question that the MC is obscuring line of sight between the hit models behind the MC and the firing model. I know that interpretation could get very abusive in favor of the Tyranids (keeping in mind that ordnance casualties can be taken from anywhere in the unit), but as long as people were being reasonable about it, it seems reasonable and consistent with the rules.

i would play it as this..

the MC blocks LOS to all models behind it. only the models that can be seen can be hit and therefore only they can die. if half a squad was in forest and half was out of forest, thats a cover save for them all. if half a squad is behind a brick wall and the other half is in front, only the ones in LOS can be hit\killed.

MC's aren't terrain, so they can't really grant a save, but they do block LOS.

also it depends on how you play. we play magic cylinder, no questions there, it makes the game go by faster and everyone out in my LGS plays that way. However you use LOS will affect how this rule is played.

I do agree with Huge_Eldar's views on this matter. Terrain grants the cover save not other models. I personally play that you don't get the 4+ from a vehicle until it becomes a wreck. It does make the game go quicker and reduces the amount of arguments that will arise when it comes to fire lines and the such.

I think you're right huge_eldar.

Now that I re-read the cover rules with that perspective, I don't think vehicles or MC's will provide cover (unless the vehicle is a wreck). I was confused about vehicles providing cover as well while they just block line.

Negativemoney wrote:When a save is taken that usually means that the object that was blocking the unit has been hit.

Not so far as the rules are concerned.

When a cover save is passed, it simply means that the unit you were aiming for is not hit. The rules don't describe any effect on the object that obscured the shot. Where the missed shot went is simply not something that the rules are concerned with. It's just a miss.

huge_eldar wrote:MC's aren't terrain, so they can't really grant a save, but they do block LOS.

Vehicles aren't terrain either, and yet they grant a cover save.

LiMunPai wrote:Now that I re-read the cover rules with that perspective, I don't think vehicles or MC's will provide cover

The summary chart on page 25 of the rulebook quite clearly lists a cover save value for vehicles, so I'm not sure how you reach that conclusion.

A cover save is granted by anything that obscures the shot. That part of the rules is clear.

Unfortunately, the summary chart doesn't give us a cover save value for MCs... which is probably either an oversight, or a deliberate ommission based on the idea that 'Monstrous Creature' covers a pretty broad selection of models, and so players should figure it out for themselves depending on the actual model in question. I'm sure there's all sorts of terrain features that players could thinnk up that aren;t covered by the table as well... that doesn't mean that they don't grant a cover save, just that players will have to figure out what it is for themselves.

insaniak wrote:
A cover save is granted by anything that obscures the shot. That part of the rules is clear.

So then how is a MC in cover when only a fraction of the back of his base is in a piece of area terrain and you have a clear line to him?

The rules in general are not complete when it comes to cover saves.

In order to qualify for a cover save the model must be a legal target. In the case of gaunts an MCs or even Stealers and MCs for that matter the only ones that can be a target are those in direct line of fire of the shooters other wise that would violate the shooting rules of only removing models that are in line of sight and within range. This can also be applied to vehicles, where vehicles will block line to any infantry behind it and thus they are no longer a target.

I don't think they give cover. They can block LOS, but they're not terrain, and unlike vehicles, there is nothing in the rulebook specifically stating that they give cover.

If the firing unit is one which requires LOS, they obviously won't be able to kill the models which are out of LOS, but I don't see a good basis on which to grant the exposed guys a save.

So then how is a MC in cover when only a fraction of the back of his base is in a piece of area terrain and you have a clear line to him?

Personally I don't think a MC gets cover if just a sliver of his base is in terrain either. The shot's supposed to pass over or through the cover for a cover save to apply.

This can also be applied to vehicles, where vehicles will block line to any infantry behind it and thus they are no longer a target.

You can shoot over or past a vehicle if the model can physically draw LOS over it. Page 20 is quite clear on that point. So if you have a squad of marines huddled behind a Rhino, and a Zoanthrope sees them over it, but they are at least partially obscured by it, he's going to be able to zorch them, but they'll be able to claim a 4+ cover save per the table.

Negativemoney wrote:So then how is a MC in cover when only a fraction of the back of his base is in a piece of area terrain and you have a clear line to him?

Why would he be in cover in that situation?

If the terrain does not obscure your LOS, it doesn't provide cover.

In order to qualify for a cover save the model must be a legal target. In the case of gaunts an MCs or even Stealers and MCs for that matter the only ones that can be a target are those in direct line of fire of the shooters other wise that would violate the shooting rules of only removing models that are in line of sight and within range.

I'm not sure what this has to do with the topic...

A model doesn't have to be completely visible to be a valid target. Otherwise nobody would ever get cover saves.

This can also be applied to vehicles, where vehicles will block line to any infantry behind it and thus they are no longer a target.

If the vehicle blocks LOS completely, then yes, the unit behind is not a valid target. If you can draw a LOS to some of the models behind the vehicle (the rules on page 20 tell us to use a model's eye view to determine whether or not you can see past a vehicle) then they are a valid target, but if they are at least partially obscured will receive a cover save.

Mannahnin wrote:and unlike vehicles, there is nothing in the rulebook specifically stating that they give cover.

Sure there is:
Monstrous creatures block LOS.
Cover is anything that you can hide in or behind.

If the MC blocks LOS, then models can hide behind it. Therefore, the MC counts as cover. If the firer's LOS to the model crosses cover, the target gets a cover save.

Of course if the LOS "crosses" the MC, it's blocked.

Does the rulebook say "anything" or "any terrain"? I'll have to go look in my book, but my understanding of the cover rules is that they are talking about terrain. And that the only thing that makes vehicles eligible to give cover is its presense on the chart of different cover saves. Which presense is most likely linked to the fact that vehicles block LOS "like terrain". However, I am shading into the realms of RAI, and I will withdraw until I am able to consult my rulebook. Which might not be until tomorrow, as I'm picking my wife up at the airport tonight.

The very first line of the "When do models count as in Cover?" section states. When a model is within area Terrain or th firer's line of sight crosses over cover so that the target model(s) are partially obscured. This to me is very clear given the common interpretation. within just means that as long as part of the the model is touching the terrain it will be granted a cover save.

This argument is based on the discussion given with the ork KFF and its wording. Both wordings in this case are the same.

Now there also is the question; What exactly does partially obscured actually mean?

Negativemoney wrote:The very first line of the "When do models count as in Cover?" section states. When a model is within area Terrain or th firer's line of sight crosses over cover so that the target model(s) are partially obscured. This to me is very clear given the common interpretation. within just means that as long as part of the the model is touching the terrain it will be granted a cover save.

This argument is based on the discussion given with the ork KFF and its wording. Both wordings in this case are the same.

Now there also is the question; What exactly does partially obscured actually mean?

It means if any portion of the target model is physically obscured by a terrain feature.

As for a model being partially in a piece of terrain I think this is something that players need to agree upon before the game as it is clear that the term "within" is understood differently by different people, so right or wrong you will need to come to an understanding before the issue arises.

I would think the rule for a vehicle in terrain and a carnifex being in terrain should be the same. If half the fexes base is in terrain, it gets the obsurement roll. If it is just a sliver, no chance.
Also, I would not consider a fex a terrain feature.
My .02

Mannahnin wrote:Does the rulebook say "anything" or "any terrain"?

In which bit?

It defines cover as 'anything that you can hide in or behind'

It allows a cover save any time LOS crosses cover.

So if another model is what you are hiding behind, then that other model counts as cover, and so provides a cover save.

This isn't a problem for regular models, because they don't block LOS, and so you can't hide behind them. But vehicles and MCs work differently.

I see absolutely no reason for MC's not to provide cover if vehicles do, since the LOS rules treat them both the same.

And that the only thing that makes vehicles eligible to give cover is its presense on the chart of different cover saves.

What makes vehicles eligible is the fact that they block LOS, and so can be hidden behind... thus making them count as cover.

dornsfist wrote:Also, I would not consider a fex a terrain feature.

Nobody's saying that a fex is a terrain feature. Just that it doesn't have to be a terrain feature in order to provide cover.
My .02

Oops... double post

Another thing.....Isnt there something in the rulebook that says that the static model represents something that is moving, and that is the reason models are assumed to take up the entire area of their base? If that is the case, wouldnt this kind of make taking cover behind it hard? I go back to this being a LOS issue, not a cover, unless you had the very odd situation of the majority of models being partially but not totally behind the MC. I think the rulebook is fairly clear, however, about MCs blocking LOS.

Grignard wrote:Another thing.....Isnt there something in the rulebook that says that the static model represents something that is moving, and that is the reason models are assumed to take up the entire area of their base?

Yes. It then goes on to give the one rule that actually uses this concept: it means that you measure to the edge of the model's base, rather than to the model itself. It is never again referenced by any other rule.

If that is the case, wouldnt this kind of make taking cover behind it hard?

Not really, no. The base is only 3mm tall.

There's a rather large difference between the 'area of the base' and the 'volume of space above the base'


The whole 'static model representing something moving' thing is used to explain the mechanics of measurement as they work in 40K. That concept then goes straight out the window for LOS, as LOS requires us to use the actual, physical position of the model at the time of the shot, with rules that, for example, tell us to trace LOS to the body of the model... something that would be impractical if you are using the empty space around the model as a part of the model... how do you determine where the model's body is within that volume of space?

By the model occupying the area of the base, then it would have to also occupy the entire volume enclosed by the area of the base up to the highest point on the model, because saying the model takes up the area of the base makes no sense. The model is a three dimensional object.

Oh god, cylinder talk here.

I think the biggest issue with this is the question of "If a MC gives a cover save, what kind of save does it give? 5+? 4+?" it's something that really, really isn't covered.

With that in mind, I (and I hope my opponent) would be willing to draw the line at "Monstrous Creatures block line of sight" and say that any gaunts/etc behind them just can't be seen in a tournament (as the poster said this was for). While being wrong, it would move the game along. With no specific mention given to them (such as Vehicles) we've got the equivalent of a unit with a weapon that has no profile, you have a name, you can surmise what it may/may not do, but you have no real context to properly play things that way.

Grignard wrote:By the model occupying the area of the base, then it would have to also occupy the entire volume enclosed by the area of the base up to the highest point on the model,

Why?

because saying the model takes up the area of the base makes no sense. The model is a three dimensional object.

Of course it is. But you don't need to know how tall the model is in order to measure to and from it. The model is considered to occupy the area of its base for measurement purposes, because it's easier to measure to and from the edge of the base than it is to measure to and from the actual model.

The model taking up the area of its base for this purpose therefore makes perfect sense... and isn't in any way relevant to LOS.