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So I figured I'd make a Chaos template up, to help newer players.

This is based solely on my own preferences and experiences.

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Here I'm going to critique Chaos units so people understand why they aren't recommended.

Special Characters:

Fabius Bile. He costs like a Demon Prince, hits like a grot.

Huron Blackheart. He costs like a Demon Prince, hits like a chaos sorceror.

Lucius the Eternal. He costs like a Demon Prince, hits like a girly marine.

Typhus. Thinks he's bad, costs almost as much as Abaddon. Spend 50 more points, get Abaddon--he's far better.

Ahriman. Chaos' version of Eldrad, but only in points cost. His abilities won't win you games.

HQ's:

Chaos Lord. Dies to power fists or regular marines beating on him--T4 with 3+ save impresses nobody, mister! Cannot be psychic. Costs almost as much as a Demon Prince.
Is as useless in CC as a standard SM character.

Chaos Sorcerer. Dies to power fists or regular marines beating on him--T4 with 3+ save impresses nobody, mister! Demon Prince isn't BS3 anymore, so hiding and casting psychic powers is all he does. Is as useless in CC as a standard SM character.

Greater Demon. Not a bad choice, but without flight....it's easily shot down/avoided. Even if dropped off using a bike unit, it's not very good.

Elites:

Chosen: If you want a minimum sized squad with a Lascannon, that's what this is good for. They're not very good on the tabletop, infiltrate or not,
because when you get down to it moving 6" is a liability.

Dreadnoughts: Go crazy at the wrong time, have 12 armor so die to most anything.

Possessed. Ok, back to 1st version of these guys where the powers are random--but to really reinforce the fact that no one likes them, you roll AFTER you deploy them to see what they do. Oops, wrong power for where they are. Fleeting is fine, but what do they do without rending or power weapon attacks? You guessed it, nothing but die to enemy shooting.

Troops:

Normal Chaos Space Marines...even with a mark, they aren't fearless. They don't get a 2nd heavy weapon option at 20 marines, so there's
literally nothing going for this unit. Regular Space Marines are better, because they know no fear.

Lesser Demons. No flavor, and not able to do much but get shot or assaulted away. Avoid at all costs.

Khorne Berserkers. Well, they were bad in the last edition. Now they don't even get a chance to fleet forward...so they are assault troops that move 6" a turn. Put them in a box, and wait for Khorne to be semi-good again next edition!

Chaos Rhinos. Problem with these is you usually don't want to be IN them, so all they are are walking walls. I'd rather have more marines....and since they look cheap but with EA actually cost about the same as the last edition, they aren't any good for a Chaos army. Rhinos do not really give mobility. They give the illusion of it. Avoid them unless you want some walls for the other guy to blow up.

Fast Attack:

Chaos Spawn. Neat model. Totally worthless in-game. When they're 20 points, maybe. And scoring units, maybe. Need fleet, not slow and purposeful! lol

Heavy Support:

Chaos Land Raider. Marines get POTM. Chaos lost theirs. Daemonic Possession grants you BS3, not exactly bad but not good either. I've played Eldar a long time. Twin-linked BS3 isn't a game-winner. So it's not bad, but isn't good either. For it's price, it costs too much--this is common among ALL Land Raiders.

Defiler: Armor 12, big cannon guarantees shots at it. Has a close combat option that requires it to not shoot! Dies quickly.

Chaos vindicator: It's not that it's bad, indeed with Daemonic Possession it's downright dangerous. In Chaos lists, however, there are no Razorbacks, Venerable Dreads, Assault Cannon armed Land Speeders, or Assault Cannon armed Terminator squads to draw heavy weapons fire away from Chaos vehicles. There are only Demon Princes. Since heavy bolters and autocannons can kill those, you take all the missile launcher and lascannon fire into your 3 heavy vehicles--and then they die.

Chaos Predator: Same as the vindicator only difference is, you can't take daemonic possession because it reduces you to BS3 without twin-linking on all your weapons (or like on
the Vindicator, it doesn't matter since you use a scatter die.) Loyalist marines get the same thing, so why run it? Are you playing 'spiky' marines, or Chaos?

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Here are the units you do want to take, and why.

Special Characters:

Abaddon: He's a monster in close combat. Only force weapons can take him down. He will kill everything else in the entire game. Units, characters, monstrous creatures. If they get near him, they'd better shoot him dead or pray you roll a 1 for his daemon weapon...else you're about to lose close combat when he's done with you.

Kharn: He doesn't suck anymore. Send him into skimmers. Send him into Land Raiders. Send him into IC's, MC's, and assault units. He kills them all equally well. Just don't help him in close combat! lol let him go off on his own and leave his escort behind when he charges.

HQs:

Demon Princes: These guys are bad. Take two. Give them wings. After that, if you want to give them a Mark, go ahead. Not Khorne please, the Chaos Psychic powers are good. Nurgles rot, lash, warptime, and bolt of change all have a place. I favor Warptime and Mark of Slaanesh, but with DP almost any combination of Marks/Psychic powers is good.

Elites:

Chaos Terminators. They aren't fearless. This is a serious drawback. They are LD10 however, so they will usually stay around. Mark of Nurgle for T5, Slaanesh for higher Init, or Tzeentch for a better invulnerable save. If you are going to bring Terminators, bring ALOT of them. See the template below for a guide on this.

Troops:

Noise Marines. They can compete against I5 characters and troops, and give you a missile launcher and a power fist--plus against things like IG, horde nids, and Orks...sonic blasters are truly killy weapons. They can also morph from 2 shots with sonic blasters to CCW/BP and assault with 3 more attacks. They aren't the strongest but have their place.

Plague Marines. FNP. Blight grenades. T5. Fearless. Bring 12+ in a squad, give them a power fist. Give them meltaguns or plasmaguns. They don't die.

Thousand Sons. S4 missile launchers, 24" range. 2 shots at 12". 4+ Invulnerable save. Move and fire. Can't have a fist, but can have bolt of change on the sorc (I highly recommend it). These guys are weak in CC, but with a little help from the Noise or Plague Marines countercharging can stop an assault cold until you can drop your support units into the enemy and drive him off.

Fast Attack:

Raptors. While they cannot be fearless, you can give them a mark. Personally I recommend Nurgle. T5 jump assault marines are no joke. Give them a couple meltaguns and a powerfist, and bring 15 of them. Like Terminators, bring ALOT if you are going to bring them at all.

Chaos Marine Bikers. Minimum sized units with 2 meltaguns are very useful. I don't run bikers anymore, but you can toss mark of nurgle on 'em and make them very tough. problem is, they are horrible in CC and not very good at shooting. I can't say they are bad units, so they are here with a big ? on them.

Heavy Support:

Havocs. They aren't oblits, but they have their place. I don't favor them because I think running what are essentially Space Marine Devastators who know fear and running away to fight another day....aren't what I want in my Chaos army. Give them the mark of Nurgle or Tzeentch, and they'll be more survivable.

Obliterators. Energy weapon, please! Move and fire. 2+ save really helps. These are your anti-tank units. Lots of armies bring tanks, that's what these guys are for. I use them because they are unique in the game, and I like that.

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Now on to my template. You can do almost any kind of Chaos army with this, and have a good force. Just remember to keep your mix'n'match to a minimum. Chaos has more strength when you bring alot of 1 unit type.

The 'must have' basics:

HQs:

Demon Prince. Spend 160 points. You can get most things with these points. Always get flight, sorceror, and warptime at a minimum. If you want a mark-only power, get it. If you aren't getting nurgles rot or bolt of change, pick up mark of slaanesh for 5 points. I6 really helps.
Now get a 2nd Demon Prince, same as the first. The reason for Demon Princes is simple, they give your opponent MORE nasty toughness value units to shoot at--which means your Oblits (see below) are more survivable.

Heavy:

Obliterators. I favor 2 Obliterators per squad. They are fearless, and killing 1 still leaves me with a scoring unit so you have to kill both to get any VPs or deny me a scoring unit. They are excellent when paired with 2 Demon Princes.
Now get a 2nd unit. Also of 2 obliterators.
And a third. Yep, 2 more Oblits.

That's usually 770 points you've spent. You have a solid core.

***************************

Now, you have some choices to make.

What kind of army do you want to run, exactly? Do you want to sit back and shoot? Do you want to go forward and assault? Do you want to engage in firefights midfield?

Well, here's how you do all of those:

***************************

Sit and shoot:

Buy 2 units of EC for 100 points apiece. No upgrades. Sit these guys near your oblits, and sacrifice them as necessary to protect the oblits.
Buy a Terminator unit. Grab 10 terminators, 2 power fists and 2 reaper autocannons. That's 370 points. You can give them a Mark of Nurgle or Tzeentch if you really want, but that will cut down on your total Terminators.
Buy a 2nd Terminator unit, just like the first.
Now if you haven't gotten a mark, you've spent 940 points.
Buy a 3rd Terminator unit, and use up your points. I recommend 8 Terminators with a reaper, chain fist, and 2 combi-plasmas. 290 points. If you've bought marks, reconsider as more terminators = more terminators. lol

***************************

Assault:

Again, Buy 2 units of EC for 100 points apiece. No upgrades. Sit these guys near your oblits, and sacrifice them as necessary to protect the oblits.

Now here comes the tricky part. If you buy the mark of nurgle, you can only get two effective units of these guys. Or you can get 3 units. It really is a conundrum. I can recommend either version. One works with slightly more numbers and flexibility, the other is tough.

1: Buy 2 units of 20 Raptors, give them 2 meltaguns, powerfist/meltabombs, and icon of nurgle. Costs 515 points each.

2: Buy 3 units of 14 Raptors, give them 2 meltaguns, powerfist. Costs 340 points each.

***************************

Midfield Firefights.

Two choices here, base your army on Plague Marines or on Thousand Sons.

Emperor's Children are good *support* units, but in my experience only for Thousand Sons.

Here's how you run either version:

1: Buy 3 units of 16 Plague marines, give them 2 meltaguns (or plasmaguns), power fist/meltabombs. Keep in mind PG cost more, so you'll have to lose a PM to take those on 2 of your units. I'd always keep at least 1 unit with Meltaguns, this unit is where you'd lose the extra PM from to buy the 4 PG. Costs 403 points each.

2: Buy 3 units of 8 Thousand Sons with Bolt of Change on the Sorc. These cost 246 apiece. Then buy 2 units of 7 Noise Marines with 4 Sonic Blasters, Blastmaster, powerfist/blaster. These cost 245 points apiece. This is the army I personally run. Don't be discouraged when the Noise Marines get shot down by plasma cannons, missile launchers, leman russ rounds, and lascannons. It happens alot!

===============================================

And that's how, in my view, you can make varied Chaos lists around a stable core. Hope this helps new people.

Which would you prefer going against a DH army.

Nice summary. Your armies don't include transports (Rhinos).
The core, 2 DPs and 3x2 Obliterators, makes sense.
Personally, I don't like footslogging Marine armies, because footslogging is a slow way to die. I favor the shooty version with a minimum of Troops, possibly two Noise Marine squads, and lots of Termies with reaper autocannons and combi-plasma.

Any stelek hates the DH and hates grey knights even more. Calls them suck knights i think

Crap I did forget Chaos Rhinos didn't I. lol I'll add them.

Against Demon Hunters (aka Suck Knights, Gay Knights [no offense intended!], oh man sooo many ways to put them down lol) I'd say all of the armies have their strengths vs DH.

The Terminator one will give the DH problems, because one of the DH strengths is CC with their higher WS and S but terminators crush marines.

The Plague Marines for the same reason only they just won't die to the DH, and the DH primary shooting also won't do much to either termies or PM.

Raptors should take 1 round of fire, then be in CC. At that point it's how many guys he has vs how many you have, but with superior mobility and deployment; you should have an advantage.

I'd say TS are last for effectiveness, but at 24" it's going to be a slug fest of shooting. Hard to say who would win out, but the more Grey Knights there are the more likely Chaos is going to win because there won't be enough shooty to down you. Just keep your DP away from their masters and you shouldn't have much problem.

Gonna fix the Rhino oversight. Sorry about that.

Oh and I don't HATE the Grey Knights. I just have zero respect for them as a army.

So, using your template, make a 1750 point take-all-comers list for a GT.

Sorry it just seemed that how much you bash on the knights i just assumed you hated them but we all know what happens when you assume...

I was checking the gwevent boards, do you know if the tourneys are going to be 1750 again? Or go up/down?

I'll get a few lists up in a few minutes.

Batnob wrote:Which would you prefer going against a DH army.

Against a strictly DH force (no allies), just choose your options from Stelek's "suck" list. You'll probably still win, but it'll be a closer fight, anyway.

LOL


@Stelek:

Wow. So much wisdom!

You really put in a lot of effort for the sake of others, there. Good on ya! Props and respect to you for taking the time.

While I don't necessarilty agree with everything you had to say there, you have a lot of really good and strong advice for new players (or new CHAOS players).

I do have one addition and one comment on the list, specifically.

Where you mentioned the benefits of Thousand Sons, you forgot to mention their AP3 Bolters. That's huge. They're 2 shot marine killers at close range & 1 shot marine killers at 12 to 24" range.

Bikes: I think that, overall, they suck. They just aren't strong enough to survive too much. There are a couple exceptions....
Nurgle bikes, like you said. A T6 biker is hard to wound. Hard to wound = hard to kill.
I like Thousand Sons, too. Once in HtH, they're only marginally tougher than your average CSM, but they do such a good job of GETTING there. That's what I like.
For those who choose to allow the MoT rule for +1 to the Invul save to modify a turbo boosted save (since I know there are some out there who don't, for their own reasons), it gives the bikes a 2+ Invulnerable save on the Turbo boost. Last week, I had to roll 10 saves from ONE unit of shooting at a unit of 4 T-Sons Bikes. After rolling my saves, I had 4 bikes remaining. -- Granted, that roll was ABOVE average odds in my favor. Still, though... it happens. The only army to worry about with that is DH with psycannons.


Oh, yeah... I forgot... Raptors... They blow.
HOWEVER, when you're rocking a 14 - 20 strong unit of those things, even THEY are a force to be reckoned with. So, I can't fault your logic there. Especially with Mark of Nurgle.

Nice post. Thanks for it.

Eric

Stelek wrote:I was checking the gwevent boards, do you know if the tourneys are going to be 1750 again? Or go up/down?

I'll get a few lists up in a few minutes.

Make one good Chaos list that you would feel confident about taking to a GT.

DPx2: 320
Oblitsx6: 450

Termies:

200 for EC basic troops.

Take two terminator units at max strength.

Leaves 40 points. 1 Squad with mark of nurgle.

Assault:

200 for EC basic troops.

2 Squads of Raptors @ the 14 mark. Leaves 100 points, so I'd give these the mark of nurgle.

Firefight:

Plague Marine squads x2 @ 19 each w/meltaguns + PF.

Or,

2 TS squads @ 9 each w/Bolt of Change.
2 EC squads @ 7 each w/PF, Blastmaster, 4 SB's.

-----------

I'd never recommend going for smaller units to make up the difference, they aren't much of a threat.

Oh, sorry. Well I'd take any of those lists to a GT.

I'd probably favor the Plague Marines over the other options. Huge PM units just don't die, so even being slow you can walk to objectives and take them from most enemies.

This is what I was planning on running against my DH friend.

Bare in mind this is all I have atm...

HQ
Lord with jump pack, MoK, LC, and Meltabombs.

Elites
5 Termies with AC, 1 PF, rest with combi-plasma mounted in a Raider

Troops
2 Reg. Marine Squads @ 9 each with AC, Plasma Pistol, and PF both mounted in Rhino's

Fast Attack
10 Raptors w/AC, PF, and 2 Melta Guns

Heavy Support
2 Oblits

Now like I said thats all I have and that amounts to a 1500pt army. What do you guys think?

Oh yeah forgot to mention all my termies are champions.

Stelek wrote:
Chaos Spawn. Neat model. Totally worthless in-game. When they're 20 points, maybe. And scoring units, maybe. Need fleet, not slow and purposeful! lol

They do have fleet, and slow and purposeful! ROFL. They slowly and purposefully fleet towards their enemy!!

They are the confused.

Calm...calm...FARGH...RAGE....calm....calm.

Why do you buy NMs as troops instead of normal CSM with a special weapon?
I would agree with you, if you'd buy Blasmasters for your squads...but not that way.

You left out the Mark of Khorne and the possibility of giving your Chosen a bunch of special weapons.
What about gift of Chaos for 1k Sons to compensate the fact, that they can't have any power weapons? It's not bad at all.

In the armies builds Stelek posted having squads that can move and fire 10 S4 shots or stand and shoot 15 of the same are important for making sure that 5+ save or worse armies stay in cover as they advance, slowing them down and letting Stelek better control the advance of his terminators and Raptors. The Raptors and the Termies can then deal with anything that needs special weapons when they hit the enemy lines.

Thousand Sons still get a few PW attacks with the Sorcerer's force weapon, and buying more ranged shooting attacks works better with the army's strategy. Besides, if the Thousand Sons are mostly playing stationary, anything that can get the charge on them is going to ignore the template. Giving them a S8 AP2 weapon also gives them something to do against termies and vehicles, particularly once they run out of 3+ save targets.

Based on my own experience with Guard, I would agree with Stelek that infiltrate is not nearly a good enough way of getting 12" weapons on target when combined with a 6" walking move. Sometimes you get lucky, but most of the time you're just feeding an almost 200 pt unit to the enemy's assault vanguard without it having accomplished much. Guard can do infil/DS with vets and the like because they're cheap, but Chaos lists can't burn 200 pts. on the hope that something goes right.

Sounds good to me, except I do think Fabius is a great choice now. Enhanced Chaos Marines are fearless and you can give them marks as well. I am thinking enhanced Chaos Space Marines could now be the best troop choice in the game.

- G

NM are fearless. CSM are not. So they can't tie down anything getting near your oblits.

Last time I saw a tactical marine squad on my side of the board using a special weapon was in a drop pod army. Also the only time since the rhino rush was crushed. You want to take 'em? By all means do.

NM can rapid fire or charge as needed, without having to roll slow and purposeful.

===================

Khorne gives +1 attack, are you impressed by that. I'm pretty sure I covered that Khorne is no good, and I'd rather have more people resistant to shooting or faster in CC than an extra attack.

Chosen can have lots of weapons, and then they get shot dead because they are SLOW. SLOW is bad in 40K.

Thousand Sons have a force weapon in each squad, if you want to kill something use that. Bolt of Change is very helpful when you are low on anti-tank because of the removal of lascannons from virtually every Chaos army list. If you really want to run 200 point Chaos units just to get a lascannon, by all means do so. I think you'll find it's a horrible army, and be disappointed with it.

Alpharius Walks wrote:In the armies builds Stelek posted having squads that can move and fire 10 S4 shots or stand and shoot 15 of the same are important for making sure that 5+ save or worse armies stay in cover as they advance, slowing them down and letting Stelek better control the advance of his terminators and Raptors. The Raptors and the Termies can then deal with anything that needs special weapons when they hit the enemy lines.

But his lists were for 5 man EC with no upgrades = 100pts. That means he has his basic bolters not Sonic blasters. So not what you were saying. I imagine that he took them just cos they are fearless? so won't run.

puree wrote:So not what you were saying. I imagine that he took them just cos they are fearless? so won't run.

Yes apparently so.

GBF, I do like the enhanced marines but for one thing:

SLOW. To get them anywhere reliably, you have to buy Land Raiders with Daemonic Possession. That's 240 points + the squad cost.

Then once they get to the other side of the board, since you don't have crusaders you have only 30 T4 3+ save guys.

This is a serious issue. Alot of armies, facing off against Fabius, his 30 friends, and 3 LR's....well, it's certainly dangerous but you just spent 240x3 + 240x3 + 3xMarks + Fabius' 160...that's what, 1700 points give or take?

So you have no shooting, and mobile armies rip you a new one?

So make it a gunline, and you have 6 fearless CC squads with 6 lascannons, for what....1300 points? Do you forgo the unit champion to save points so you can get oblits or havocs, plus a 2nd HQ? If it's a DP, doesn't it die first since you now have only marines to shoot at?

For me, it's just way too many problems to get the enhanced warriors into battle and asking for trouble from balanced lists that can shoot you up which is...everyone's army?

I'd love to hear how you'd make them work. I think they're too costly, and against most current mobile or CC oriented armies you'll lose big.

The EC for 100 points are pretty good bang for the buck when going for a minimal squad. If you want to shave a couple marines/termies/raptors off other squads to get blastmasters in, by all means give it a shot.

I don't want to spend more points on the EC than the minimum because except in the TS/ES army I run now, they aren't there to do anything but keep assault squads away from the Oblits. They can tie up assault marines and chop up gaunts with equal ease. Sure they'll die on his turn, but that's ok.

Remember, EC have the bolter/bolt pistol choices, so they can rapid fire or shoot pistols then charge. They are also I5, so the usual Eldar advantages of going first can be negated.

Why not take 10 Enhanced Warriors per squad and arm them with las/plas and a power fist plus MoS. They can ride in a rhino.

- G

Stelek wrote:They are also I5, so the usual Eldar advantages of going first can be negated.

Yeah, that's very cool versus those Herlequins, isn't it?
The rest of the pointy ears are rather shooty...so I wouldn't care about them assaulting my Oblits.

Alpharius Walks wrote:Thousand Sons still get a few PW attacks with the Sorcerer's force weapon, and buying more ranged shooting attacks works better with the army's strategy. Besides, if the Thousand Sons are mostly playing stationary, anything that can get the charge on them is going to ignore the template. Giving them a S8 AP2 weapon also gives them something to do against termies and vehicles, particularly once they run out of 3+ save targets.

I think you mix some things up here...Gift of Chaos also not only kill an enemy model (or two) in your turn, but also gives you some extra attacks, something 1k Sons really need. And shooting armour with them is a waste of those S4 AP3 shots...and that's actually the reason for taking them, isn't it?

Alpharius Walks wrote:Based on my own experience with Guard, I would agree with Stelek that infiltrate is not nearly a good enough way of getting 12" weapons on target when combined with a 6" walking move. Sometimes you get lucky, but most of the time you're just feeding an almost 200 pt unit to the enemy's assault vanguard without it having accomplished much. Guard can do infil/DS with vets and the like because they're cheap, but Chaos lists can't burn 200 pts. on the hope that something goes right.

In my Codex Plasmaguns can shoot 24" and you should recalculate those '200 pts. Infiltration speeds them up a bit and they can take Icons, wich make them more resilent.

@GBF:
Las/Plas in a Rhino? With MoS? Drop the LC and buy an IoT...maybe then they are worth it...but still...DG serve you better now and then.

1: Not everyone plays Harlequins/HB. Lots of people play Aspect Warriors, Guardians, Warlock squads. There are also Dark Eldar where <gasp> not everyone plays Wyches.
And Tyranid armies with <gasp> Gaunts not Stealers. Lighten up!

2: Gift of Chaos works on infantry models. What you should be shooting at. Why do you need MORE anti-infantry? You need FLEX in your units. When all the toughness models are in transports, not being able to blow them up and getting shot as a result does tend to make one feel pretty stupid for not bringing Bolt of Change. I learned after just *one* game. Play as many as you feel you need to.

3: Plasmaguns shoot 24", and those shots at 24" with infiltrate mean I can shoot back at your infiltrating unit with MY 24" range guns as well as whatever else I need to; and kill your unit.

Funny thing is, I thought AW made an excellent post and really 'got it'.

Stelek wrote: Here I'm going to critique Chaos units so people understand why they aren't recommended

Good! Then I get to critique your critique. .

Ahriman. Chaos' version of Eldrad, but only in points cost. His abilities won't win you games.

If Ahriman can cast 3 of the same power, then he is one of the best special characters Chaos has to offer.

HQ's:
Chaos Sorcerer. Dies to power fists or regular marines beating on him--T4 with 3+ save impresses nobody, mister! Demon Prince isn't BS3 anymore, so hiding and casting psychic powers is all he does. Is as useless in CC as a standard SM character.

A Chaos Sorcerer is one of the best HQ choices in the Chaos Codex. You can tool up a Tzeentch Sorcerer so that they can cast Warptime and then re-roll all to-hit and to wound rolls. In shooting if you add warptime to Doombolt it becomes really good. Then in assault you can give them a Disc of Tzeentch and they get 5 attacks, 6 on the charge. With Warptime, they will clear out any powerfists. And you can do the same thing with Slaanesh Sorcerer, only he will go at I 6. Or use the force weapon as a character killer. And that is not even going into how good the lash is. And since they are ICs, they can’t be targeted.

Greater Demon. Not a bad choice, but without flight....it's easily shot down/avoided. Even if dropped off using a bike unit, it's not very good.

That profile for only 100 points! Where do I sign up? Great defensive and offensive abilities. Even better these days is that they do not take up a valuable HQ slot.

Elites:

Chosen: If you want a minimum sized squad with a Lascanons, that's what this is good for. They're not very good on the tabletop, infiltrate or not,
because when you get down to it moving 6" is a liability.

You mentioned what they are good for. An infiltrating lascanon is a good thing since you get to set it up last, and place it where you want to.

Troops:
Chaos Rhinos. Problem with these is you usually don't want to be IN them, so all they are walking walls. I'd rather have more marines....and since they look cheap but with EA actually cost about the same as the last edition, they aren't any good for a Chaos army. Rhinos do not really give mobility. They give the illusion of it. Avoid them unless you want some walls for the other guy to blow up.

Chaos as a general rule is a slow army. So rhinos give you the option of moving some of your marines units fast if you need to. Sometimes you need to get close with an enemy that can out shoot you, head to an objective, or an enemy deployment zone.

Heavy Support:
Chaos Predator: Same as the vindicator only difference is, you can't take daemonic possession because it reduces you to BS3 without twin-linking on all your weapons (or like on the Vindicator, it doesn't matter since you use a scatter die.) Loyalist marines get the same thing, so why run it? Are you playing 'spiky' marines, or Chaos?

While the all-lascanon predator is a thing of the past, the Predator with an auto-canon turret and heavy bolter sponsons is very cheap and good against infantry. Also you can give it the TL Lascanons turret and you can still move and fire all its weapons and will give it some anti-tank in a pinch, and also a shot to help out with killing marines and Monstrous creatures.

Here are the units you do want to take, and why.

We will see why some are not that good.

Special Characters:

Abaddon: He's a monster in close combat. Only force weapons can take him down. He will kill everything else in the entire game. Units, characters, monstrous creatures. If they get near him, they'd better shoot him dead or pray you roll a 1 for his daemon weapon...else you're about to lose close combat when he's done with you.

You are tying up 275 points of your army into a model that moves 6” a turn. All anyone has to do to counter him is to do is walk away from him, and there is nothing he can do to hurt you. So yes, he can kick some butt, but getting him into combat is a different story.

HQs:

Demon Princes: These guys are bad. Take two. Give them wings. After that, if you want to give them a Mark, go ahead. Not Khorne please, the Chaos Psychic powers are good. Nurgles rot, lash, warptime, and bolt of change all have a place. I favor Warptime and Mark of Slaanesh, but with DP almost any combination of Marks/Psychic powers is good.

Although Demon Princes got cheaper in the new codex and gained some abilities, they are still Monstrous Creatures that still have a 3+ save and T5. Shooting will take them down pretty fast. Also without warptime they are have 4 attacks. That means against marines they are killing 1.7 marines a round (yawn).

Troops:

Noise Marines. They can compete against I5 characters and troops, and give you a missile launcher and a power fist--plus against things like IG, horde nids, and Orks...sonic blasters are truly killy weapons. They can also morph from 2 shots with sonic blasters to CCW/BP and assault with 3 more attacks. They aren't the strongest but have their place.

Noise Marines are one of the worst units in the codex. For 5 points more than a regular marine you get I+1 and fearlessness? And a missile launcher? A blastmaster costs 40 points!

Thousand Sons. S4 missile launchers, 24" range. 2 shots at 12". 4+ Invulnerable save. Move and fire. Can't have a fist, but can have bolt of change on the sorc (I highly recommend it). These guys are weak in CC, but with a little help from the Noise or Plague Marines countercharging can stop an assault cold until you can drop your support units into the enemy and drive him off.

Bolt of Change is not a good fit for this unit. Since this is an anti-infantry unit, you want a power that works well with that role. You either want to take Warptime to help them out in assault, or Doombolt.

Fast Attack:

Raptors. While they cannot be fearless, you can give them a mark. Personally I recommend Nurgle. T5 jump assault marines are no joke. Give them a couple meltaguns and a powerfist, and bring 15 of them. Like Terminators, bring ALOT if you are going to bring them at all.

Raptors have trouble taking on the true assault specialists. The Eldar, Dark Eldar, Genestealers, etc. Instead of using them in the role of an assault unit, they do better in small numbers with a Meltaguns for tank hunting, or a couple of Flamers for anti-horde.

Chaos Marine Bikers. Minimum sized units with 2 meltaguns are very useful. I don't run bikers anymore, but you can toss mark of nurgle on 'em and make them very tough. problem is, they are horrible in CC and not very good at shooting. I can't say they are bad units, so they are here with a big ? on them.

At 33 points a pop, they are the most expensive unit in the chaos codex. For their price they neither shoot, nor assault very well.

Heavy Support:

Obliterators. Energy weapon, please! Move and fire. 2+ save really helps. These are your anti-tank units. Lots of armies bring tanks, that's what these guys are for. I use them because they are unique in the game, and I like that.

Oblits are real weak as far as defense goes. Shoot some strength 8+ AP 2 weapons at them, and they will disappear. Dark Eldar, Eldar, Exorcists, SAFH SM and IG will all do a number on them.

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Now on to my template.

What I find about all of your armies is that you waste 200 points (10% of your total) on worthless Noise Marine Squads. Since you have to take 2 troop units, at least take units that will be able to be threats, and do something and can fill a role. Oblits should not be seeing any assault, so you don’t need to baby sit them, and if you have them for their bolters, basic Marines shoot just as well for a lot less.

Note: I did not address anything about Khorne because that is the one area of Chaos that I don't know about.

All i would like to say is that Khorne can still work it just takes very careful setup and movement.

For filling compulsory troops, nothing beats 5 CSMs with a plasmagun. 10 CSM's with IoU and las/plas is not a ridiculous purchase and is definitely better than noise marines of any sort.

Also, lash is the best thing to ever exist in any codex, and making a claim that warptime is better in any fashion is absurd. Maybe everyone already knows how crazy broken lash is, but if you're going to make a "tactica Chaos" or whatever, lash is where you start.