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I keep seeing the term Stealer Shock being used. They all seem more like Nidzilla with a few more stealers. This is my vanguard army. The force that attacks a world before the main host but after Genestealer infiltration. I am 2-0 with this list. Against an Eldar army and an Ork army. There is very little shooting. I had problems justifying a carnifex to myself but decided it was necessary to be somewhat competitive/holding objectives. Despite their poor armour save trying to kill 57 Genestealers isn't so easy. I try to keep them safe until the mines and the Lictor have whittled down the major threats to the stealers. I brought an army similar to this to Astronomi-con Toronto and did fairly well. Basically the stealers did all the work, everything else never got to fight. The meiotic spores are very good at killing tanks, but if they don't I can be screwed. Thats why I have 6 of them. The lictor is also good at taking out that Whirlwind or Basilisk at the back of the board. I do rely on having 25% terrain. Some boards have more some have less.

Broodlord, Carapace = 80
5 Stealers, Flesh Hooks = 85

10 Genestealers, Scuttlers, Flesh Hooks = 200

10 Genestealers, Scuttlers, Flesh Hooks = 200

10 Genestealers, Scuttlers, Flesh Hooks = 200

10 Genestealers, Scuttlers, Flesh Hooks = 200

10 Genestealers, Scuttlers, Flesh Hooks = 200

3 Leaping Ripper Swarms, Flesh Hooks = 45

3 Forge World Meiotic Spore Sacs = 105

3 Forge World Meiotic Spore Sacs = 105

Lictor = 80

With no MCs you will have a difficult time reaching a SAFH list. They will just sit back and watch the slow annihilation of your list. Against other lists that focus on HtH you should have little to no problem going through them like butter.

This is by no means an all comers list but it does have some good flavor and theme to it. I am also assuming that this is not meant to be a tournament list?

IMHO a stealershock list involves two things.

Stealers; which mean gene stealers, which your list has in abundance.

And shock; which I take to mean scuttle as this is what gives you the second turn engagement which is vital to the concept.


Of course Yak and several others here will also tell you to buy EC for all those stealers as well.

Great theme list, I'd love to play against it, as I have a lot of short range shooty stuff with my Eldar, which would make for an exciting game, particularly CoD.

The only problem is what you said about the 5+ save. Sure, 'stealers are cheap point wise for the damage they can do, but they have to assault to get that...otherwise, youre wasting points. I'm not really a tournament player, but I hear that MC lists are the way to go these days, which is boring but it works.

EC is a must for stealers that will be running up the board. The diffrence from getting a save against a bolter and not is big deal. With no TMCs to hide behind your stealers will be exposed big time to enemy shooting (Terrain Dependant).

If you had a choice between scuttle or EC for stealers (but had a couple of carnies but not a full on zilla list) which would you posit as being better?

If you are depending on your stealers to do most of your dirty work then scuttle all the way. There is some controversy about the usefulness of EC, (some armies use very little ap 5 weaponry and then EC is a waste, see competitive Crons and infantry IG) on the other hand there is very little controversy about the usefulness of scuttle unless you are using stealers as counter assault.

Thanks Russell.

I don't mind being terrain dependent. I have always felt that limiting your soldiers makes you a better general. I have become a very good player over the last few years. If I took competitive lists I would clean up. I take theme lists because they are fun. I don't need a second turn charge because I set the stealers up with the Spores and Lictor. Although if I had to choose between Carapace and Scuttlers I would choose Scuttlers. Scuttling is effective every game. Where as Carapace can be ignored. I am going to edit my list for theory purposes.

Seems like the Biovore has synapse trouble, right?

Do Stealers come with Flesh hooks, or do you have some other way to get around terrain? It seems like the enemies (I'm thinking tac marines) can just sit in some cover and fire as you approach, then beat you in combat due to the I10 cover rule.

It seems like a cool list though. Seems like you'd beat the tar out of opponent's blitz lists, since they pay for speed and fight and you are just buying the fight.

I like the list. If I wasn't enamored with the idea of creating my own flying tyrant I would be painting up a similar army.

I don't need a second turn charge because I set the stealers up with the Spores and Lictor.

I think I know what you are saying here but can you elaborate? Looking at it I see no reason other then fluff to bother with the lictor.

And also, does the biovore contribute much? They are cheap enough points wise that I was tempted to use a few (and the new models are kinda cool)

How do you deal with skimmers? My stealers have some difficulty with skimmer heavy lists, even with massed assaults.

I prefer carapace to scuttlers. Ok, it does nothing against heavy bolters and other horde killing weapons, but the increaed protection angainst baasic guns is worth it.

4+ save vs bolters is great, but alos factor in pulse rifles etc, even lasguns where you get a 4+ instead of a 5+ is worth it is you save half rather than a third of stealers wounded.

However the real benefit kicks in where the stealers ought to be, in close combat. Sure stealers strike first, normally, and they rend, and the principle enemy has a power weapon or fist to kill some stealers back. But the rank abnd file return hits clock up, if you dont get plenty of sixes they get plenty of return strikes, surviving half of them (minus the vet sgt or equivalent) is worth while.

Especially because after attrition on the way in you might not have that many stealers left, enemies are not easy to rend away outright so subsequent rounds of combat matter.

I would like to see the maths on carapace vs talons against a large block of orks or MEq, ignoring fire on the way in, just calculating the average number of attacks you get on the second round of combat.

Orlanth wrote:
I would like to see the maths on carapace vs talons against a large block of orks or MEq, ignoring fire on the way in, just calculating the average number of attacks you get on the second round of combat.

Assuming no casaulties on the way in, that everyone fights (no kill zone issues), and that we are following the single 'most likely' result at each stage.

Talons.

Against 10 marines + las/plas + sgt/PF ~215 pts (codex not on me)

11 stealers = 220pts

69% chance of the marines being wiped and there not being a 2nd combat round.

Against 245pts of 30 shoota boyz (with 3 rokkist + pk nob), the same 11 stealers kill 16 orks first, the remaining orks kill 4 stealers. So 2nd round sees 7 stealers against 14 orks. 21 stealer attacks kill another 8. leaving 6 orks who kill 2 more stealers before running.


Carapace. 11 stealers still.

marine version = probably 8 dead marines, followed by 1 dead stealer. The stealers win in round 2. Possibly round 1 depending on whether we are talking ATSKNF marines or just MEQs.

ork version = 12 dead orks and 3 dead stealers. round 2 = 6 orks and 2 stealers. round 3 = 4 orks v 2 stealers. Orks checking morale on a 7.

Puree I think you mistyped.

220pts get you 13.75 stealers with no EC and 11 stealers with EC.

Easier math is 160pts gets you 10 stealers, 8 with EC.

Against a 10 man marine squad with a pfist sarge..

10 non EC stealers do 30 attacks on the charge with 5 rends. the 15 remaining hits wound 50% = 7.5 wounds, the marines save 66% of those leaving 2.5 dead marines + 5 rends = 7.5 dead marines.

The surviving sarge and his 1.5 buddies strike back. 1.5basic marines = 1.5 attacks hit 50% for .75 hit, wound 50% for .375 wounds, non EC stealers save 33% for .274 wounds. The sarge strikes twice hits 50% for 1 hit, wounds 84% with no save for .84 wounds.
total 1.08 dead Non EC stealers.

8 EC stealers do 24 attacks, 4 rends. 12 remaining hits wound at 50% = 6 wounds marines save at 66% = 2 dead marines for 6 dead. The Sage still does his .84 kills as above, the remaining 3 marines hit 50% for 1.5 , wound 50% for.75, and the improved EC saves 50% = .375 dead stealers.
total 1.215 dead EC stealers.

Non EC stealers lose 1.08/10 = 10.8% of there forces
EC stealers lose 1.215/8 = 15.18%

The 8 EC stealers are definitively worse than the 10 non EC stealers in this situation.

Russell wrote:Puree I think you mistyped.

220pts get you 13.75 stealers with no EC and 11 stealers with EC.

No I think you just mis-read. There was a comparison between Talons (which I take to mean the extra talons at 4 pts) and the carapace. both cost 20pts, 11 of either for 220pts.

puree you are correct, the error is mine.

talons do cause more destruction and are just a bit worth while if you assume no casualties. But there are always casualties going in. Once you factor losses from enemy fire before hth Talons become much less appealing.

Russell wrote:talons do cause more destruction and are just a bit worth while if you assume no casualties. But there are always casualties going in. Once you factor losses from enemy fire before hth Talons become much less appealing.

No doubt - I was just following up Orlanths post.

I am starting a poll.

Would you take...

Enhanced Carapace

Scuttlers + Flesh Hooks

Scything Talons

Personal experiences, math hammer or just BS comments will be accepted with your vote.

oops

Russell wrote:Non EC stealers lose 1.08/10 = 10.8% of there forces
EC stealers lose 1.215/8 = 15.18%

The 8 EC stealers are definitively worse than the 10 non EC stealers in this situation.

Now do the math with the Marines getting one round of shooting into the Genestealers first...

I don't think anyone doubts that non-EC Stealers will do better once into combat - it's getting there that becomes a problem.

Thanks for the calculations.

Its just a single set of statistics to feed into the others.

More attacks mean more rends. what I was looking for is the effectivness of EC in combat, first vs something of equal value, then we get stealer vs stealer py points as a bonus from Russel.

In both cases you get a good return for EC, and that assumes the stealers are ignored in shooting (which noone will do).

There have been numerous tests of what happens when a marine squad shoots stealers, and the arguments for EC are very solid there.

Increased numbers getting into combat, plus solid performance once in combat confirms my belief that EC is the way forward.

NVM - I'm going mad ( to many calculations scribbled down on the same bit of paper and losing track at what was for what).

Back to the original army list:

Where the heck is the Carnifex you mention in the text?

Also, I love the FW meiotic spores but they alone can't really be counted on to take out enemy vehicles.

This army will crash and burn against any vehicle heavy army or any army that can manuever away from the Genestealers and keep firing at them (bike armies, for example).

That's why the stealer shock list we took to Adepticon (and that I recommend to anyone) includes as much AT fire as possible. . .because its the only way to make the list a little less gimmicky and help it face a variety of army types.


As for JFraz's question about whether to take Scuttlers or EC (if you're only picking one or the other) it really depends on how many stealers you're taking in the army.

If you're going with a whole bunch of stealers, then if you're only going to take one upgrade Scuttlers is definitely the better choice.

However if you're only taking around two broods of 'em, then scuttlers really isn't going to do you crap (your two squads will just get blown away before you engage anything). In that case EC is by far the more useful upgrade.

Thanks Yakmeister. Thats helpful.

Do you have a reference on the adepticon list you note? I've got a middle power list and wanted to compare the differences.

I love the list, but I'd like to be the Devil's Advocate as well...

'Stealer Shock'... obviously it's YOUR theme, so you decide how you'd like to interpret that.

You have obviously gone the route of 'shocking' your opponent with the sheer number of Genestealers in your army list.
This gives the opponent only three choices in the battle: shoot them, fight them, run from them. Or some of all (four choices?).
For many army lists and commanders out there, a shocking proposition indeed - they loose their assumed tactical plan.

On the other hand the word 'Shock' in 'Stealer Shock' can also refer to the use of it as a Genestealer heavy 'Shocktroops' list.
In this case the quintessential Tyranid 'Shock Troop' is definately the Carnifex. Even says so in the codex! So a list which is quite like 'Nidzilla' in the orientation oif having a lot of Canifex, plus adding Genestealers for the bullk of the Troops choice work... certainly fits the 'Stealer Shock' theme.

I love you list, good job keeping it pure-strain & have fun playing it! I'll give it a try as well.

one thing I can see on first glances, your stealers are SO prone to ap5 bolter fire, I usually use Ext Carapace and Scuttlers, well you can see in the stealer list I posted earlier.