Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Broodlord & 'stealer retinue x5 w/ ext. carapace @170 points

HT w/ venom cannon, enhanced senses (BS), scytals & tyrant guard x1 @168 points

Which would be more effective/survivable in this stealer shock oriented list @2000 points?

HT @170 points
~winged, scytals x2, warp field, ad. glands (WS)

'fex x3 @555 points
~venom cannon, enhanced senses, ext. carapace, reinforced chitin, scytals, ad. glands (WS), tail mace

'stealers 2x12 @552 points
~ext. carapace, scuttlers

'stealers 4x6 @552 points
~ext. carapace, scuttlers

Is the infiltrating 8 wound/4+ save unit tactically superior to the 6 wound/3+ save unit?

I am thinking the tyrant & guard gets the nod with the toughness 6 and cannon shots. Also, I can hide a squad of 6 stealers behind the monstrous creatures as they advance.

Thoughts?

Personally, I'd say neither. Use the points for something like more stealers, or some lictors/ravagers.

However, if it's a choice between only those two, then I'd say broodlord. With scuttlers, you're going to be placing your stealers far forward and using the scout move. Can't hid behind anything if you're out in front.

Centurian used the Broodlord in the Chicago GT (and won with it) but he wasn't completely pleased with its performance.

Personally I think you should stick with the walking Tyrant simply because it gives you another Venom Cannon so you have more options against mech heavy opponents (I'd also recommend taking a TL Devourer instead of the Scything talons on the Tyrant).

I don't see the need to take any Tyrant Guard in this army list though, the Tyrant on his own should be fine (and you don't need the Synapse for anything really).

I don't care for some of the choices you've gone with in equipping your units, though.

The flying Tyrant with a x2 TL Devourer is a better fit for the army and either way you NEED implant attack and (I recommend) Acid Maw and Toxin Sacs.

Your Carnifex choices are crazy. For this army type you really want a standard Gunfex (+1 BS, VC, BS & +1W). Not only are they cheaper in points then what you've taken (163 a piece) but they fill the role you need filled with this army (long-ranged AT fire).

Also, you'll find that really small units of stealers are a little hard to keep alive in this army type. I recommend sticking with all 8 man units where possible and only go with less numbers when you run out of points.


When you say that you can hide your stealers behind the MCs as they advance I think you may be confused as to how stealer shock armies function. With Scuttlers all of your stealers will be far in front of everything else in your army besides the Winged Tyrant (and even with the winged Tyrant the stealers are usually in front). You don't even move most of your MCs forward except to capture table objectives. For the most part they stay in cover or in the back, which is why you don't need to give any of them CC upgrades (like Scything Talons).

I'd like to once again say that that 'standard' is anything but.

+1 BS, VC, TL Dev is all you need on a tank hunting fex.

A Tyrant with Guard takes a long time to get where he's going, but he'll usually get there. I don't think much of the broodlord, regardless of who won what against what armies in what scenarios. He works best on new players. He doesn't work very well against experienced players.

Infiltrate isn't what it used to be.

Stelek wrote:I'd like to once again say that that 'standard' is anything but.

+1 BS, VC, TL Dev is all you need on a tank hunting fex.

We probably shouldn't derail his thread into a Gunfex discussion. . .but I will anyway.


The +1W on a Gunfex isn't nearly the necessity in a Stealer Shock army as it is in a Godzilla list, but I have to completely disagree with you about the Devourer for a number of reasons.


Primarily, the Barbed Strangler is a much better fit with a Venom Cannon because they compliment each other by being roughly the same strength and range. This makes the Gunfex able to sit at 36" range and shoot at full capacity. Especially in a stealer shock army where most of the army is rushing forward to engage the enemy, the Gunfexes sit back and capture objectives at which point the extra range provided by the Barbed Strangler is very useful.


Second, the Gunfex in a stealer shock army is most needed to take out vehicles. In that role, the Barbed Strangler is again superior to the TL Devourer. Its longer range means it is harder for vehicles to stay out of its range, Its higher strength means it can potentially target and destroy any vehicle and its ability to actually penetrate armor (which the VC can't do most of the time) turns out to be a bonus every now and then.


Third, the big blast markers of the Barbed Strangler are important in getting the opponent to spread out their models. Even units with a good armor save will start to suffer extra casualties if they continue to bunch up when facing 3 Barbed Stranglers. Without the Barbed Stranglers in the army the enemy is free to bunch their models up which is bad for the Tyranid player for a couple of reasons.

It allows the enemy to take advantage of cover more easily (by fitting more models into small terrain pieces) which naturally means your stealers will be fighting more models with the cover bonus.
Bunched up enemy units are able to have more models in the kill zone in combat which means you'll either lose more stealers in combat (if you're unable to kill all the models in base contact) or (if you get too many stealers into the kill zone) you can end up accidentally wiping out the enemy unit leaving your stealers stranded in the open to be shot.

With a stealer shock army you really prefer that the opponent keeps their units spread out so you can better manipulate your combats to keep enemy models alive (out of the kill zone) with the hope that the stelaers are able to remain locked in combat into the opponent's turn. The barbed stranglers are absolutely vital in making sure that the opponent stays 'honest' and keeps his models spread out in his units.

Before we get too excited here, this list is not intended for GT play. Maybe it will see a RTT.

@yak
I spoke with Bill at Chicago and read his excellent blog, so I know what you are saying.

As far as the fex choices being crazy, let's tone it down a bit. Fisrt, your fex does not have ext. carapace. So if we take it off mine, they cost the same points. Second, the BS makes your fex mildly better at anti-tank. I see the wisdom in the BS dictating the opponents spacing. But aren't you compromising the VC as a gunfex. Why would you fire your gunfex at anything other than tanks? Isn't that their role in the army? Maybe the clever opponent would bunch all those guys up nicely to bait you into hitting them with the BS instead of hitting their tanks.

I am curious about your lack of ext. carapace on the fex. I understand the concept of putting it in cover and shooting from there getting a cover save versus lascannons and other AP 2/1 weapons, but what about all those missile lauchers, ion cannons, rokkits, blastmasters, eldar missile launchers, rail rifles, autocannons, reaper autocannons, missile pods, gauss cannons, shuriken cannons, assault cannons, and multi-lasers out there?

Also, I understand the stealer shock concept (it isn't too difficult ). I was not suggesting hiding ALL the stealers behind the HT. I clearly typed that 6 stealers could do it acting a a stealer retinue (like the broodlord) if necessary. If I can resist being confused long enough using the scuttlers means that the fexes will not be protected from assault. This is why I elected to go with the scytal, if it must fight. Maybe I'm dead wrong, but I don't think I will regret modeling the talon on the fex, at least it will look good

BTW~ I figured the extra VC would get the nod over the lord. A 3+save/toughness 6/monstrous creature with 6 wounds doesn't hurt either. Thanks for the feedback.

I guess my playstyle is different.

Against stealers I'll sit in terrain and take the pie templates to the face.

It doesn't do anywhere near as much damage as Stealers do.

Especially not for 2 turns before you're engaged in CC by the stealers.

I've played it both ways with my armies. I wasn't impressed with the pie plates that don't penetrate my armor. I've had one game where all 18 shots hit. I still won. So if I'm willing to take the extra casualty a turn, to invalidate your entire stealer shock--why would I not?

The extra plate isn't worth it.

Stelek wrote:I guess my playstyle is different.

Against stealers I'll sit in terrain and take the pie templates to the face.

It doesn't do anywhere near as much damage as Stealers do.

Especially not for 2 turns before you're engaged in CC by the stealers.

I've played it both ways with my armies. I wasn't impressed with the pie plates that don't penetrate my armor. I've had one game where all 18 shots hit. I still won. So if I'm willing to take the extra casualty a turn, to invalidate your entire stealer shock--why would I not?

The extra plate isn't worth it.

We aren't arguing the validity of the stealer shock army. Its the style of army he is choosing to play with. The question was, what is the better weapon configuration on a Carnifex given this type of army.

I gave you several reasons why the Barbed Strangler is superior to a TL Devourer in this scenario and you have yet to provide any reason why a stealer shock would want or need Carnifexes with Devourers.

In general, a stealer shock army has no problem dealing with infantry (at least it shouldn't; that's what all the genestealers are for) so having the short(ish) ranged Devourers on your Carnifexes doesn't do much good. Barbed Stranglers (at the very least) can help contribute to destroying vehicles since that is generally what the Carnifexes are firing at most of the game anyway.

When facing short ranged skimmer/fast death, I'd rather have the Devourers. They do well against skimmers, which is why I use them. Note that genestealers don't do well against skimmers, thus I use devourers.

Now if skimmer armies become uncommon, then sure I'll worry about bringing a BC.

When Ork Trukk boys run past your stealer line and get ready to hump your Carnifex to death, I want to see the look on the Tyranid players face.

Seen it a couple times already, it really is priceless. Devourers do very well knocking trukks out, where BC + VC don't. Once the orks are in assault range, you better blow the vehicle up immediately. I define assault range as 2.99 + 6 + possible waagh. If you can move back 6" and pop the Orks at as long a range as possible, your Carnifex might survive and end up shooting/scooting vs the Orks that pile out.

Hope that helps you understand my thinking and my experiences. If anyone wants to tell me how they're going to run genestealers backwards towards their own table edge to 'beat' this tactic...please do!

dornsfist wrote:

As far as the fex choices being crazy, let's tone it down a bit. Fisrt, your fex does not have ext. carapace. So if we take it off mine, they cost the same points. Second, the BS makes your fex mildly better at anti-tank. I see the wisdom in the BS dictating the opponents spacing. But aren't you compromising the VC as a gunfex. Why would you fire your gunfex at anything other than tanks? Isn't that their role in the army? Maybe the clever opponent would bunch all those guys up nicely to bait you into hitting them with the BS instead of hitting their tanks.

I am curious about your lack of ext. carapace on the fex. I understand the concept of putting it in cover and shooting from there getting a cover save versus lascannons and other AP 2/1 weapons, but what about all those missile lauchers, ion cannons, rokkits, blastmasters, eldar missile launchers, rail rifles, autocannons, reaper autocannons, missile pods, gauss cannons, shuriken cannons, assault cannons, and multi-lasers out there?

You should really cross anything that isn't AP3 off that list because if your opponent is firing something like an autocannon or Assault cannon at your Carnifexes you're either totally going to win that game or you've essentially already lost it.

Once you play a few games with the army type (have you yet?) you find that your Carnifexes don't end up taking much fire in most games because your opponents are so focused on dealing with the winged Tyrant and the Genestealers. If they don't handle those two units in the first two turns you ususally wipe out or engage most of their army in the next couple of turns which drastically reduces the amount of firepower that can be shot at the Carnifexes anyway.

If your stealers and Tyrant die without accomplishing this goal (wiping out most of the army) and only your Carnifexes remain facing off against most of the enemy army, then you are usually going to lose the game regardless of whether your Carnifexes have the 2+ save or not.

And the reality is, in most armies you really don't run into that many AP3 weapons. You're much more likely to face AP2 weapons (like Lascannons) for which the only protection is staying in cover.

dornsfist wrote:As far as the fex choices being crazy, let's tone it down a bit. Fisrt, your fex does not have ext. carapace. So if we take it off mine, they cost the same points. Second, the BS makes your fex mildly better at anti-tank. I see the wisdom in the BS dictating the opponents spacing. But aren't you compromising the VC as a gunfex. Why would you fire your gunfex at anything other than tanks? Isn't that their role in the army? Maybe the clever opponent would bunch all those guys up nicely to bait you into hitting them with the BS instead of hitting their tanks.

I am curious about your lack of ext. carapace on the fex. I understand the concept of putting it in cover and shooting from there getting a cover save versus lascannons and other AP 2/1 weapons, but what about all those missile lauchers, ion cannons, rokkits, blastmasters, eldar missile launchers, rail rifles, autocannons, reaper autocannons, missile pods, gauss cannons, shuriken cannons, assault cannons, and multi-lasers out there?

Thing is, with a Stealer Shock list the enemy will most likely not be shooting at your 'fexes. They're not nearly the threat the stealers are. So you don't really need them to be armored up. The only reason you really even have them is for skimmer lists, which hopefully you will be keeping stunned and thus won't need the armor then, either. Here, however, you do want the BS for the extra shot to help ensure keeping them stunned. The two venom-cannon shots have only a 75% chance of hitting the opponent's vehicle, not even counting hurting it.

Mnemoch wrote:The two venom-cannon shots have only a 75% chance of hitting the opponent's vehicle, not even counting hurting it.

How's that work then?

You have a fifty/fifty shot of hitting with a VC. Your carnie shooting gallery with hit roughly 3 times. Not sure where your pulling 75% from(unless ofcoures you twin link, but I'm not sure why you would do that)

I'm guessing he's talking about the odds of two VCs scoring at least one hit. Why he thinks this is a good measure, I have no clue.

It’s probably a little obvious, but the whole idea behind ‘stealer shock is to get as many ‘stealers into combat as possible. As such, the measure for all units and upgrades to units is whether they help the ‘stealers get across the board and into combat.

Ranged carnifex, and to a lesser extent ranged tyrants, are an absolute must if you’re expecting to face any significant quantity of enemy tanks or skimmers. They’re really the only options you have to stop assault cannons, heavy bolters, sub-munitions and all the other multi-shot AP4 weapons from tearing up your ‘stealers.

Defensive upgrades to keep your tyrants and carnifex alive are less important. The ‘stealers will be priority number one, so it’s likely most of the enemy fire will be directed towards them. The extra wound for the ‘fex and a single guard for the tyrant are really the only useful choices here, and even they’re not really mandatory.

Melee upgrades on ‘fex and walking tyrants are simply pointless. By the time these MCs reach combat the game will almost definitely be over one way or the other.

The Broodlord isn’t great. If you’re rolling your mission type there’s a chance you won’t be allowed to infiltrate, leaving you with an expensive and slow unit of ‘stealers. Even if you can infiltrate there’s frequently no useful place to hide your unit. But if you can overcome these problems, or are just willing to take the gamble, then a Broodlord can be effective at putting pressure on the enemy from the first turn, forcing him to redeploy troops away from the Broodlord and drawing fire. All that means less fire going towards your ‘stealers, and that’s a very good thing. Not a great choice, but not the worst way to gamble with around 200 points.

Other than that general advice, it’s really best to playtest, and slowly adapt an army over a number of games. It’s the only way to know what list works best against the opponents in your area, and with your own playing style. Slowly evolving and building an army is also pretty good fun, compared to picking a specific list and never deviating from it.

sebster wrote:Slowly evolving and building an army is also pretty good fun, compared to picking a specific list and never deviating from it.

It's sort of ironic that 'Nid lists are some of the least-likely to actually do this, given their limited range of effective choices for shooting and the excellence of certain CC troops. If the 5th ed. rumors about Troops being (either better or the only) scorers are true, we will at least as a nice growth spurt.

Savnock wrote:It's sort of ironic that 'Nid lists are some of the least-likely to actually do this, given their limited range of effective choices for shooting and the excellence of certain CC troops. If the 5th ed. rumors about Troops being (either better or the only) scorers are true, we will at least as a nice growth spurt.

Huh, I'd never thought of it that way but when looking at ultra-competitive tournament lists it's pretty true.

But I don't think dornsfist's list is being built for tournament play, so there should be a little more room to evolve over time.

(Sorry if this has been said before, I didnt read all of the replies) my stealer shoch army involved broodlord with retinue, many many genestealers with scuttlers and extended carapace, thats like 60 stealers all starting 6" more forward I took one gunfex, just plain with barbed strangler and venom cannon, could take out vehicles that were too far back for your stealers to easily reach, ig you have the points Bio acid biovores never goes down wrong in any army.

but wit hthat many stealers all with rending claws they can deal with vehicles effectively anyway, it's just the faster ones, which usually are the weaker ones youl want a gunfex for.

I don't like how small the quck reply box is, I can't read what i've written allready, I thinkthis reply is quite messy sorry.

(Sorry if this has been said before, I didnt read all of the replies) my stealer shoch army involved broodlord with retinue, many many genestealers with scuttlers and extended carapace, thats like 60 stealers all starting 6" more forward I took one gunfex, just plain with barbed strangler and venom cannon, could take out vehicles that were too far back for your stealers to easily reach, ig you have the points Bio acid biovores never goes down wrong in any army.

but wit hthat many stealers all with rending claws they can deal with vehicles effectively anyway, it's just the faster ones, which usually are the weaker ones youl want a gunfex for.

I don't like how small the quck reply box is, I can't read what i've written allready, I thinkthis reply is quite messy sorry.

"stealer shoch". That sounds like something nasty and communicable.