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As I've been trying to develop a list without Harlequins (because of the inevitable nerf to rending) here's a list I feel can't be improved:

HQ:

Autarch
Eldar Jetbike, Laser Lance, Fusion Gun, Mandiblasters

Elites:

6 Fire Dragons
Exarch, Dragon's Breath Flamer, Crack Shot

6 Fire Dragons
Exarch, Dragon's Breath Flamer, Crack Shot

6 Fire Dragons
Exarch, Dragon's Breath Flamer, Crack Shot

Troops:

3 Jetbikes
1 Warlock, Singing Spear, Destructor

3 Jetbikes
1 Warlock, Singing Spear, Destructor

3 Jetbikes
1 Warlock, Singing Spear, Destructor

3 Jetbikes
1 Warlock, Singing Spear, Destructor

Heavy Support:

Falcon
Shuriken Cannon x2, Holo-Fields, Spirit Stones

Falcon
Shuriken Cannon x2, Holo-Fields, Spirit Stones

Falcon
Shuriken Cannon x2, Holo-Fields, Spirit Stones

Total: 1500p

So, do you think the list Voodoo Boyz posted in his Ork thread could tackle these Eldar? I know the 7 heavy flamers might look like this is simply tooled to fight against Orks, but it's quite hardcore against a lot of armies. Tank shocks force footsloggers into crowds, and since all partials count as hits as far as flamer templates are concerned, it's going to be a bloodbath. Tyranid armies are going to lose all their Warriors, Genestealers and Gaunts, and 16 Meltaguns and couple Pulse Lasers and one close combat model can take a couple Carnifexes down per turn. It's all about keeping all these guys together so that they can support eachother and limit counter assaults by killing everything in range.

It's very solid. I haven't read Dakka's Ork Takktika nor most Ork lists, trying to keep my thoughts pure, so it's impossible to comment on his list. Got a link?

Your tactics are generally sound, I'm not sure it will work against armies that are similar in tactics. If your opponent is already bunched up, then what happens? For example, if you try going into a gunwall frontally I think it will end badly for you. Having to stand in front of it for a turn at 8" so you can tank shock through it to get your dragons unloaded is asking to get shot down.

Speeding past it is an option, but the gunwall can reform pretty easily and block a back-side attack.

Killing Eldar isn't easy by any means, not for any list.
At 1500 points you're fine for alot of armies, but similarly tweaked lists can give you a very hard time.

How do you kill Lootas? Flame them to death? Before or after they get to shoot at you? If before, what happened to what they shot?

You have alot of vulnerability to Tau SMS too.

Did you notice my concept on my Orks? Shooty shooty shooty...and like it or not, 12" move + 18" shooting is very dangerous for your Jetbike units. Even without special weapons, it's dangerous for your Falcons. Being stunned all the time sucks, and popping the Trukks doesn't do much to the Orks inside...who are very dangerous in CC in even small numbers to Fire Dragons.

Just some random thoughts.

Being stunned all the time sucks, and popping the Trukks doesn't do much to the Orks inside...who are very dangerous in CC in even small numbers to Fire Dragons.

Spirit Stones make the vehicles immune to stuns. Against the normal lists the strategy would be to get one biker squad or one Dragon squad to each Loota unit. It will cause enough casualties to make them run. If the Orks have Trukks I first pop the rides and then engage the squads that didn't run from the wreck casualties alone. This isn't an army that gets massacre victories without losing any models, but in the end most of the Falcons and a couple of my squads should still be completely intact, while the enemy army has been wiped out. In theory of course. Terrain and other things may affect the end result.

Against shooty armies, depending on terrain, I could first engage any units that are capable of moving to the middle to contest any objectives. To completely wipe out power armour units in one go I need to focus everything in my arsenal in one or two places.

Uhh I know that. I meant you get shot, they beat your armor; and if your holofield holds up...you can't shoot. Pretty normal for a Falcon to not be able to shoot.

Why would Orks run from wreck casaulties?

Therion,

I like the list.

Can you offer any insight on how you use the autarch without supplementary assault troops to aid him in combat?

What do you tend to target with him?

What do you do if he gets stuck in combat after the charge and is left with just Str3 attacks?

Thanks

Ebon wrote:
Can you offer any insight on how you use the autarch without supplementary assault troops to aid him in combat? What do you do if he gets stuck in combat after the charge and is left with just Str3 attacks?

Against hordes of infantry he's not particulary useful so I'd focus on keeping him alive. Against others, he can finish off wounded TMCs and MEQ units. If he gets stuck in an unwanted close combat with serious opponents he will most likely die. He still has a lot of valuable uses and the bonus to reserve rolls is always welcome.

Stelek wrote:I meant you get shot, they beat your armor; and if your holofield holds up...you can't shoot.

When the Falcons can't shoot they'll focus on tank shocking and blocking enemy models.

Stelek wrote:Why would Orks run from wreck casaulties?

Well, if the Orks get the normal wreck result and suffer S3 hits, 4 of them will die and the unit will test on LD8. Any squad can now kill a couple more and guarantee the break and no chance to rally.

What I most like about my list is that everything can hurt everything in the game. So much for Eldar 'specialisation'.

Blocking enemy models? How do you mean? Like...you can't move here type of body blocking?

How do you 'guarantee' a break by killing a couple Orks, even in a reduced strength squad? The force? lol jk.

Eldar have always had this as part of their makeup. You can OVER-specialize to CC though.

Stelek wrote:Blocking enemy models? How do you mean? Like...you can't move here type of body blocking?

How do you 'guarantee' a break by killing a couple Orks, even in a reduced strength squad? The force? lol jk.

You're a funny guy Blocking models means moving a column of tanks infront of enemy models that would like to assault my infantry or bikes. It's really the standard way to play mechanised short range armies. You split armies like Tyranids in two by tank shocking to the middle of their 'mob' and disembarking with everything on one side. Shooting is then all that causes casualties. Empty Falcons will gladly take close combat attacks from Hive Tyrants or other big monsters. Close combat against skimmers is hopelessly ineffective and next turn the Eldar troops on the safe side (because all the Tyranids on that side have been wiped out) will turn their attention to the other side. An Eldar version of the Fish of Fury, if you will.

But skimmers don't block LOS, and I run a shooty gunwall. That tactic just means I don't have to open the can of tuna, you opened it for me.

What am I missing here? Who CC's Skimmers with TMCs unless the other guy lets him after they shoot him?

I must be missing something, how are you wiping out half the gunwall in a turn again?

I must be missing something, how are you wiping out half the gunwall in a turn again?

Are you playing dense now? You must be kidding. So, you've tossed me against Tyranids that form a gunwall and use only shooty bugs. I would always split the exact amount that I can expect to kill, and not half of any number. Why would I do something like that you ask? Does it look like this army or any tri-Falcon mech Eldar army can defeat any kind of gunwall by sniping at it from range? No, you make your move and annihilate a number of expensive enemy units. It's ridiculous to speculate what targets will present themselves, but three big bugs are going to die as will a large number of small bugs. Tyranids will then be free to shoot at AV12 holo-field skimmers moving fast with everything they got, or open up with any Dakkafexes on the Fire Dragons. Those are the casualties that I have to endure with a list like this. If units like Gaunts or Stealers or Raveners (or Ork Boyz) manage to assault the Dragons and Jetbikes I am going to lose the game and that's what the wall of tanks will prevent.

Of course the strategy is completely different if I'm going for a draw, but the fortune usually favours the bold.

No, not being dense.

Just confused, I guess.

You have seen my list and the tactics I recommend, haven't you? I'm just trying to figure out what you split and how you survive the ensuing fire.

...but the fortune usually favours the bold.

Actually, Embolden favors the bold...


With so many dragons, you can drop one dragon from each squad and still be able to overkill anything you like. This gives you a healthy 36 points that I think would be much better spent on shuriken cannons for your bikes.

I'm also confused on the lone autarch. I think you'd be much better off taking Yriel, and putting him in a falcon with the space from dropping the dragons. Yriel gives the same bonus to reserves, and is more than capable of taking on a whole squad solo-- much more than can be said of the biketarch. He's also almost as capable of taking out tanks, and even better at finishing off MCs.

-Leo037

Therion wrote:As I've been trying to develop a list without Harlequins (because of the inevitable nerf to rending) here's a list I feel can't be improved:

If you are developing a list based on 5th edition rumours (the rendng nerf you are on about?), then are you not going to also account for the 'ineveitable' nerf to falcons. I've heard they are likey to be hit quite a bit.

Therion if this is to counter Voodoo Boyz Ork list (I am assuming the footsloging list and not the cult of speed list) then you are going to have some serious issues with the Lootas. Loots will drop AV 12 skimmers like they are nothing. If you are going to attempt to take on Orks with Lootas you are going to need those cannons on the Jetbikes to thin them out before the you pull those falcons in range.

The other main concern I have is how do you plan to take on 100+ Orks in 1500 points. it just seems to me like you are going to unload everything at close to 12" and anything that you don't kill is going to be charging you and tiing you up till that Warboss comes knocking, and I don't see anything in your list that can deal with a Warboss on a bike.

puree wrote:
If you are developing a list based on 5th edition rumours (the rendng nerf you are on about?), then are you not going to also account for the 'ineveitable' nerf to falcons. I've heard they are likey to be hit quite a bit.

No, that doesn't seem as likely. To me it looks like the damage table will change to make vehicles harder to kill, but SMF will change to only count as obscured. Falcons will still do their job and will be more effective than anything else I could possibly use.

Negativemoney wrote:The other main concern I have is how do you plan to take on 100+ Orks in 1500 points

Don't let the numbers fool you, and don't underestimate the power of heavy flamers. It's possible to take out couple mobs per turn and prevent the rest from doing much in return. 24 Lootas aren't any more of a threat than the anti-tank weapons of other armies. A single Fire Dragon squad will wipe out possibly more than half a Loota squad (if they don't I'll assist with a couple of shuriken cannons from somewhere), and then they'll be testing on something like LD5 or less and won't rally. Alternatively I can just turbo-boost two squads of Bikes to each Loota mob. Lootas will cause their glancing hits and I'll still have my holo-fields. The more area terrain there is on the table the easier it is for me to approach unscathed. I'm hoping they only get to shoot at the Falcons once, and then each squad will cause two glancing hits. The Lootas are as good as dead in any case.

Warboss comes knocking, and I don't see anything in your list that can deal with a Warboss on a bike.

He's tough no doubt. Unless we're talking about Harlequins here, Eldar don't really have anything in their arsenal that can reliably give him a smacking in close combat. A fortuned biker Seer Council would kill him in close combat, but otherwise all I can do is use the normal strategy. He won't join a mob because then he faces the danger of that mob getting shot to pieces and him breaking with it, so he will be somewhere behind a mob or in the middle of a couple mobs. I will tank shock my column in there and unload the Meltaguns on him. If I play my hand correctly the Dragon's Breath Flamers will still fry a lot of Orks all around him. Two squads of Dragons and the Autarch will take him out. If I can't get to him, I'll make sure he won't get to me.

Easier said than done? Of course, but you said you don't see anything in the list that can kill Warbosses. I don't see it as being something to worry about. A lot of armies have something like him that I must be able to deal with.

Cypher037 wrote:Yriel gives the same bonus to reserves, and is more than capable of taking on a whole squad solo

I don't get it. How does he take on whole squads solo? A single S6 attack will instantly kill him, and all it takes is about 10 Slugga Boyz to whip him down with normal attacks. He can empty the kill zone only once per game, and it's most effective against Marines. I'm mostly concerned about Orks and Tyranids here.

All in all, it is my feeling that there's way too much faith in the Orks on this forum. If you expect an army with 2x Lootas, 3x Shoota Boyz and 1x Stormboyz to shrug off crack shot heavy flamers templates dropping down on them like rain from everywhere, you must think that there isn't any amount of firepower in the game that can take them out. I'm building an Ork army myself and I see Eldar armies like this somewhat of a nightmare scenario -- Armies you hope that noone ever makes so that you can keep getting easy wins out of people with a couple bolters and lascannons.

Having looked at both lists, I think this one will go to VB. I think you kill a lot of orks, but between the KFF and the bosspoles he doesn't break, and the counterattack is game. I'm rooting for you though.

40kenthusiast wrote:Having looked at both lists, I think this one will go to VB. I think you kill a lot of orks, but between the KFF and the bosspoles he doesn't break, and the counterattack is game. I'm rooting for you though.

VB? KFF of course doesn't work against my template weapons because they ignore cover saves.

I think the danger you encounter is when the opponent gets wise and shoots the jetbikes first. Without their heavy flamers the Ork list is going to frag your face off.

They aren't always easy to kill obviously due to the jsj stuff, but if he kills even two of the squads before you get to him, I just am not sure you can kill enough to keep him from wiping you with the counterattack and maybe taking a falcon out here or there.

I'd like to see it play out of course, but that's my worry.

Longshot wrote:I think the danger you encounter is when the opponent gets wise and shoots the jetbikes first. Without their heavy flamers the Ork list is going to frag your face off.

They aren't always easy to kill obviously due to the jsj stuff, but if he kills even two of the squads before you get to him, I just am not sure you can kill enough to keep him from wiping you with the counterattack and maybe taking a falcon out here or there.

I'd like to see it play out of course, but that's my worry.

It's easier to make a couple favorable close combats with Harlequin squads than play Eldar like short ranged Tau, but I think it's viable.

It's probably viable but Tau is the wrong comparison. Tau units JSJ to survive and get multiple rounds of fire off.

Your units are going to JSJ to survive long enough to get one shot (e.g. either turbo or jsj I guess, depending on what you want to do). Maybe one spear and then one destructor, depending on the opponent.

I'm thinking it will take a while for people to get wise that the jetbikes are the real threat they can do something about, but once that happens I predict this list drops to the realm of 50/50 vs. other uberlists at its best.

I'd be interested in seeing how you figure this would work against 1500pt power crons, or the best Tau lists available. Assuming we are examining this list for tournament viability.

I think it would struggle against a traditional MC list with it's 8 MC's. He just parks his MC in cover (preferably hard) until your Dragons pop out then shoot counter assault into the dragons which besides your Autarch are the major threats. You would probably do all right against certain ork builds but then you have to contend with all the other lists in a tournament. I would still keep a higher AP weapon on your Falcons because then they absorb more fire power because they are more of a threat. Three Falcons in 1500 also won't win you many comp/sportsmanship points btw.

Longshot wrote:It's probably viable but Tau is the wrong comparison. Tau units JSJ to survive and get multiple rounds of fire off.

Your units are going to JSJ to survive long enough to get one shot (e.g. either turbo or jsj I guess, depending on what you want to do). Maybe one spear and then one destructor, depending on the opponent.

I'm thinking it will take a while for people to get wise that the jetbikes are the real threat they can do something about, but once that happens I predict this list drops to the realm of 50/50 vs. other uberlists at its best.

I'd be interested in seeing how you figure this would work against 1500pt power crons, or the best Tau lists available. Assuming we are examining this list for tournament viability.

By the Tau comparison, I naturally meant the vulnerability to assault. This is an army that nearly only shoots, and almost any close combat is harmful to it. Being 50/50 against uberlists would be a very satisfying state of affairs, as there are currently no dominant lists around that can get much more than that against tough competitors on a metagame level. Necron and Tau matchups depend so much on what the other guy fields that it's tiresome to speculate endlessly about it. Against Necrons that bunch up near their Monoliths I'd tank shock all of their units three times every turn and pour all my firepower into the Monoliths untill they drop down. Fusion guns cause penetrating hits on 6's and spears count as lascannons and the pulse lasers have the off chance of getting something done.

Lemartes wrote:traditional MC list with it's 8 MC's. He just parks his MC in cover (preferably hard) until your Dragons pop out

Ahh yes. The Tyranids use the 'I park my 8 MC's inside this bunker and now you charge headlong towards me and give me victory points' strategy. No. If it looks like that will happen, I will keep everything outside the Nid range and line of sight and will play a draw or a minor victory out of the game.

The only problem here is that you have to get your jetbikes close enough to use their heavy flamers, which is going to be about 13"-15" away the turn before you come out to use the Flamers.

You had better be out of LOS to spring that on the horde since it shouldn't be too hard to force Torrent checks on your Warlock or just eliminate the squad.

Also if I start to see heavy flamers on jetbikes, I can maneuver to avoid it. Additionally my Assault range with the Storm Boyz is larger than your optimal heavy flamer range.

Also remember that if there's enough terrain for you approach, then it becomes easier for me to maneuver my elements as well.

The worst of it comes from the Falcons+Dragons who can tank shock and unload.

To be honest, the game would be cat and mouse as we tried to maneuver around each other and a lot would depend on terrain and what the deployment zones looked like. It'd be fun to play out if you were here in the states.

People playing monolith crons don't rate to be a top tables. Too hard to get the massacres in my experience.

You guys should play a few games with that online 40k client someone was posting and let us know how it goes.