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I believe the post about there being a 3500pt Ard Boyz in fantasy. I also know the fabulous prizes you get for winning even the first 2 rounds. I don't know a lot about fantasy, but I speculate Tzeentch magic and Steam tanks are two very powerful army designs. Mauleed said he would take a few of them and Karl Franz. So after everyones 1000pt Lord cancels out the other 1000pt Lord, what's left to stop a few streamtanks? I don't even know where to find the most current rules for them.

Treemen.

Heavy wood elf magic moving forests into the way.

That's pretty much all I can think of from my list.

Thanks, but I don't know what that is. Do you need to hit with str 10 weapons? How hard is it to hit? What str does it take to hurt it? How many wounds does it have? What's the point cost estimate?

DarthDiggler wrote:
I don't even know where to find the most current rules for them.

The current rules for Steamtanks is in the new Empire army book, released last January (2007).

I wonder how many clan rats you can fit in 3500.

The current rules for the tank are in the current Empire book.

It’s strong, but not nearly as broken as it was in the old Chronicles rules.

To kill it you need high-strength attacks. One nice feature is that at the beginning of the turn the controlling player decides how many steam points he wants to generate and adds that number to a die roll. If he rolls higher than the tank’s remaining wounds, it fails to act that round. This means that once you get a few wounds on it, it slows down and does less. One rough part is that since it’s a war machine, you technically don’t get half points for it with half wounds. You only get points if you destroy it.

Generally any high strength attacks can slow down or stop a tank. All you need is 3 or so wounds then the guy will have problems moving it without wounding it again.

Bolt throwers, cannons, stone throwers, jezzeles, monsters, ogre tyrants..
All are good.

Also pit of shades and the highest metal spell work wonders.

Pit of Shades fails because the stank is immune to any spell without a Strength value.

Otherwise you're dead-on.

Mannahnin wrote:The current rules for the tank are in the current Empire book.

It’s strong, but not nearly as broken as it was in the old Chronicles rules.

To kill it you need high-strength attacks. One nice feature is that at the beginning of the turn the controlling player decides how many steam points he wants to generate and adds that number to a die roll. If he rolls higher than the tank’s remaining wounds, it fails to act that round. This means that once you get a few wounds on it, it slows down and does less. One rough part is that since it’s a war machine, you technically don’t get half points for it with half wounds. You only get points if you destroy it.

I was told not even to engage it as much as possible (Wood Elves). Treesing
forest templates in its way, etc.

Smart idea for WE. Treemen and Treekin can hurt it, and Dryads have an outside chance. But it's best avoided.

Pit of Shades fails because the stank is immune to any spell without a Strength value.

Sorry, read pit of shades.
The steam tank says it is immune to spells W/O str value.
Pit of shades says it overrides any immunities.

Pit of shades trumps and the tank auto fails the test (still have to get the partial to hit though)

Hmm. Let's examine that:

"Pit of Shades.
Cast on a 12+
[fluff]
The Pit of Shades can be cast on any one unengaged enemy units within 24" and visible to the caster. If successfully cast, the ground falls away beneath the unit's feet.

Take the small round template and place it over a single enemy unit. All models in the target unit completely under the template are automatically hit and those partially covered by it are hit on a 4+ on a D6. Models hit must immediately take an Initiative test to avoid falling into the pit. If the test is passed, the model is not affected, but models falling this test are swallowed up by the ground and removed as casualties, regardless of any magical protection or special rules they may have. After this, the ground seals up and closes the pit, leaving no trace." (Rulebook 114).

Well, although this post was first going to say that I disagreed with you, Cypher, after typing out the entry and reading it for the nth time, I think you're right. If the Empire rulebook, which I don't have, says that the tank is immune but does not prevent the spell from targeting it anyway, it looks like the pit of shades can eat the damn thing.

Of course, for this to work, you've got to be a HE with Seer (do they still have that one?) or a another level 4 with a 2/3 chance to get the spell. And you're using shadow magic as opposed to fire or something. Once you get the spell, you still have to cast on a 12+ without getting dispelled, at which point you have another 1/2 chance of killing the damn thing. You've either got to swamp him in the magic phase or throw a lot of dice every turn on a lord-level caster and hope you have some sort of dispel protection.

I've never played a magic heavy army before, but relying on pit of shades to kill the thing seems like it would be tough.

EDIT: One more question--if they're immune, can they even take the test? Sure, if they fail the test they get removed regardless of special rules, but if they never get to take the test in the first place because of the immunity, I'm not sure it would work.

Pit vs Stank should be Faq:ed, too bad we know gw's track record regarding that. If the immunity is an issue, better discuss it with your opponent before the game starts. The consensus on other places seems to lean towards stank being immune (when this came up at warhammer.org.uk for example).

Thanks cypher, I don't know why I blanked on that.

Good call. I agree that it should work fine.

I don't know, Mannahin. The crux of the argument is that the STank takes the initiative test although it is immune to the spell.

It goes as such:

Cast spell-->determine hit-->take I test-->result that overrides special rules

I can see casting the spell on an immune target. I can even see determining whether the hit to which the target is immune is successful. But to then ask a target which is immune to spells without a S value to take an I test? I don't like the idea. The spell doesn't start overriding the STank's special rule until it's already failed the I test. And if it's "immune" to the spell before it fails the I test, I don't think it can take the I test.

The only other alternative is to say that it can take the I test because "immune" just means you ignore the final result; more specifically, immunity would allow you only to ignore damage and other slowing or otherwise deleterious effects. Of course, the I test in itself would be a neutral effect.

Either way, you're on shaky ground. I'd allow it, but I certainly wouldn't do it myself. Not until I see a better argument for it anyway.

For me it comes down to the default guideline of "the specific trumps the general".

Steam Tanks have a rule stating that they're immune to the effects of any spell which doesn't have a strength value.

Pit of Shades states that models which fail an I test die "regardless of any magical protection or special rules they may have".

The stank's immunity to most spells seems just such a special rule.