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I have been enjoying the posts about orks for a while, following the codex rumors, and now the battle accounts, commentaries etc. I have been noticing a few parallels between Orks and Skaven after the rumors were essentially confirmed when the new codex came out. I had a suspicion early on that I'd like to ask the community for comment on.

Are the Orks esentially the Skaven of 40k?

Basically the idea is that they are both filled with high volume of poor troops, whose exception rules and unique gizmos make the army disproportionately powerful? Basically nasty trick armies:

Skaven Warpcannon: Ork Shock Attack Gun
Skaven Crown of Command: Ork Mob Rule
Skaven Gun Volume (unique shooting in WHFB): Ork Lootas (Unique Shooting in 40K)
Skaven Lightning Wheel/Bell: Crazy Ork Trucks (Deathroller, Grabber Arm, Red Paint etc.)
Elements that potentially destroy themselves in both forces
Common element: hordes of squishy guys
Special Characters in both armies
Plus various seemingly broken ork tricks unique to the Ork army: insulated from entangled, broken fleet rules, broken D.S. assault rules

What say you?
???

Some of your comparisons have some merit, but overall I don’t think the army to army similarity is there.

Skaven are not actually poor troops, except in the area of Leadership, for which their special rules compensate very well. The Clanrat statline is kind of mediocre, but M5 is pretty nice for infantry. A comparison could be drawn to Skavenslaves corresponding to Gretchin in role, but Skavenslaves outperform grots both in a sacrificial role and in their ability to actually win some combats.

The Doomwheel is a pretty silly wonder weapon, and was actually replaced by the Warp Lightning Cannon to make the army less humorous. The WLC and SAG are kind of comparable, but again, the WLC (while a bit random and self-destructive) lacks the deliberately comic elements of the SAG. The Screaming Bell is not really comparable in function or design to anything the Orks have.

Skaven guns/magic are substantially more powerful and impressive against hard-armored targets than Ork shooting, even the Lootas. Orc Shootas make the mobs put out nasty shooting against light targets; the only thing the Rats have that does well against light stuff are the Ratling guns.

Overall the Orks seem a pretty balanced army with some strong builds. They’re a slow footslogger force that doesn’t have great anti-armor shooting (though the lootas help), but put out great anti-infantry shooting, and can really stand up in HtH. Skaven are only a little slower than the average fantasy army, due to their lack of cavalry. Their anti-armor shooting/magic is devastating- overall the best in the game. They are somewhat lacking in the anti-infantry shooting, with really only Ratlings filling this role. The army is arguably the best in the game at the “flee and flank game”, a strategy of redirection of enemy units and setting up favorable charges thanks to a large superiority in number of units on the table. 40k Ork armies will tend to have large units, but not all that many of them by comparison to other 40k forces. Until 7th edition came out and changed a couple of basic rules on them (exposing their weapon crews to shooting, and making the miscast chart nastier), Skaven were arguably the most dominant army in the game. They’re still easily top-tier, in part thanks to the replacement of the Charge Redirection rules with the more restrictive Enemy in the Way rules, which really make it easier for an army with lots of infantry units to set traps for faster enemy cavalry units.

Overall I have to say Orks are the Orcs of 40k, and you’ll find a lot more similarities there, though again, play styles differ a bit due to the differing mechanics of the games.

With Manny on this one, though it did remind me of a colorful anecdote I like to work in where possible

Years back I was chilling in the "Industrial Music" chatroom on the peer-to-peer program Grokster, amazed at some of the most inane banter I'd ever read. Naturally the conversation was almost entirely about sex, despite the label on the tin. Years later, this little exhange stays with me:

n00bageddon88 -- "<male members> are nature's bananas!"
MoreRivetThanYou -- "Bananas are nature's bananas, dumba$$"
Boss_Salvage -- "Oh snap!"

So. Orks are 40k's Orcs?

- Salvage

Very well, thanks for the perspectives, I'll easily admit I've never been much of a fantasy player over the years (clearly I didn't even know the doomwheel was gone).

>Some of your comparisons have some merit, but overall I don’t think the army to army similarity is there.

Thanks, I suppose my position came from a certain amount of mild frustration with the rules writing style for "exception rules" breaking core mechanics, which is really where I was pointing the similarities to. I originally had high hopes for the Ork codex, crazy things, like they might have some units at BS3 or better, like bad moon orks or something, but instead we get whole units of crazy guns with D3 shots, something I think was being removed from the game, like the pulse laser on a falcon. Also I was hoping for a better transport, perhaps an enclosed truck they could assault out of, or a higher armor open topped truck, maybe a 12? Instead we get the crazy kareen rules and a violation of the entangled mechanics for transports for the new wonder army... Units of orks with real armor so they stay around? Nope we get cheaper guys and the mob morale rule, more special cases...

I just don't like armies that break the core mechanics to get advantages I think its a poor style of rules writing, unique exception rules, and when I played skaven in WHFB I thought they were the kings of that (admittedly an edition ago).

>Skaven are not actually poor troops

S3 T3 with bad saves right?

Do you think the orks in 40k are like the fantasy ork army in some ways? I wouldnt know I never played the orks?

Anyway, thanks for the perspectives guys, seems well informed, and fun to read. Anyone else?

I'm pretty sure that orks are the...orcs of 40k. But that's just a very surface reading.

No. They are orks.

If I remember correctly, via the rogue trader book, the race called the Hrud were supposed to be the space equivilent of skaven.

Grot 6 wrote:No. They are orks.

If I remember correctly, via the rogue trader book, the race called the Hrud were supposed to be the space equivilent of skaven.

The Hrud share certain things in common with the Skaven of WHFB. And they are perhaps the closest thing in 40k to the Skaven. But it’s probably a mistake to think they are same. The Hrud draw a lot of inspiration from the Sand People of Star Wars. From the hooded clothing to the Sand Crawler. They are better described as a cross between Skaven and Sand People. Also, GW generally tries to keep the two game worlds different despite their origins of “WHFB in Space”.

So although there are similarities to the Skaven, they are not exactly “the 40k equivalent” per se.

~Logic