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I have played the same basic list in GT's for some years now. It is a SM shooty, vehicle oriented list without all the bells & whistles. It started because I liked the way some models looked. Then, evolved into a theme based on some chapter specific fluff. It always adhered to personal taste and viewpoints about certain units and how I felt they should be used based on my interpretation of current military configurations. It is consciously non-optimized for tourney play. My motivation has always been to play for fun, but try to win with the challenge of a non-optimized list with a sort of underdog mentality.

One aspect of my list that I have found to be proven true is the value of landspeeders in objective based games. They were first used in my list as theme/fluff oriented units that represented outriders/scouts to my armoured column approach. The more I used them in GT's, the more they really came up big in the GT missions, especially this season.

I have always used at least 2 typhoons. My question is, would it be considered to use 3 regular speeders (seperately). I know it is tactically advantageous, but I was wondering if it is looked down upon by GT regulars.

You mean making three speeders three squadrons instead of one? That’s not looked down upon at all, it's just smart. Especially if they're Typhoons and not Tornados. Some people do consider a lot of Tornados cheese, but typhoons or regular speeders, never.

-Leo037

They're not so good for capturing objectives because either they have to do it in the last turn of the game, in which case you have to keep them alive and sweep the objective clear of contesting units, or they do it in an earlier turn and they lose the benefit of speed.

Better to use a squad of Tactical Space Marines, either mounted in a Land Raider or a Drop Pod.

They're not so good for capturing objectives because either they have to do it in the last turn of the game, in which case you have to keep them alive and sweep the objective clear of contesting units, or they do it in an earlier turn and they lose the benefit of speed.

Better to use a squad of Tactical Space Marines, either mounted in a Land Raider or a Drop Pod.

Speeders much better in missions where it doesn't matter how many points the scoring unit is, just its presence (read: cleanse and loot). So what if they do it last turn? In that one turn they can easily swing the game by a quarter of the VPs in your favor. Also, because you can't control when a DP comes in, it makes them much worse at objective grabbing. And landraiders for objective grabbing? You must be mad! Sure they can be good for holding objectives, but not in the surefire, unpredictable, and cheep way speeders can.

The tricky part is doing it when you go first. If it's a loot game, make sure to place your tokens where speeders will be able to hide nearby. If it's cleanse, table quarters are gigantic, it's not too hard to find a hiding spot. In capture the center and opposing lines missions, you have to decide if they'll do better just getting they're points back by hiding, or if you just want them to fight normally. Hell, if you take HB speeders, you'll probably be safe shooting the first couple of turns, then hiding them, because they're not a huge threat. And I bet you're opponent will assume you'll just keep on shooting with them in the open, so he'll think he has plenty of time to shoot them down. Mind you, this only works in a tourny environment. And also might not be worth the risk of them dieing just for a few HB shots. I dunno, this is some serious theory hammer.

-Leo037

As I explained the problem with grabbing objectives in the last turn is that your Landspeeders need to be alive and mobile in the last turn, and despite their speed they are fragile. Of course they're not a huge threat, they can be shot easily and frequently are around my area because people are used to fast vehicles being used to capture objectives in the last turns of the game. Killing those units is a priority if you want to win the game.

The Landraider takes the Tactical squad, deposits them on the objective, and wanders off to freem, dakka, and tank shock enemy units. It's very well armoured so it will likely reach the objective, and can carry a Tactical squad.

I'm not talking "theory-hammer", I'm talking what actually happens in games where players know the tricks available and actually have to use tactics to achieve their ends and win the game.

I'm sorry if this wasn't clear in my post. In Loot and Cleanse missions, a land speeder will accomplish much more by hiding the entire game, not firing a shot, then grabbing/contesting ~400+ vps at the end of the game, then it will by staying out in the open, and hoping to be alive at the end of the game (which it won't be, like you stated).

I'm not talking "theory-hammer", I'm talking what actually happens in games where players know the tricks available and actually have to use tactics to achieve their ends and win the game.

That could very easily be seen as a personal attack, but I won't bite. Of course, I'm also talking about tactics and what really happens in games. I was only referring to the end of my post when I was talking about shooting for a couple of turns then hiding.

-Leo037

Cypher, everyone knows that grabbing objectives and such can only be accomplished by heavy units. Land Speeders are far too airy and fragile. The wind might blow away the loot token, or the other player might sneak it away. Only with a Land Raider mounted Tac Squad can you safely contest objectives. Also the Land Raider should be made of lead.

Let's take an unbiased look at the evidence:
Land Speeder:
24" move
low point value
WRONG CHOICE

Land Raider Mounted Tac Squad
Super Duper Heavy
Always (150% of the time) alive at the end of the game (the trick is that you deposit the tac squad on the objective...from your Land Raider...no one is allowed to blast them off it
Recommended by Nurglitch
SUPER RIGHT CHOICE

Its hard to decide, maybe Stelek can lend us a hand. I'll try and guess at his perspective:

FKE as Stelek-

Vehicles? Absurd! Objectives should be grabbed by static gunlines!

Keep your personal attacks to yourself.

If you have last turn, Land Speeders are fine.

If you don't, it can still be fine if you can provide cover for your Land Speeder with some area terrain.

Land Raider, tactical squad, alive on turn 6? I hope this is some kind of sarcasm...

From my experience in the GT's this season, my speeders survived as scoring units more than my land raider and accounted for more objectives.

Stelek-

Keep your personal attacks to yourself.

If you have last turn, Land Speeders are fine.

If you don't, it can still be fine if you can provide cover for your Land Speeder with some area terrain.

Land Raider, tactical squad, alive on turn 6? I hope this is some kind of sarcasm...

Spot on.

Most LR's are fire magnets, to any capable opponent. For 50/80 points LS's are good value for a 24" objective grabber. I find them too fragile, and have none in my Chapter because of ths, just personal preference.

Dornsfist

From my experience in the GT's this season, my speeders survived as scoring units more than my land raider and accounted for more objectives.

Not so much my experience, but YMMV. As generalmanship is concerned, I am more troop/DP heavy, so my opinions are biased.

40kenthusiast wrote:Cypher, everyone knows that grabbing objectives and such can only be accomplished by heavy units. Land Speeders are far too airy and fragile. The wind might blow away the loot token, or the other player might sneak it away. Only with a Land Raider mounted Tac Squad can you safely contest objectives. Also the Land Raider should be made of lead.

Let's take an unbiased look at the evidence:
Land Speeder:
24" move
low point value
WRONG CHOICE

Land Raider Mounted Tac Squad
Super Duper Heavy
Always (150% of the time) alive at the end of the game (the trick is that you deposit the tac squad on the objective...from your Land Raider...no one is allowed to blast them off it
Recommended by Nurglitch
SUPER RIGHT CHOICE

Its hard to decide, maybe Stelek can lend us a hand. I'll try and guess at his perspective:

FKE as Stelek-

Vehicles? Absurd! Objectives should be grabbed by static gunlines!

40kenthusiast, I don't see how this post adds to the conversation in any way, shape or form. Remember, Rule #1 is Be Polite. If you disagree with a poster, disagree politely. If you have a problem with the poster, use the Alert Mods button. Thank you.

Stelek: It isn't a personal attack, although people around here certainly do seem to take offense to the strangest things. I'm just pointing out the case where people know that Landspeeders are going to be lurking around to try and grab objectives in the last turn and will be prepared. "Theory-hammer" is usually a pejorative thrown around when people don't think that a given tactic works on the table-top as well as on paper (or in some someone's unexperienced imagination).

There's a reason only infantry can capture and hold ground in the real world, and Warhammer 40k has an analog: infantry can use cover. The Land Raider is an assault vehicle, it's use is assaulting and capturing objectives. It's also well-equipped to defeat enemy tanks and infantry units, and thanks to its size and armour it's a moving bunker. So long as you don't treat it like it's invincible then it can rumble forward and reliably place your squads where you want them.

Now if you just fling a Land Raider forward willy-nilly without support then pending an obliging opponent it will be demolished in short order by all the un-molested heavy weapons lying around. That's what Landspeeders, Bikes, Terminators, and other fast and hard-hitting yet (comparatively) fragile Space Marine units are for: molesting those threats to the Land Raider and its passengers so that they don't do unto you first what you must do unto them. The Land Raider also conveniently comes with weapons and wargear that allow it to give itself its own support while delivering its cargo and to make sure that it doesn't grind to an embarrassing halt when a glancing hit bounces of its hull. The Land Raider is often misused so people tend to underestimate it if they haven't seen it regularly.

Interestingly people seem to be successfully ignoring the alternative I propoed to using a Land Raider to deliver troops to objectives: the Drop Pod. Drop Podding is pretty safe since your troops spend at least one turn off the board where it's not possible to shoot at them, and they're more accurate than Terminators (well, teleport homers can make them about as accurate, but once you have that in position you might as well use the unit toting it to capture the objective). On the down side Drop Pods are not as accurate or reliable, you can't assault out of them, and once they've delivered their cargo they're pretty much free points for anyone available to blast them.

Nurglitch: I wasn't referring to your post...sorry.

If you have last turn, you can 'grab' any objective or contest it with stupid ease.

That's why in my tournaments, it's highest total number of scoring units that take objectives.

Infantry in the real world are useless in the open, just like in 40k. Of course, we have Smurfs to give everyone a feeling of safety. I find being the 4th guy in from the side makes me safest. Ok enough jesting.

The LR is easily eliminated on the current battlefield. Even with all the targets you listed, I'd still fire my lascannons at the LR until it was eliminated. Especially if it was carrying troops.

LR's do not support themselves. Thinking this is a fallacy on your part. They cannot fire all their weapons if they move, and they cannot deliver their troops any faster than the troops could themselves and still fire anything at all.

I don't underestimate LR's. I choose to ignore them, or destroy them. What army I'm playing has the deciding vote.

I don't believe in Drop pods to take objectives. They are usually in by turn 3, so that leaves 3 turns to shoot them.
I don't know what Drop Pods you are using, the DA ones are slightly less accurate but the Smurf ones are perfectly accurate. If you mean they deviate a little, yeah they do. Easily obviated if you place your pods correctly. Not saying you don't, but I've so far never had my pods not able to shoot something when they landed.

Nurglich, are you claiming that you can protect a land raider better than you can protect a land speeder? I agree that if the land raider is sent "willy nilly" into the guns of the enemy it is to be expected that it will meet it's untimely demise. But with all the anti-tank in GT lists, it is difficult to avoid them. I have the advantage of using pretty much the same list in multiple GT's to put forth my claim as statistically based. Statistically, my speeders survived as scoring units more than my land raider in my shooty vehicle based list and accounted for more VP's for many of the reasons Stelek pointed out in his post.

The main reason, however, is that I have had more success with the higher mobility and smaller blueprint of the speeder to protect it from enemy guns despite its fragile nature. The speeder can simply redeploy and hide better than the land raider. How can you argue that a 24" move in the last turn is less advantageous than a 12" move?

Also, on a point for point basis, hiding the speeders only takes away 150 points from the fighting list. Wheras hiding a tactical squad and a land raider isn't utilizing 450+ points. Big difference.

I don't know if there is a right or wrong answer, just that in my experience this season, the speeders were the better bang for my buck. Will I get rid of the land raider for next season? I don't know. But I will not get rid of any speeders.

Cypher037 wrote:You mean making three speeders three squadrons instead of one? That’s not looked down upon at all, it's just smart. Especially if they're Typhoons and not Tornados. Some people do consider a lot of Tornados cheese, but typhoons or regular speeders, never.

-Leo037

You should have heard one of my opponents from Baltimore. I had 2 typhoons and he balked that I didn't make it a full squadron and that my list was optimized. Well, maybe it was versus his army (orks) , but how many ork players did you see in this years circuit? It was the only one I faced in two years.

Stelek: Well damn, how am I supposed to work up some righteous indignation?

To work though: I'm not suggesting giving your Lascannons alternative targets, I'm suggesting shooting them first and either killing them or pinning them. Naturally one wants to avoid two situations: that either all weapons target the behemoth or none of them doe. Against some of them it stands a quite reasonable chance thanks to upgrades and wargear.

A Land Raider can support itself, like I said, so long as it is supporting itself rather than leading the attack. A unit that is leading the attack maximizes its use of weaponry against targets, a supporting unit simply lends only what's available.

It is not unknown for a Land Raider to spring forward its full movement, and then sit for a turn to freem any opposition that appears to take a shot at it before continuing on its way. If my Land Raider is shaken and there's not much opposition I let the Machine Spirit take over and grind forward with a potshot at the aggressors. If it is shaken and there's not much opposition, then it leaps forward again and something else shoots at the threat. If there's lots of threats and the Land Raider is not shaken, then it stays still and opens up on the appropriate threat. Doing this a Land Raider can support its own advance toward an objective, by leap-frogging according to lines of sight and damage to itself.

If a squad or two in Rhinos follows the Land Raider up, then all the better.

I don't say that Drop Pods are inaccurate. I say that they are more accurate than teleporting Terminators. Indeed their accuracy at landing where one wants them and on top of objectives is why I like to use them (and should get proper models for them!).

While I've mostly gotten lucky with them, which is to be reasonably expected, I'd rather have a unit assault whoever might be contesting an objective; shooting is alright, but my experience is that if you can shoot them than they can shoot you. If they can shoot you then they can either either pin you so they can pick you off at leisure and move in undisturbed (and pick off the Drop Pod as a freebee), or simply shoot your unit until it is dead (and then pick off the Drop Pod as a freebee).

dornsfist: Yes, I am. Unlike Landspeeders they can only be destroyed by anti-tank weapons, while Landspeeders can be destroyed by anti-tank and anti-infantry weapons, making them vulnerable to Deep Strike squads of all flavours. Landspeeders are a perfect target for Tactical squads. Landspeeders can be killed by Whirlwinds (amongst other things) and Land Raiders cannot be. Considering the apparent rarity of Whirlwinds this can be a rude surprise for people trying to hide Landspeeders around the board.

Hide a Landspeeder and the enemy often cannot destroy those points (unless they use Barrage weapons, Deep Strike squads, or their own fast-moving vehicles or troops). Hide a Land Raider and you save three times as many points from extinction. The value of a Land Raider isn't merely in what it can kill, but in its ability to ferry troops to assault objectives and deny its mass of points to the enemy.

While there may be no right or wrong answer here since we are discussing mere material (right or wrong depends on the dynamic between the players and how they play the game), there are conditions which advantage either side. Right now, in many people's opinion, Landspeeders are great objective grabbers because the wisdom of consensus favours units that are useful against tanks.

This means that armies employing fast skimmers can be very successful (Eldar, Dark Eldar, Tau, etc) because people expect to fight static Space Marines (possibly the least flexible army in the game). Around my gaming group people have noticed that fast skimmers are only effective when you ignore them in favour of other targets. While losing a prize unit to the big guns of a Predator or Vindicator may be demoralizing, sucking it up and killing the Landspeeder first means you can get down to killing those tanks without worrying about losing in the 6th to a vehicle that anti-infantry weapons can take down.

And that's the beauty of it, you don't 'waste' your anti-infantry weapons on Landspeeders and you don't 'waste' your anti-tank weapons on Landspeeders. Shelling them with Mortars or Lobbas or Whirlwinds or Shadow Weavers or Smart Missile Systems, or attacking them with Deep Strikers like Terminators, Chaos Terminators, Scourges, Swooping Hawks, Battlesuits, Storm Troopers, Immortals, Raveners, or simply attacking them with whichever troops are hanging around and leaving the tanks to the heavy support works!

And, perhaps naturally, a gaming environment that knows about fast skimmers and makes killing them a priority puts tanks a little further down the list. Of the Barrage weapons I describe none can hurt a Land Raider, despite being great at winkling Landspeeders out of hiding and pinning Space Marines.

Nurglitch wrote:There's a reason only infantry can capture and hold ground in the real world, and Warhammer 40k has an analog: infantry can use cover.

It’s got a lot do with flying an Apache over a crucial hill at the end of a long battle being pretty useless in terms of controlling that hill. In 40k a land speeder can fly over that important hill in the last few seconds of a game and be considered as holding that hill. It’s a crap rule that makes ultra-light vehicles excellent objective grabbers.

Changing the way objectives work would help in making land raiders and other transports a key part of objective taking, but as it is currently speeders are much cheaper and much more likely to hold the objective at the game's end.

Well, yeah, there's that too but that also has an equivalence in Warhammer 40k. A unit of infantry can control an objective without being sitting ducks. Let me explain how a Landspeeder can be a sitting duck even when models cannot fire at it. A Landspeeder flying around shooting at things exposes itself to fire, while a Landspeeder skulking around out of sight can do nothing but take potshots from Barrage weapons.

The rules don't make Landspeeders cheaper and more effective at capturing and holding objectives, the way people play with them and against them make them cheaper and more effective at capturing and holding objectives. Like I said, around my area people don't simply know how to deal with fast skimmers, people are paranoid about fast skimmers because they are fast and cheap.

Perhaps this is because we play lots of objective based games with victory conditions like capture 2/3 6"x6" terrain pieces and whatnot. Under such conditions not killing Landspeeders will lose someone the game, and Georgie Bush says: "Fool me once, shame on you, I don't get fooled again."

In my case it was more like fool me twelve times before I noticed that my Raiders tended to get shelled while the objectives were captured by Vypers, Landspeeders, Pirahnas, and Wraiths (okay, not light skimmers but a similar use). That's when I started using my Scourges as light vehicle hunters. When I started my Space Marine army I always brought a Whirlwind (proxied by a Rhino with a spare Cyclone on top of its hull to remind us).

Lots of good info and points in this thread.

IME speeders can do extremely well, though their utility as objective-grabbers is proportionate to the amount of size 3 area terrain (or tall solid non-area terrain) there is on the table. If you can’t keep them hidden when you need to, they’re often easy points.

As Dornsfist and Cypher037 noted, the fact that they’re cheap means that your army is less handicapped if you have to hide them. Hiding a landraider is fighting 250pts down.

Nurglitch has two great points that are very much consonant with my own experience- experienced players make a practice of hunting speeders down ASAP in objective games, and indirect fire weapons are a big problem for speeders and similar cheap fast objective-grabbers.

That said, indirect weapons are getting to be less and less of a factor over time. Chaos and Orks have both lost theirs, leaving IG and SM as the only possessors of long-ranged indirect, and Eldar with a couple of short-ranged options. Most Eldar armies focus on grav tanks in the heavy support section, which reduces the likelihood that you’ll see a D-cannon or Reaper Exarch with the indirect fire option (or a Vibrocannon, which while not indirect, fills a similar role). IG have lost the Griffon, leaving them only the Basilisk, which has a fairly large minimum guess range, allowing speeders (and similar units) to get in under that range and hide. The Whirlwind is still a solid option, and some people use it regularly, but the 4th edition change causing the hit to be at half strength if the center isn’t over the target makes it significantly less reliable even against AV10. Generally you’re looking at a 54% chance if getting a direct hit out of two shots. And then a 54% chance of getting at least a Glance from that hit. A single Whirlwind (assuming it shoots all game) will, on average, take out at least one speeder over the course of the game. But if the speeder can hide out of range or the Whirlwind gets knocked out after a couple of turns, it’s far from guaranteed to do the job.

All that said, as Nurglitch noted, there are several other types of units which can also take out speeders. But they do tend to expose themselves in the process. Whether it be opposing fast skimmers, deep-striking units, jump troops, or whatever, these units will usually risk being hit themselves in the process of getting to the enemy skimmer. But this is part of the tactical back and forth of the game.

I think the trouble with Landraiders is that they do too much mutally exclusively, and so cost a fortune for what they can actually accomplish.
Sure, they can more 12" forward and maybe live. If they are transporting something, killing a 250+ point tank AND possibly the unit inside is really desirable. If it is an assault unit, entangling them and then making them walk the rest of the way might well take them out of the game.
Shooting wise, they can only shoot a little if they move, or at one target if they don't, so anything not directly in front of them is getting only a fraction of the fire power. Plus all that transport space is getting wasted.
Plus, they are still a one hit vehicle. Even my Sisters love fighting them. Let them run forward; I have ripped up LR's with Sisters Repentia, no problem (about the only way to make the unit's points back.) Or dreadnoughts. Or meltas/lascannons/whatever. In a 2000 point game that LR with squad is ~20% of your points getting taken out/entanged and useless for a few turns.

If an LR had 2 structure points, ok. If it cost less but had no real guns, only transport capacity, great. If it had a lot of guns, and maybe could split fire, but no transport, ok. Just not the way it is it seems.
(And don't get me wrong, I think they look cool and I want one. Just not if I really want to win too.)

I have had great experience with my Landraider. In all the games that I have recently played int I lost on a single game to podding Space Wolves. This includes games played against top finishers at both Adepticon and the Baltimore GT. I can say with certainty that the Landraider 9/10 games will preform up to its expectations. The fact of the matter is the Landraider, supported by Predators and Las Plas Squads will be able to focus on and for the most part neutralize 50% of the threats that will target the land raider by the second turn. Once the Treats have been neutralized there is little to nothing that can be done by your opponent to open it up.

There are very few weapons in each army that can harm the Landraider and it is up to your to identify these weapons and focus fire on them.

For Example against Zilla there is only a single weapon that can harm a Landraider and that would be the venom cannon. Usually you will only see between 2 and 4 of these weapons and one of which will only be S8. These also can only Glance the Landraider making them a moderately effective weapon. I am not saying that they will do nothing to the Land Raider but just making a point that they are the largest threat you will have to deal wth when it comes to Nids (Barbed strangler is also a threat but are usually on the same monster). With Eldar you will get a 50/50 Split If you are against a Prism you will have some issue against anything else you should not need to worry about it. Traditional Mec Eldar will have a single unit of Fire Dragons in a Falcon. Just make sure they can't get within 12" of you and you are fine. Also Pop smoke the turn before they can to minimize the impact.

Once the Landraider is within position to off load its cargo the game should be locked in your favor.

Now Back on topic. The Speeder is a highly effective gun boat and objective taker. I however keep them in the thick of the fighting putting as much pressue on my opponent as I can. I also use them to force my opponent to keep falling back by Keeping them within 6" of a borken unit. Once the weapons on the Speader are no longer effective I will hide it until the last turn then move it to contest or capture an objective. They have yet to underpreform in any game.

A few points to the many raised:

Orks still have Lobbas. Not that I expect to see any, ever...

I run 2 FD + 1 FP in my Eldar army--Land Raiders are not serious threats to it as a result.

Barbed Stranglers are no real threat to a LR, they are only S8 max.

If you plan on hiding your LR, what you say makes sense against Gojira lists. If you aren't going to hide it, I have 3 Carnifexes that will shoot 6 shots at you. I'm more than happy to Glance you, I'll take any roll on the glance table vs a land raider.

1 LR with a squad of (insert name of anything that can go in a LR, here) is pretty meaningless in 40K. Every army I run can deal with 2 LR containing 2 SW squads, which I've found with the IC's they run are the most dangerous of all the LR combos you are likely to face.

Having multiple objectives in objective control scenarios, and having each objective requires more scoring units than the other guy has within range really opens up 40K.

Negativemoney, don't take this the wrong way but...

All of my armies bring down Speeders.

You see me, I see you....down they go.

I don't make them priorities in objective grabbing missions. I put units in the objectives and make the speeders come out to fire at me. Who cares if they have mobile speeders when the rest of the army is crippled?

I dunno, YMMV.

sebster wrote:

Nurglitch wrote:There's a reason only infantry can capture and hold ground in the real world, and Warhammer 40k has an analog: infantry can use cover.

It’s got a lot do with flying an Apache over a crucial hill at the end of a long battle being pretty useless in terms of controlling that hill. In 40k a land speeder can fly over that important hill in the last few seconds of a game and be considered as holding that hill. It’s a crap rule that makes ultra-light vehicles excellent objective grabbers.

Changing the way objectives work would help in making land raiders and other transports a key part of objective taking, but as it is currently speeders are much cheaper and much more likely to hold the objective at the game's end.

I never said it wasn't a crap rule.

You said only infantry can TAKE ground.

This is a layman's view, and it is incorrect.

Tanks and aircraft can take ground.

Only infantry can effectively hold it without risking your higher costed assets.

Land Raiders are stupid units in 40K. A throwback to bygone days. As soon ground vehicles can move 12" and fire, they'll be fine.

Till then, they suck and nothing we can do will fix that.

Negativemoney wrote:
For Example against Zilla there is only a single weapon that can harm a Landraider and that would be the venom cannon.

Three weapons. Venom cannon, Barbed strangler (Granted, not much of a threat) and warp blast.

Land Raiders may be stupid in Stelek's opinion, but they certainly seem to work well for Negative Money and I.

Hey fellas, this is all interesting and please continue, but at least give me your response to my original question about the factor in GT lists. So far, Cypher is the only one. I would be interested to hear your opinions. Thanks.

No, this would not be looked down on.

I think naked predators are a better choice for objective grabbing in general, or with 5pt extra armor perhaps, and they can put out firepower and soak up marine killing guns, for not a lot more than a Tornado.

Speeders are kinda hit or miss like Mannahnin said. Dependent on lots of terrain.

Oh sorry. To the original guy:

Nope, they're mildly annoying so nobody will care if you bring 3 except newbies who haven't run into it before being used to battleforce box set armies.

Hope that answers your Q.