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I was just thinking about it, and in the current metagame, ion cannons might be worth it on a hammerhead (You definitely want 1-2 rails though).

Right now the metagame is dominated by two armies - Mech Eldar and Godzilla.

Against the dangerous parts of both armies (Dakkafexes (And any non-2+ save MC) and Grav Tanks), the ion cannon is the better buy.

In my gaming group when Tau first came out everyone always took the Rail Cannon due to it's versatility. However, one of my friends has been bringing the Ion Cannon now and has been quite pleased with his results. I don't play Tau so I can't really say, but I know he would rather have the Ion on his Hammerhead and Rail Cannons on his Broadsides.

It's rock-paper-scissors.

Broadsides get owned by anyone with Lascannons.

I prefer the 2 railguns not so much for the heavy AT, but because they can put out templates and are very useful to my army that way. Ion Cannons just don't it for me.

I just went through this train of thought the other day with the two people I primarly play being SM and eldar. Since my list have evolved to hybrid tau I really liked the idea of dropping falcons with ease (2 ion heads and TLmps).
Since we build all commers lists, as soon as I came up against an ork list I was really hating not rocking the rail heads. Also if a land raider or monolith come down I really dont have a way of dealing with the effectivly with the ions. They are great tanks but I think the versatility of the rail not to mention the fire it draws, way over powers the ion.

Ion heads work great as long as you already have 3 railguns on the field. You also must pick your target carefully. Vehicle squadrons, high T models etc. Where it can really hurt is when combined with markerlights.

There are times when I wished I had a second submunition template, but my one ion head that I take works pretty good for me. It saves quite a few points and works well when you optimize its targets.

Railhead
two broadsides
Ionhead.

I'll jump in to agree with Stelek here.

Ion cannons are not that good at "dropping falcons with ease" - at best you're spending 150 pts to prevent a mediocre shooting tank from shooting for most of the game.

The S6 AP4 template on a hammerhead is just too valuable to leave at home in my book. It's anti-ork, anti-landraider, anti-monolith, and the S6 template is even good at killing marines (in cover, better than a S7 3 shot gun is in a lot of circumstances).

If I didn't take Railheads, I would take Skyrays or Broadsides with shield drones.

Didn't say it would drop falcons with ease, but it is better vs falcons and godzilla nids than a railgun. I also was talking about taking 1 ion and 1-2 railheads. You don't want to totally ignore the only Long Range AT that a tau list has.

I love my Sniper Drones. They aren't the best AT in the world, but they give me 9 more 36" S6 shots and if people want to kill them, they get sucked into the Crisis Suits range. Usually 2 railheads + 10 suits + piranhas + markerlight FW teams + the sniper drones sees off mech lists pretty well.

I love my Sniper Drones. They aren't the best AT in the world, but they give me 9 more 36" S6 shots and if people want to kill them, they get sucked into the Crisis Suits range. Usually 2 railheads + 10 suits + piranhas + markerlight FW teams + the sniper drones sees off mech lists pretty well.

Way to stay on topic...

Anyway, I'm gunna have to jump on the railgun bandwagon (or rather reinforce my presence on the bandwagon). 3+ save MCs, and marines out of cover are the only things the Ioncannon is better at killing than the railgun. But, even so, the the railgun is by no means bad at killing marines out of cover or MCs. Additionally, mid S/low AP, firepower is the domain of crisis suits. A domain they hold rather effectively.

Oh, I forgot, the Ioncannon is also better at killing low AV vehicles, but again, the railgun is good at that too. And again crisis suits are better at it than either tank anyway.

To go back to the original topic, I don't think the meta is strong enough, nor is Tau weak enough against the meta, that it's worth it to take Ionheads instead of Railheads. It's also not worth the sacrificed effectiveness against most other armies.

However, if you want a list that will do better with comp/sports scores, people smile upon mixing up your tanks, and not spamming the best choice. For this the Ionhead is good because it's by no means a bad tank-- it's just worse than the railhead.

-Leo037

Sigh. Yeah, I was on topic. So here's my 2 cents for your dig.

Comp was on subject, how? GT's don't use comp anymore, been that way...since 03?

Sportsmanship dings for having 2 hammerheads is on topic, how? Not to mention that's being a jackass since sportsmanship is supposed to be about the person, not their army.

That's why they deleted comp, it's too subjective. What one might consider unfair another might not.

So, nonsense aside, let's stay on topic:

Maybe I mentioned the Sniper Drones because they are another heavy support choice...and you have to consider everything in that slot in a discussion about tau heavy vehicles.

If you are bringing Ion Cannons for their light vehicle killing power or anti-marine power or their anti-MC power, you can spend less than twice the cost and get essentially invulnerable gun units that offer 3x the shots + markerlight utility and 1 less S. Still great for marine killing, and still ok against vehicles and MC. You also get 3 units so you can fire at 3 seperate targets. Great for picking off lone marine weapon troopers, PF sargents, bikers, wounded MC's, and lone vehicles like LS.

If you want to only consider heavy vehicles, well that's fine and all but you'll not get very far before the discussion ends.

I prefer using my hammerheads S6 template shot against light vehicle squadrons. Not too hard to get hits on 2 of 'em, and double up if they're open topped (which most are). So they're S6 instead of 7. if I can get 4 hits, I will. The target you can't get multiple hits on, the usual lone speeder...well I'll usually fire anti-infantry firepower at it and zap a marine unit with the railgun.

I know comp isn't part of GT scoring, but many people view cheesy lists as bad sportsmanship. Whether or not this is correct is irrelevant, because people will mark your scores down anyway.

But, back on topic . Theres two thing you overlooked about the Ionhead vs Sniper Drones. First mobility, Being able to move 12 and fire is HUGE-- but everyone know that and why so I won't get into it. Second, the ion head does have two burst cannons y'know, which you just seemed to disregard completely. 6 str 5 BS4 shots that can fire at a separate target from the Ion Cannon are nothing to be sneezed at.

I prefer using my hammerheads S6 template shot against light vehicle squadrons. Not too hard to get hits on 2 of 'em, and double up if they're open topped (which most are). So they're S6 instead of 7. if I can get 4 hits, I will. The target you can't get multiple hits on, the usual lone speeder...well I'll usually fire anti-infantry firepower at it and zap a marine unit with the railgun.

This is not a very economical use of force. Tau have sooooo many things capable of demolishing light vehicle squadrons, that to shoot at them with a gun that has far more utility shooting at other targets is a gigantic waste. The fireknife suit was practically designed to destroy light tanks. This isn't to say that shooting a submunition shot at an opentoped vehicle squadron is an awful idea, it just shouldn't be what you prefer to use.

-Leo037

I use SMS. I don't like marines hiding LS on me, and I like them firing meltas and plasmas (x2) at short range on me.

Mobility is great, being immobile and unseen with 3 units having 3 shots + 1 markerlight is I think better than 1 ion tank.

Last thing, there is no 'cheese' in 40K. Don't go to GT's and expect your FLGS environment. It's a tournament not anything else...

Stelek wrote:I use SMS. I don't like marines hiding LS on me, and I like them firing meltas and plasmas (x2) at short range on me.

Mobility is great, being immobile and unseen with 3 units having 3 shots + 1 markerlight is I think better than 1 ion tank.

Last thing, there is no 'cheese' in 40K. Don't go to GT's and expect your FLGS environment. It's a tournament not anything else...

I'm not going to get into the cheese-no cheese debate, but I'll just say this: If people think your list is cheesy, whether or not it's justified, a great many will mark down your sportsmanship scores.

If we're gunna compare these units we should do it on a fairly even point value. Stop comparing 210 points to 130. Of course the 210 points are going to be more powerful (but not necessarily more cost effective). And nightfight does not equate unseen, it just means things need to be a little closer to shoot at you than their deployment zones.

-Leo037

What's 210 points? What's 130 points?

Sniper Drone teams are 240 points for all 3.

Ion Cannon Hammerhead with MT, TL, DL, and 2 Burst Cannons is 135. If you're not running SMS, your vehicle is alot less of a threat in my experience. It's just a devilfish with more guns and the same crappy range on 2/3 of them, and LOS restrictions. Now if you do have SMS, that's 145 points. Oh and if you tell me TL isn't standard, let's not keep talking, ok?

I am sure somewhere in here I said 'for less than twice the points'. You want a more direct comparison? Fine, buy two sniper drone teams. 160 vs 135. Is that better?

Stelek wrote:
I prefer using my hammerheads S6 template shot against light vehicle squadrons. Not too hard to get hits on 2 of 'em, and double up if they're open topped (which most are). So they're S6 instead of 7. if I can get 4 hits, I will. The target you can't get multiple hits on, the usual lone speeder...well I'll usually fire anti-infantry firepower at it and zap a marine unit with the railgun.

I suggest you go back and read the rules for templates and vehicles.

skyth wrote:

Stelek wrote:
I prefer using my hammerheads S6 template shot against light vehicle squadrons. Not too hard to get hits on 2 of 'em, and double up if they're open topped (which most are). So they're S6 instead of 7. if I can get 4 hits, I will. The target you can't get multiple hits on, the usual lone speeder...well I'll usually fire anti-infantry firepower at it and zap a marine unit with the railgun.

I suggest you go back and read the rules for templates and vehicles.

Sigh, you beat me to it.

As for the topic at hand, I love Ionheads and wish I could take them in the list, but I think they just don't fit well enough with the rest of the army choices. Tau NEED railguns, and the hammerhead version is so handy...it's mobile, tough, can engage any target....it's hard to find a better deal. If there were some way to get ion cannons in other parts of the army, like a razorback version of the devilfish, that would be neat.

Why? I know how the rules work.

I'm guessing you don't, or you don't understand what I was saying...or I could care less after that really.

You were saying that you could hurt two vehicles with one strength 6 large blast, which is impossible under the current rules.

Yeah, since the str 6 is halved to 3 against vehicles not under the center, and nothing has a AV of 9, the submunition round stinks as anti-vehicle.

Whether or not ion-cannons or railguns are the better choice depends on the rest of your list. If you’ve taken some broadsides then another railgun might not be all that necessary. If you haven’t got much in the way of St 7 or St 8 guns, the ion-head fills the role nicely.

But with my current list I’ve got a good range of mid-strength, good AP weapons between my crisis suits and sniper drones (yes… I know, but they work well for me). I don’t need the ion-cannon shots. But as often as not I need a really, really big gun to cap an enemy tank, and the railhead fills the role perfectly. When there aren’t any tanks to kill, sub-munition rounds are nice too.

At the end of the day, the railhead isn’t objectively a better tank. It’s just that Tau have access to so many weapon with St 6, 7 or 8 the ion-cannon isn’t an important part of as many lists as the railgun. But in certain lists I can see the ion-cannon being the better option.

Oh sorry, I see the confusion. I run dual railheads lol but didn't quite say what I meant to there.

Two railheads vs a squadron of open tops gives you 4 hits. I usually only do it if I can zap infantry that are near said vehicles, hoping to blow 1 vehicle up and get even more damage. Killa Kans are great for this.

I suppose penitent engines would be too, but I've never really seen anyone run them.

In my experience you take the ion head to save points. you take the railhead if you want versatility and AT power. although i would take the twin-linked plasma cannon hammerhead from forgeworld over the ion cannon as it does basically the same job, is higher strength, better AP and of course twin linked.

A weapon adds +1 to the damage roll vs an open-topped vehicle. A scatter laser shooting a raider is still S6, just more dangerous if causes an effect.

Normally its better to go for only one vehicle with a submunition template, as all hits vs vehicle squadrons are assigned before the damage roll is taken. If a squadon is hit by lower S hits it is possible to distribute these to concentrate the higher S hit on a single vehicle.

If we suppose a Railgun submunition strikes my squadron of three open-topped sentinals and covers two of them, then i will take 2 S6 hits and 2 S3 hits - i will assign both S6 hits to one vehicle and one S3 to the second and third vehicle each. My opponent has failed to achieve his objective of taking out two vehicles, and I get to force him to roll to hurt the one vehicle to which i have assigned hits, rather than taking a guaranteed penetrating hit.

If the template only covers the single vehicle, i will have to assign hits to two vehicles in the squadron.

Returning to the original topic, I think its been pretty much establish the standard load-out Tau is 2 Asssides, 1 Ionhead, 1 Railhead.

There's a good case for swapping out the over-costed Railhead for either 2 more Asssides or another 130pt Ionhead (as the Ionhead is pointed about right for the codex)

Way, waaay OT, but Torgoch I notice you have taken a Farsight list to the last two GTs. Any comments on how it did, or a list? If I had a bigger gaming budget I'd seriously consider starting a Farsight army.

There is a battle report from the 2007 Heat on here. I've ditched the railhead since then as they suck.

Heat 3 2008 was probably tougher than the 2007 final, so i'm pleased with that position. I think there were 170 entrants. No softscores (painting, sportsmanship, comp etc) at all. Battle points only.

torgoch wrote:I've ditched the railhead since then as they suck.

Care to explain?

-Leo037

Stelek wrote:Oh sorry, I see the confusion. I run dual railheads lol but didn't quite say what I meant to there.

Two railheads vs a squadron of open tops gives you 4 hits. I usually only do it if I can zap infantry that are near said vehicles, hoping to blow 1 vehicle up and get even more damage. Killa Kans are great for this.

I suppose penitent engines would be too, but I've never really seen anyone run them.

Vs the Penitents for example you are always better off shooting the rail gun ammo instead of submunitions.
Vs AV 11, opentopped.

Str6 Ap not 1.
66% chance to hit, two hits at st6 needs 5+ so two chances at 33%. Check, but I think that is 43.56% chance to penetrate or glance.

Str10 Ap1
66% chance to hit, one hit guaranteed to pen. So, 66% to Pen, which on a penitent or other open topped is a 66% chance to kill if I recall.

Granted, if I ever see you in a game I hope you forget what I just wrote, but there it is

I field rail gun heads. More options with the template. I can see fielding one rail gun head and one ion head if you have broadsides.

Well Wehrkind, I like making my opponents squirm. Often as not, yes I can kill something with a direct shot but if I can have the *chance* at killing two things I'll often take it.

Doing the unexpected is a tactic unto itself, after all.

Some days I take the guarantee, some days I take the risk.

Makes me a more dangerous opponent, I think.