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In Army Lists, there is a list someone posted regarding running huge (15+) CSM squads.

It seems in general that this is one thing that CSMs can do that loyalists can't. Making "supersized" units that are hard to dislodge and represent big threats to an opponent.

Stelek started a (IMO) great thread in the AL section RE a standard chaos template, and while a lot of the principles, hold, I think this might be a way to branch from that philosophy and build something unique for chaos.

Running a lot of super-sized squads probably isn't the best path to take. A lot of Horde squads of CSM aren't going to do a lot for you. It seems that the right list would have one or two huge squads and some min-maxed squads filling out various roles, building around and supporting the huge squads you have.

Some thoughts:

20 man raptor squads? Give them Mark of Tzeentch, and they will be tough nut to crack. Worse yet, you have to crack it, and quick or they'll be swarming all over your lines.

large plague marine units ( which Stelek notes in the Chaos Template List) are nasty. Played a game against the PMs and they were nigh impossible to stop in the advance. And that was units of 6-8. Double or triple that, and you get a slow juggernaut of a unit that's not really going anywhere, even if you say "pretty please?"

large zerker units. The only way I think they're going to work, unfortunately. This is a prime unit for building with lash to ensure earlier assaults. With a properly threatening backline (3 units of oblits, chosen with heavies), and Assault support up front (lash DP FTW!) the berserkers have enough bodies to take shots and still be a viable assault threat.

10 man terminator squads, in my testing, are pretty gross. They can take fire, give fire, assault and recieve assault very well. Weaknesses to plasma (though not that weak if you go MoT), but every marine has a soft spot for that.

So that's my initial salvo. Look forward to hearing your thoughts.

I have played against a 10 man terminator squad. I didn't know that ten was not a standard number. (I don't play any forces that use them.) They were indeed a VERY tough nut to crack. Not impossible, but the took a lot of fire and still kept moving. I did get some good blasts with a fex that had a barbed strangler and they were semi-bunched together. If it wasn't for that, I think I would have taken a pretty serious beating from that squad alone. Instead I took a beating from all the other squads around it.

Rule of small numbers - taking small amounts of bad units has little effect

Rule of large numbers - taking large amounts of bad units has worse effect

All the ideas you listed are possible and more viable with smaller units. Par Exampla death guard. If a 10 man unit is tough to crack then 2, 5 man units with double the amount of special weapons will be harder to deal with and have more bite. The same goes for raptors, beserkers, noise marines, 1k sons.

Also in a chaos list anything over ten men can't use any sort of transport and is doomed to walking. Lastly there are plenty of tarpits that can hold a 20 man unit just as easily as they can a 5 man unit.

I have played against a bunch of large squads before, and they always have some kind of problems.

As a general rule you either want to shoot good, or assault good. Since you have only one large squad, your special/heavy weapons will be limited. I wonder the max size of Havocs and Chosen are? It might be worthwhile to take a huge squad of them and you can load them up with special weapons.

As far as combat goes, they have the problem with getting into assault. Because they are a large squad they can’t take a transport, and are moving 6” across the board which means that you will take a ton of fire, and then your opponent can just move away. Plague marines can cross the table ok, because they can take a ton of fire unless it is a battle cannon, but they are not putting out much fire. Thousand Sons can shoot well and benefit from large squads because of the price of the Sorcerer, but if they get into assault, they are in a lot of trouble.

Raptors on the other hand are quite formidable. In the semi-finals of the ‘Ardboyz in Los Angeles I fought an army with 3 squads of 20 Raptors. I only won because I was playing Eldar and I was able to counter it’s mobility for the most part.

To summ up: Big units that can reach out and touch people are good. big units that can't get there suck.

Raptors are always better than CSM's for assault - they move twice as fast for 1/3 more points

I don't know where you guys play.

You seem to have this fixation on more special weapons.

Yet you tout the ability of the Eldar to deny VP's.

You think 5 Nurgle marines are going to deny anyone VP's?

You think Rhino-based Chaos armies are good?

Chaos isn't about speed or mobility. Just because other armies are, doesn't mean you have to be or in fact can be.

You say Chaos can't get into combat, but in other threads you tout the uberness of Lash to do so.

So which is it? They can't get there? Or they can?

Last time I checked, objectives are placed in the middle of the board. You talk alot about taking objectives last turn, but if there's only one objective and you can't kill 24 Plague Marines to get all 3 of those squads below half; and the 2 DP supporting them down to their last wound...how are you taking the objective from the Chaos player?

In quarters missions, it takes precisely 3 turns to get into your quarter. Again, you gotta kill 24 plague marines and (wound) 2 DP to prevent them from scoring your quarter. Since the PM are immune to most things but ML and Lascannons, what army is going to crack that many PM without resorting to assault? IG? They better kill those DP, cause Nurgle's Rot absolutely destroys IG gunline armies.

So I say to you that the Flex that you are used to with Smurf armies isn't applicable to Chaos armies because GW got rid of the Flex you are basing your assumptions on.

Personally I love seeing small Chaos squads, esp with Rhinos, on the board. The reality is, small is bad in Chaos if you want the unit to survive long enough to actually DO anything. What happens to your 5 man squads when they limp across the board and get assaulted/rapid fired away?

Large units are slow, and the basic troops better be able to survive (TS, PM) or keep up fire (TS, EC) or be credible CC threats (PM, EC) AND have enough bodies to absorb 5 deaths from uber characters and still kill them. Otherwise, you'll get rolled from one end of your army to the next by Flyrants, Librarians, DP's, Phoenix Lords and there are so many special characters out there now it's sick if they get into you.

Bigger is best in my experience. This isn't the old Chaos. This is the new.

interesting. There's a definitive split here between small and big here.

I'll follow up for people on the "Fastfood" side of things: how big is too big? How large should you go?

To people who say keep it small, what kind of force composition do you feel is ideal?

Sorry if I'm coming off as some discussion moderator, but I'm interested in where this thread will lead.

Stelek I like you, I really do, but you make my head hurt sometimes.
In the case of troops you rarely ever see anyone need all 6 troop slots. So say I want to take 30 DG and 30 raptors? There is no benefit (iirc) to taking 2 squads of 15. It limits my maneuverability, special weapon options, and the number of AC i can take. If I were taking EC again if I took multiple small squads I could get more blastmasters, ect. As for scoring purposes, lets take a look at death guard.

-Two six man squads-
Each squad can be given 2 special weapons which increases my killing power and three members from each unit must be killed before both units are non scoring (Note that I can also take multiple objectives)

A 12 man squad has less killing potential is more likely to encounter problems moving, can only hold one objective. As before you must kill 6 men before the unit is non scoring.

That said I agree with you that chaos doesn't need to play like other armies. But there isn't alot of benefit to taking super-sized squads unless you FOC is already full.

gamefiend wrote:interesting. There's a definitive split here between small and big here.

I'll follow up for people on the "Fastfood" side of things: how big is too big? How large should you go?

To people who say keep it small, what kind of force composition do you feel is ideal?

Sorry if I'm coming off as some discussion moderator, but I'm interested in where this thread will lead.

since individual marines are unimpressive (save for 1ksons and emperors children) marine squads tend to become "platforms" for special and heavy weapons. Every extra member past the bare minimum becomes an ablative wound.
It's different in the case of units like oblith's or 1ksons. In these units every member increase the units overall killing potential. With units like deathguard, an extra member doesn't bring a lot of killing power.

I think 12-15 is the right size. It's manageable as far as movement goes, and it's a pain to assault into.

You occasionally lose a bolter for shooting, but putting a tac squad (plus) onto something is still pretty good shooting.

I'm curious, gdurant, how are plague marines 'unimpressive'?

You can run small squads if you want to, gdurant. You think the Chaos units are special weapon delivery squads as a primary purpose.

I don't think they are, given they aren't exactly mobile it's merely a bonus or an added threat/capability. It's not like you can shake'n'bake them in a Rhino and hope they live.

You can dump a ton of points into alot of small squads if you want to, just to get 2x the special weapons on the board.

Problem is, you'll get shot into uselessness fairly easily and if you dump points into unit leaders you get few bodies just 3 people out of 6 you can't lose without losing efficiency?

You are also easily swept away by assault, esp after you lose a couple guys. Even by non-assault oriented armies.

How is it good? You can't run Chaos like you used to. Doing so leads to defeat.

Stelek wrote:I'm curious, gdurant, how are plague marines 'unimpressive'?

They are tough as nails, and you real have two choices:

1. Take a Plague Master and stick them in assault.
2. Take a couple of special weapons and get in a close range fire fight.
3. A combined approach.

Now to do either of these they need to hoof it. rhino's are flaming deathtraps and lashes are overrated. So They spend a while doing nothing. Now if I'm playing against tyranids i okay because the enemy is coming to me (woohoo) of course they're coming in with rending attacks... so much for increased toughness and FNP....

Now if I find a situation where short rang firefighting can work then they work pretty decently. But taking a larger squad only gives more bolter fire when I'd really enjoy some more plasma shots (3+ armor and FNP, forget about gets hot). In the end Death Guard end up being furniture. They don't kill alot of things but they sit around and look nice on the board. They can tarpit, but in the end regular marines could do that.

So in sumary
They are hard to kill
thats about it



If they were hard to kill and all carried bolters that ignor 3+ armor....... oh wait nevermind

Stelek wrote:You can run small squads if you want to, gdurant. You think the Chaos units are special weapon delivery squads as a primary purpose.

I don't think they are, given they aren't exactly mobile it's merely a bonus or an added threat/capability. It's not like you can shake'n'bake them in a Rhino and hope they live.

I don't use rhino's, never said I did and in fact I denounced them.

One strawman down

Stelek wrote: can dump a ton of points into alot of small squads if you want to, just to get 2x the special weapons on the board.

Problem is, you'll get shot into uselessness fairly easily and if you dump points into unit leaders you get few bodies just 3 people out of 6 you can't lose without losing efficiency?
Again I did the math for you, you have to kill the amount of units in two 6 man squads as you would in one 12 man to render them unable to capture objectives.
They are fearless right? So they won't run even if I have 4 men left all with plasma they will do more than your 12 man squad when it gets widdled down to 4 guys.

Again plague Marines a difficult to kill but when we're talking two 5 mans or one 10 man, both units will die just as err slowly
As you like to say you thinking in a vacuum. I have ten marines, you have ten marines. Mine can split fire, yours can't. If we get hit by 6 lascannons you lose 6 guys I lose 5.

And I didn't say I run plague champions on every unit, but again I have that option.

[quote=Stelek are also easily swept away by assault, esp after you lose a couple guys. Even by non-assault oriented armies.

How is it good? You can't run Chaos like you used to. Doing so leads to defeat.

The thing you're forgetting GD, is that special weapons and aspiring chumps cost points.

If you buy:
2 x 6 plague marines with plasmaguns

vs.
1 x 12 plague marines with plasmaguns

You're paying for two plasmaguns

When you kill six marines from either group, there are still six plasmaguns. the difference occurs when you kill 10 marines.

scenario one:
You lose 1 squad (168 or whatever vps)
1/2 of squad two (84 or whatever)
Down 250ish points, still have two plasmaguns

scenario two:
Lose 1/2 vps for one squad
Down about 150pts, still have two plasmaguns


-

That doesn't seem like a huge difference until you operate under this idea that:

1) Plaguemarines have to move to get to an objective.
2) Plaguemarines have gak range
3) Therefore: Plaguemarines rate to be shot up before they get to the objective
4) Plaguemarinse rate to not do any real damage before they get to the objective.

So If you operate under this idea, the bigger squad has an advantage in that it loses victory points at a slower rate, and avoids paying for plasmaguns it is unlikely to get to use.

It should be fairly common that when you take two squads of six plaguemarines, you will lose at least one squad before it gets to fire (at anything, at all). so paying for those plasmaguns is often going to be useless.

I am not going to say that's definitively coming down for large plaguemarine squads, but the difference gets even more dramatic when you look at more typical configuration:

Team A
2 x 8 man squad with aspiring champion and 2 plasmaguns (@ about 500 pts )

Team B
1 x 18 man squad with aspiring champion and 2 plasmaguns (@ about 500 points)

After 8 marines die in Team A, before you even get to the objective, you've lost around 250 points. After 8 marines die in Team B, you have lost zero points.

After 4 marines die in team A, you lose 125pts or so, and lose zero in Team B.

LS said it better.

Again plague Marines a difficult to kill but when we're talking two 5 mans or one 10 man, both units will die just as err slowly
As you like to say you thinking in a vacuum. I have ten marines, you have ten marines. Mine can split fire, yours can't. If we get hit by 6 lascannons you lose 6 guys I lose 5.

Actually, you're both likely to lose 6.
Unless you're playing an idiot, or the 5-man squad being shot at is RIGHT ON TOP of the enemy 9who is a non-assault army), no good general is going to put 6 Lascannon shots into a unit of 5 marines.
No unit I know of gets 6 LC's in one unit. You have to have, at least, 2 for that.
If your opponent gets... say... 3 wounds from his LC Devastators on ONE unit of 5, he'd be an idiot to waste a squad of 3 more at it. He has it at non-scoring. now he's going to try the same at your other 5-man squad.... it he has any sense, anyway.

Then, he'll overwhelm you with small arms fire.


Eric

So when 18 plage marines get to the objective and do nothing thats better?

Stelek wrote:I don't know where you guys play.

Up to 3 months ago I played in a couple of RTTs a month in So. California from Canyon Country to San Diego. Now I play in RTTs from Jacksonville to Tampa. I also last year I played in events as far away as an RTT in Salem, OR, to Adepticon in Chicago, and the Baltimore GT.

Unlike others who just play in one store in Utah.

You seem to have this fixation on more special weapons.

Yes I do. A unit has to have a “role”. If it does not have a role, then it has to “get it’s points back”. If you have a 500 point unit, it has to kill something or it is just 500 points running around.

Yet you tout the ability of the Eldar to deny VP's.

No army denies points better.

You think 5 Nurgle marines are going to deny anyone VP's?

Depends on how big of a threat they are. No one will shoot at 5 guys just walking around, so yes (and make them 6 guys to help deny points).

You think Rhino-based Chaos armies are good?

Maybe…but I always like a few rhinos. They have a lot of roles from screening troops, to movement, to tank shocking.

Chaos isn't about speed or mobility. Just because other armies are, doesn't mean you have to be or in fact can be.

You like static shooting armies. Some people see the value of mobility.

You say Chaos can't get into combat, but in other threads you tout the uberness of Lash to do so.

I don’t use the Lash, so this is not aimed at me, but Lash is a crutch that will not always be there.

So which is it? They can't get there? Or they can?

Beats me.

Last time I checked, objectives are placed in the middle of the board. You talk alot about taking objectives last turn, but if there's only one objective and you can't kill 24 Plague Marines to get all 3 of those squads below half; and the 2 DP supporting them down to their last wound...how are you taking the objective from the Chaos player?

My rhino will tank shock you off of it! See, and here you are saying that rhinos suck. My 30 point little tank just nullified your huge 500 point unit! Or a Falcon would be better because it is a scoring unit.

And objectives are placed all over the board. So the most that you are grabbing is one, where several squads can hold several objectives

In quarters missions, it takes precisely 3 turns to get into your quarter. Again, you gotta kill 24 plague marines and (wound) 2 DP to prevent them from scoring your quarter. Since the PM are immune to most things but ML and Lascannons, what army is going to crack that many PM without resorting to assault? IG? They better kill those DP, cause Nurgle's Rot absolutely destroys IG gunline armies.

In quarters missions you can hold only one table quarter with a large squad (and it will usually be contested by my tiny little 5 man squad).

So I say to you that the Flex that you are used to with Smurf armies isn't applicable to Chaos armies because GW got rid of the Flex you are basing your assumptions on.

I am not sure what flexing is.

Personally I love seeing small Chaos squads, esp with Rhinos, on the board. The reality is, small is bad in Chaos if you want the unit to survive long enough to actually DO anything. What happens to your 5 man squads when they limp across the board and get assaulted/rapid fired away?

I like 8 man units myself. But 5 in a rhino have there uses. You wait until the orks or tyranids or whatever to get close and just before they hit your lines you drive up in your rhino get out and lay down a flamer template and rapid fire!

Large units are slow, and the basic troops better be able to survive (TS, PM) or keep up fire (TS, EC) or be credible CC threats (PM, EC) AND have enough bodies to absorb 5 deaths from uber characters and still kill them. Otherwise, you'll get rolled from one end of your army to the next by Flyrants, Librarians, DP's, Phoenix Lords and there are so many special characters out there now it's sick if they get into you.

Just the opposite is true. You want small squads so they will die off and then you can shoot them. If you take a huge squads, the only thing that can hurt dreadnoughts, Wraithlords, Flyrants etc. is the powerfist. You can tie up one large squad for a long time with the right unit.

Bigger is best in my experience. This isn't the old Chaos. This is the new.

Bigger is not better.

gamefiend wrote:
I'll follow up for people on the "Fastfood" side of things: how big is too big? How large should you go?

To people who say keep it small, what kind of force composition do you feel is ideal?

I like 8 guys, but anything between 6-10 is ok.

gdurant wrote:So when 18 plage marines get to the objective and do nothing thats better?

LOL, Now I didn't say that.
Honestly, I don't have a dog in this race.

I agree and disagree with both of you. I'm more of a moderate voice.

I definitely see the wisdom in your tactics. More special weapons and more targets and whatnot. Then again, Stelek has a point about survivability of the unit as a whole.

Personally, I don't care for 5-strong units. It's just not enough bodies for me. I won't play less than 6 and don't care for less than 8. Eight is my favorite #, with the occasional 10. I think 12 (or more) is too big, yet I see the value in his explanation.

I think the problem is that the 2 camps in this have 2 different styles. Neither style is invalid, except to the one opposing it. Chaos is a very versatile list, barring a few worthless units, and a tough list can be assembled numerous different ways. It depends on what you put with it.

The problem with "Theoryhammer," as I've seen it, is that those discussing opposing sides tend to discuss things in a vaccuum. I don't care what one person thinks about 1 unit of 12 vs the other person's 2x units of 6. I care about how it works in the army. 1 @ 12 might work in his builds better than 2 @ 6... and vice versa.

What I'd like to see is the list these units would be in. If you're playing an identical list, barring these models, then they could be evenly weighed against each other.

If I had to play "Vaccuumhammer," I'd have to choose the larger unit, due to the survivability factor of the individual units involved, though.


Eric

gamefiend wrote:20 man raptor squads? Give them Mark of Tzeentch, and they will be tough nut to crack. Worse yet, you have to crack it, and quick or they'll be swarming all over your lines.

Large Raptor Squads are good. Large shooty squads have the disadvantage that they all have to shoot the same target, this doesn't apply to Raptor squads. Large squads also help with leadership problems and you save points from adding marks to Raptor, CSM and Terminator squads.

gamefiend wrote:
large plague marine units ( which Stelek notes in the Chaos Template List) are nasty. Played a game against the PMs and they were nigh impossible to stop in the advance. And that was units of 6-8. Double or triple that, and you get a slow juggernaut of a unit that's not really going anywhere, even if you say "pretty please?"

"largish" say 10 to 14, has an advantage over 6 to 8, in that they have more bodies in close combat, which is always good. 6 to 8 you start getting into min/maxing, you also get more special weapons, it depends what you want to do with them. That said with Fearless and FNP a 6 man squad is still a very effective tar pit, even in close combat.

gamefiend wrote:
large zerker units. The only way I think they're going to work, unfortunately. This is a prime unit for building with lash to ensure earlier assaults. With a properly threatening backline (3 units of oblits, chosen with heavies), and Assault support up front (lash DP FTW!) the berserkers have enough bodies to take shots and still be a viable assault threat.

I think zerkers are very points efficient, they're also very slow and I don't know if I would prefer them over raptors, for their points. Especially if the Raptors have a character tucked inside. If I took them (which I've been thinking of, not that I actually play Chaos) I would take a moderate 10 to 14 man squad, 20 would be overkill I think. Although via redundancy 20 would be a very viable threat, a reasonably low points very deadly core to build an army around. Furious charge gives them an edge though, and your opponent might nullify it by charging first.

gamefiend wrote:
10 man terminator squads, in my testing, are pretty gross. They can take fire, give fire, assault and recieve assault very well. Weaknesses to plasma (though not that weak if you go MoT), but every marine has a soft spot for that.

10 man squads get great use out of marks of nurgle and tzeentch and it's the only way to take two reapers if that suits. They're not fearless, either the more bodies the better.

After re-reading your initial post what you say is that you think one or two 20 man squads is something you can build an army around. I think this is true for zerkers and raptors, but not Terminators, their leadership problems make them very tricky to use properly. Better to think of them as a 100% support offensive hammer rather than an objective holder of some kind. So basically choppy stuff, large is good, shooty stuff small is good.

Blackmoor wrote:Up to 3 months ago I played in a couple of RTTs a month in So. California from Canyon Country to San Diego. Now I play in RTTs from Jacksonville to Tampa. I also last year I played in events as far away as an RTT in Salem, OR, to Adepticon in Chicago, and the Baltimore GT.

Unlike others who just play in one store in Utah.

Funny. I still end up with more experience than you. I guess I don't just play at one store, eh?

Blackmoor wrote:Yes I do. A unit has to have a “role”. If it does not have a role, then it has to “get it’s points back”. If you have a 500 point unit, it has to kill something or it is just 500 points running around.

Surviving and crushing the other guy isn't a 'role'?

Nothing has to get it's points back. This is the newbie style of 40K. You talk like you think you understand it, but you don't. You think small 6 man squads are so good because they get more special weapons, but that's more points on more guys and they are still not doing anything!

I like how you ignored Longshot's post, since it was balls on the money.

Blackmoor wrote:Depends on how big of a threat they are. No one will shoot at 5 guys just walking around, so yes (and make them 6 guys to help deny points).

In a Chaos list? Are you kidding? Kill the rest of the army because the 'genius' you are playing has multiple 6 man units walking around for 3 turns not doing anything, then kill these. You talk about making 'points back' then say junk like this.

Blackmoor wrote:Maybe…but I always like a few rhinos. They have a lot of roles from screening troops, to movement, to tank shocking.

Man, I have gotta play the suckers you play. You can tank shock with RHINOS where you play?! LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

Blackmoor wrote:You like static shooting armies. Some people see the value of mobility.

No matter how many times you say that, it isn't going to change the fact I have more mobile armies than static shooting armies by a ratio of 4:1.

Please stop with the BS already.

Blackmoor wrote:My rhino will tank shock you off of it! See, and here you are saying that rhinos suck. My 30 point little tank just nullified your huge 500 point unit! Or a Falcon would be better because it is a scoring unit.

You're gonna tank shock a PM unit off an objective? First off, PM are Fearless. Second, what crappy scenarios are you playing that require you to be on the objective? Thank g-d this is slowly losing favor as a incredibly bad scenario rule. Most scenarios you face should require you to be within 6" of the objective, so tank shocking won't accomplish much.

Blackmoor wrote:And objectives are placed all over the board. So the most that you are grabbing is one, where several squads can hold several objectives

Funny. First off, 99% of scenarios have 1 or 2 objectives. Since you read my Chaos Template, you know I recommend 3 'major' and 2 'minor' squads (or 3 'huge' squads) to move and take objectives. So let me see...3 squads, 2 DP, 3 oblit units...how am I not taking two objectives? If you're playing some crappy scenario where you can hold multiple objectives with one unit, please QFT already. Everyone knows that's BS. Nor should you be able to contest more than one either, seen enough of that stupidity to know it's broken.

Blackmoor wrote:In quarters missions you can hold only one table quarter with a large squad (and it will usually be contested by my tiny little 5 man squad).

So I have all the quarters contested, and you can be broken out of 1 of them by breaking your small squads up. It takes a huge amount of fire to dislodge 14 PM. If you don't think so, you've been playing alot of losers all around the country.

Blackmoor wrote:I am not sure what flexing is.

Having a unit that's flexible and can do more than 1 thing.

Blackmoor wrote:I like 8 man units myself. But 5 in a rhino have there uses. You wait until the orks or tyranids or whatever to get close and just before they hit your lines you drive up in your rhino get out and lay down a flamer template and rapid fire!

And kill 10 guys in a squad of 30? BFD? Then your speed bump gets rolled, and what was the point again? You traded a Rhino, 5 marines, a special weapon...for 10 guys in a horde army? Great tactical advice there.

Blackmoor wrote:Just the opposite is true. You want small squads so they will die off and then you can shoot them. If you take a huge squads, the only thing that can hurt dreadnoughts, Wraithlords, Flyrants etc. is the powerfist. You can tie up one large squad for a long time with the right unit.

Dreads don't live on the board in 40K. So this is meaningless tripe.
Wraithlords move faster than PM units...since when? You can choose to ignore the Wraithlord or hit it with 2 SW then engage it with the PF. With oblits and DP around, I've never worried about the WL because they are eminently killable. Unlike the Falcon. Seems like more meaningless tripe to me.
Flyrants don't die to PM? When did this happen? Sure Flyrants hurt, but since most people don't run the 6 attack flyrant they use the 12 shot flyrant, wtf are you talking about? Woo you kill 4 PM, I kill you. Fair trade.

Blackmoor wrote:Bigger is not better.

I know you think that but you're wrong, so why don't you keep saying it. Shout it from the rafters. Somebody might listen.

After reading your post, I hope they don't.

This is getting a bit out of hand with the vehemence here....

I just want to clarify that I am not advocating either position either in a vaccuum or completely. I am saying there is a value in taking big units, particularly in certain situations, and to say that there is just no point to doing so is reaching.

Those situations are:
1) When your unit is big and tough enough to almost certainly avoid going below half strength.
2) When your unit has very important special/heavy/etc things (e.g. a TK sorcerer), or things that give a significant cost savings for larger units (marks)
3) When smaller units do not achieve a net bonus of special weapons because they can be wiped out before they get to use them.
4) When your squad is fast and assaulty.


One other thing to bear in mind is that someone claimed that when shooting against two small PM squads, that it would be foolish to shoot one clean off the board before putting them both below scoring.

This is not really true because when you drop an 8 man plaguemarine squad below scoring, it is still very nearly as dangerous as an 8 man plaguemarine squad is (e.g. it has 2 specials and a powerfist left). In most scenarios you will want to wipe them out before you move on, because otherwise they will be able to punish you.

That can be viewed as both an advantage and a disadvantage, really -- a 3 man Pm squad with its specials/fist intact is still a threat. But on the other hand, if they can be killed before they do anything, you've wasted about 70 points of upgrades that die just as easily as the 70 pt cheaper naked plaguemarines.

Longshot wrote:I just want to clarify that I am not advocating either position either in a vaccuum or completely. I am saying there is a value in taking big units, particularly in certain situations, and to say that there is just no point to doing so is reaching.

Those situations are:
1) When your unit is big and tough enough to almost certainly avoid going below half strength.
2) When your unit has very important special/heavy/etc things (e.g. a TK sorcerer), or things that give a significant cost savings for larger units (marks)
3) When smaller units do not achieve a net bonus of special weapons because they can be wiped out before they get to use them.
4) When your squad is fast and assaulty.


One other thing to bear in mind is that someone claimed that when shooting against two small PM squads, that it would be foolish to shoot one clean off the board before putting them both below scoring.

This is not really true because when you drop an 8 man plaguemarine squad below scoring, it is still very nearly as dangerous as an 8 man plaguemarine squad is (e.g. it has 2 specials and a powerfist left). In most scenarios you will want to wipe them out before you move on, because otherwise they will be able to punish you.

That can be viewed as both an advantage and a disadvantage, really -- a 3 man Pm squad with its specials/fist intact is still a threat. But on the other hand, if they can be killed before they do anything, you've wasted about 70 points of upgrades that die just as easily as the 70 pt cheaper naked plaguemarines.

Thanks longshot you pretty much summed up how I feel on the subject. Squad size is a situational sort of thing. Personally my place style caters toward smaller squads that can flex and work together

As i see it

Benefits of small units:

Harder to remove from objectives - if you can reduce two 8 man units below half you could easily reduce a 16 man unit below half (no overkill from one unit wasted)

Threat even when below half - if you reduce one of those 8 man units it is still useful and still needs to be shot expanding the life expectancy of the second 8 man unit.

More flexible - If one objective should happen to fall a single 8 man unit can split off and take it leaving the other behind. The 16 man unit can't do this.

Advantages of one large unit:

Absorbing charges - Many really good combat units can plow through an 8 man unit and consolidate into another unit with no casualties. Almost nobody can do this to a 16 man unit. Try geensteelers. If they hit the units one at a time they win. If they hit the one big unit which is clumped up they loose.

Doesn't tend to get isolated - two smaller units have the tendency to walk away from each other and get killed peace meal. It just happens.

Can charge as one - It can easily happen that if you want to charge an enemy then one of the two 8 man units will be out of range or forced out by the charge rules and the other one goes in unsupported.. This is unlikely/impossible to happen to a 16 man unit.

Longshot wrote:I just want to clarify that I am not advocating either position either in a vaccuum or completely. I am saying there is a value in taking big units, particularly in certain situations, and to say that there is just no point to doing so is reaching.

Those situations are:
1) When your unit is big and tough enough to almost certainly avoid going below half strength.
2) When your unit has very important special/heavy/etc things (e.g. a TK sorcerer), or things that give a significant cost savings for larger units (marks)
3) When smaller units do not achieve a net bonus of special weapons because they can be wiped out before they get to use them.
4) When your squad is fast and assaulty.


One other thing to bear in mind is that someone claimed that when shooting against two small PM squads, that it would be foolish to shoot one clean off the board before putting them both below scoring.

This is not really true because when you drop an 8 man plaguemarine squad below scoring, it is still very nearly as dangerous as an 8 man plaguemarine squad is (e.g. it has 2 specials and a powerfist left). In most scenarios you will want to wipe them out before you move on, because otherwise they will be able to punish you.

That can be viewed as both an advantage and a disadvantage, really -- a 3 man Pm squad with its specials/fist intact is still a threat. But on the other hand, if they can be killed before they do anything, you've wasted about 70 points of upgrades that die just as easily as the 70 pt cheaper naked plaguemarines.

Well said, and I agree.
One point of note:

One other thing to bear in mind is that someone claimed that when shooting against two small PM squads, that it would be foolish to shoot one clean off the board before putting them both below scoring.

This is not really true because when you drop an 8 man plaguemarine squad below scoring, it is still very nearly as dangerous as an 8 man plaguemarine squad is (e.g. it has 2 specials and a powerfist left). In most scenarios you will want to wipe them out before you move on, because otherwise they will be able to punish you.

That was me, but you've changed some of the facts.
The way you say it, you're right.

The original discussion point referred to 2 @ 5 man units & 6 lascannon wounds vs 1@ 10 man unit & 6 lascannon wounds.
I did state to shoot them off of the table, but I offered a different (IMO better) way to do it.


Like I said, though, you illustrated the pros & cons nicely.


Eric

Just a quick point in case it hasn't already been brought up. Larger squads do get a kind of rebate on icons versus smaller squads. 20 raptors, for example, pay 50 points less for the mark of nurgle then two units of 10 raptors do.

Doctor Thunder wrote:Just a quick point in case it hasn't already been brought up. Larger squads do get a kind of rebate on icons versus smaller squads. 20 raptors, for example, pay 50 points less for the mark of nurgle then two units of 10 raptors do.

We've referred to this but haven't gotten in depth about it. The same concept also applies to 1K sons. The sorcerer acts as an upgrade for the entire squad. You're entirely right in this line of reasoning.