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a friend of mine plays tau, and in his codex he pointed out that the devilfish entry is listed just like a normal squad, and that it doesnt list it as a dedicated transport, just a transport.

I really dont care that much, but i just wanted to see if anyone else has done this or heard of it being done. also does it look to you like the codex supports it?

thanks!!

Been discussed to death. It is in GW FAQ's. The 'troop' symbol in the pic box is a 'misspirint so to speak. 'Nuff said.

akira5665 wrote:Been discussed to death. It is in GW FAQ's. The 'troop' symbol in the pic box is a 'misspirint so to speak. 'Nuff said.

can you point me to where it states this? the GW FAQs make no mention of this. if you could give me the the thread or the web addy for the gw disscusion id appreciate it

thanks!

Ok, will have a look. Or FYI, you can search Dakka's previous threads. Checking now.

Ok, once you get past the dialog..

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/150/82596.page#84358

Talk about can of worms.

If you're to go pure RAW then yes you can take a DF as a troop transport (but be prepared to argue it with everyone you try to field a DF this way against).

The facts as they stand are

The Devilfish rules (pg 36 – Tau Empire Codex) say:
1. The Devilfish is a transport
2. It is located in the troops section of the codex
3. The entry does not indicate it is dedicated

The transport rules (pg 62 – Warhammer 40k v4 Rule Book) say:
1. Units may take a dedicated transport if the unit entry includes a transport option
2. Other transports can be taken separately and take up a FOC slot
3. Transports can only carry infantry

Supporters of the DF as a troop choice point to 3 things to support their point of view.
1. Every other dedicated transport in the game says that the transport is dedicated in its entry (and the entries are normally located in a separate section)
2. The pathfinder DF doesn’t get the scout move
3. The DF entry says the only thing they may not transport is XV battlesuits.

Those that oppose this view point to the Land Raider and Falcon entries as proof that the DF is dedicated.

The only difference between the Land Raider/Falcon entries and the Devilfish entry is that the Land Raider and Falcon are identified as heavy support, where the Devilfish is identified as a transport. Nowhere in the transport rules does it sate that transports MUST be dedicated.

The devilfish BECOMES a dedicated transport when taken as an option/upgrade for either a Fire Warrior or Pathfinder squad.

So by the RAW you can take the DF as a non-dedicated transport, occupying a troops FOC slot. Unfortunately the Tau Empire seems to be the only army with a non-dedicated transport. Also the prevailing view in the 40k world is that transports should always be dedicated. Thus, anyone who you try to tell otherwise is going to fight with you (even the RAW advocates).

I support that the view that the DF is a troops choice. However, in my opinion getting a battlefield taxi is not worth the argument.

I know I’m going to get flamed for this opinion but until GW comes out and says one way or another (taking a DF as a non-dedicated transport is not covered by any of the FAQs) it will be continue to be a point of contention.

Meep357 wrote:Talk about can of worms.

Fun little thread. Perfect example of what I call "houserule disease" -- the irrational desire of some players to justify their house rules as RAW. Not that there's anything wrong with house rules -- and many are quite reasonable (e.g., models with a rapid fire weapon and a pistol can charge if they fire the pistol and not the rapid fire weapon), and there are myriad situations that require them (e.g., drop pods scattering on friendly models), but the bizarre need to justify house rules as RAW when the RAW fails baffles me.

Lowinor .... you point me to the RAW that states a DF cannot be taken as a troop choice and I'll happily concede the point

How about this... I'll point you to the page where it says what the thing IS, instead of what it isn't (nothing specifically says my scout isn't a Terminator... but that doesn't mean its a Terminator).

So by the RAW you can take the DF as a non-dedicated transport, occupying a troops FOC slot.

The set up of the Tau codex is such that each unit has to its' side (farthest from the spine) what Force Org slot it is (all HQ's say "HQ" by them, the Elites say "elite" by them, etc).

What does it say next to Devilfish? It says transport. That makes it a transport option and not a Troop option. You cannot take an Elite choice as a Troop choice in this game without special rules. Right? Why would that rule be suspended for anything identified as something other than "Troop?"

Fin.



Eric

MagickalMemories wrote:How about this... I'll point you to the page where it says what the thing IS, instead of what it isn't (nothing specifically says my scout isn't a Terminator... but that doesn't mean its a Terminator).

The set up of the Tau codex is such that each unit has to its' side (farthest from the spine) what Force Org slot it is (all HQ's say "HQ" by them, the Elites say "elite" by them, etc).

What does it say next to Devilfish? It says transport. That makes it a transport option and not a Troop option. You cannot take an Elite choice as a Troop choice in this game without special rules. Right? Why would that rule be suspended for anything identified as something other than "Troop?"

No rule is suspended, no rule is changed. Yes the Devilfish is a transport (a point I never constested). However may I point you to page 62 of the BGB and I quote "Sometimes a unit entry in a Codex book will include a transport option, allowing a vehicle to be selected along with the unit. These transport vehicles are directly assigned to that particular unit and are known as dedicated transports. Other transport vehicles are chosen spereratly and occupy a Force Organisation chart slot (for example Eldar Falcons), and can be used to provide ad hoc transportation to any unit that can embark on it." (Emphasis mine).

Now granted this refers to the third edition Eldar codex (which I do not have a copy of). However it quite clearly states that transports can be taken to occupy a FOC. As the devilfish is bagded in the codex as troops and quite clearly part of the troops section .....

Meep357 wrote:No rule is suspended, no rule is changed. Yes the Devilfish is a transport (a point I never constested). However may I point you to page 62 of the BGB and I quote "Sometimes a unit entry in a Codex book will include a transport option, allowing a vehicle to be selected along with the unit. These transport vehicles are directly assigned to that particular unit and are known as dedicated transports. Other transport vehicles are chosen spereratly and occupy a Force Organisation chart slot (for example Eldar Falcons), and can be used to provide ad hoc transportation to any unit that can embark on it." (Emphasis mine).

Now granted this refers to the third edition Eldar codex (which I do not have a copy of). However it quite clearly states that transports can be taken to occupy a FOC. As the devilfish is bagded in the codex as troops and quite clearly part of the troops section .....

Yes, but you're forgetting some things.
The book refers to the fact that those transport options are using specific FOC slots (Heavy, etc).
Additionally, you overlooked my point about using a unit in the FOC as not being specified as for that slot. Just because it is "badged" doesn't mean anything. That is simple decoration within the book. Nothing more. Show me where, in the codex, it says "anything with this symbol (enter symbol here) may be purchased to fill a troops FOC slot," or something similar.

You're relying on the fact that the transport can be taken for firewarriors as the basis for your point (supported by a decorative image). The problem is that it is listed -in writing- as a "Transport" and not as "Troops." If it isn't listed as "Troop," is can't be taken as one, barring a special rule (like the SM trait system).

Just because it doesn't say you CAN'T, it doesn't mean you can. The 40K rules are permission based. That means they're restrictive (you can't do anything unless given the permission to do so). You have to show where, in the book, it specifically says you CAN do that in order to be able to.


Eric

Meep357 wrote:Lowinor .... you point me to the RAW that states a DF cannot be taken as a troop choice and I'll happily concede the point

Um, if you read the thread, I argue quite a bit in it that the DF, by RAW, is a valid troops choice. Not taking it as a troops choice is a house rule, and while a reasonable one (and how most folks really should expect others to play the game), still a house rule. What I was just commenting on was the amount of attempts to twist the RAW to the individual's house rules when the rational thing to do is say "yes, that's not what the rules say, but for reasons X, Y, and Z we don't play exactly by what the rules say" and instead try to justify the (often more reasonable) house rule as literal RAW.

It's like the rapid fire gun on the charge -- the rules say firing while carrying a rapid fire weapon prevents you from charging. Everyone I'm aware of plays it as shooting a rapid fire weapon is what prevents you from charging. It's clearly a house rule, but people will still try to justify it as RAW for unknown reasons. That's what I was commenting on. The Devilfish thing is another example -- by RAW, they're troop choices. I don't know anyone who plays that way, but hey, plenty of people will vehemently argue that their house rule is the RAW and apply some incredibly twisted logic just to prove that their version of the rules is more correct.

MagickalMemories wrote:You're relying on the fact that the transport can be taken for firewarriors as the basis for your point (supported by a decorative image). The problem is that it is listed -in writing- as a "Transport" and not as "Troops." If it isn't listed as "Troop," is can't be taken as one, barring a special rule (like the SM trait system).

You are making up rules.

It gets down to this, to put it as simply as possible, restating some of what Meep has already said, and what's gone 'round and 'round in the other thread.

Premise 1: The only existing rule which specifies FOC location of army list entries for Tau lists is in the Tau Empire codex page 24. The criterion (and, it deserves to be stressed, sole criterion) given is which section of the army list the entry is found within.
Premise 2: The Devilfish entry is found within the Troops section.
Conclusion: A Devilfish may be taken as a Troops choice.

Now, plenty has been said, but no one has been able to refute the basic argument (at least, as far as I've seen). There aren't any other rules that determine FOC location (people have quoted the dedicated transport rules, but those are a property of the selection of the transport, not the transport (or transport entry) itself) that apply to Tau beyond those on page 24.

People have attacked the second premise, but honestly, if you define "section" in such a way that the Tau troops section is non-contiguous in the text, you're abusing the English language. The army list part of the codex is divided into sections, each with a large section header. Deciding that section is determined by the vertical text to the side of the army list entries is... ad hoc at best.

And I think it's pretty clear that the conclusion follows from the premises.

Now, as I've said before, I don't play that way (I don't even play Tau... yet), I don't know anyone who's actually put together a list that way, I don't expect to really see anyone play that way, but that doesn't change what the rules actually say.

The Tau Empire Codex says: "Transport: Devilfish Troop Carrier". It is a transport, not an independent unit.

Nurglitch wrote:The Tau Empire Codex says: "Transport: Devilfish Troop Carrier". It is a transport, not an independent unit.

Back it up or rescind it. The only rules that I can find about whether something is or is not a Troops choice (at least, that are applicable to Tau) are on page 24, and don't mention anything about that. The rules for dedicated transports only apply if the transport is taken as a part of another force org chart, and as such are a property of the rules for the unit purchasing the dedicated transport. Show us the rules that say that something being labeled a transport means it can't be a force org choice in and of itself.

See Codex: Tau Empire. P. 24, "Using Army Lists: Army List Entries: Transports."

It says: "If a unit is permitted to be mounted in a transport, this is mentioned here." Italics mine.

See Rulebook. P. 62. "Who Can Use A Transport Vehicle?"

It says: "Sometimes a unit entry in a Codex book will include a transport option, allowing a vehicle to be selected along with the unit. These transport vehicles are directly assigned to that particular unit and are known as dedicated transports." Italics mine.

The Devilfish Army List Entry is labeled a Transport. This labeling corresponds to the Devilfish noted to be available as a transport for Fire Warrior Teams and required for Pathfinder Teams. Since its Army List Entry is labeled "Transport" we know that unlike vehicle units with some transport capacity this vehicle unit is only allowed to be taken as part of some other Army List Entry, and follows the rules for Dedicated Transports.

Summary: These rules say that no Unit being labeled a Transport can be a Force Organization Chart Selection, as they are only allowed to be selected as part of another Unit.

Since its Army List Entry is labeled "Transport" we know that unlike vehicle units with some transport capacity this vehicle unit is only allowed to be taken as part of some other Army List Entry, and follows the rules for Dedicated Transports.

Here's the problem -- there aren't any rules that actually specify this. You're conflating Transport and Dedicated Transport -- and asserting that because something can be a Dedicated Transport it must be a Dedicated Transport. The "only" above doesn't exist in the rules.

Actually the rule on P. 62 that I quoted does say exactly that units labeled Transports are Dedicated Transports.

"Sometimes a unit entry in a Codex book will include a transport option, allowing a vehicle to be selected along with the unit. These transport vehicles are directly assigned to that particular unit and are known as dedicated transports." Underline mine.

Thusly do the rules say that if some unit is labeled "Transport" it must be a "Dedicated Transport". The concept expressed by my use of "only" is the same as that expressed by the verb phrase "are known as", an indication of an identity statement.

Transports are only taken as part of some other Army List Entry; Transports are Dedicated Transports.

Nurglitch wrote:Actually the rule on P. 62 that I quoted does say exactly that units labeled Transports are Dedicated Transports.

"Sometimes a unit entry in a Codex book will include a transport option, allowing a vehicle to be selected along with the unit. These transport vehicles are directly assigned to that particular unit and are known as dedicated transports." Underline mine.

Thusly do the rules say that if some unit is labeled "Transport" it must be a "Dedicated Transport". The concept expressed by my use of "only" is the same as that expressed by the verb phrase "are known as", an indication of an identity statement.

Again, you're claiming the label of Transport (as anything other than the rule Transport, at least) means something. There's no such rule. It's a reasonable intuitive leap, sure, but it's not a rule. Nowhere does it say anything about "being labeled Transport". It says transports taken as an option from another army list entry are Dedicated Transports. It doesn't say that this designation carries over to the army list entry for the transport in question, just the particular vehicles taken as options from an army list entry.

Transports are only taken as part of some other Army List Entry; Transports are Dedicated Transports.

Right, just like Falcons. And Land Raiders. Oh, wait...

Seriously, though, Land Raiders can be taken as Dedicated Transports. By your argument, they could only be taken as Dedicated Transports, as Land Raiders fit the "these transport vehicles" in exactly the same way as Devilfish do, as they fit the exact same criteria when selected as Dedicated Transports. They just say "Land Raider" instead of "Transport" in their vertical text, which as I keep pointing out, doesn't have any rules attached to it.

Very good Nurglitch. You've identified how units can get a dedicated transport.

Now unfortunatley you missed a part of page 62. "Other transport vehicles are chosen seperatley and occupy a Force Organisation chart slot ..." (emphasis mine)

Also I'm afraid you've misread the entry on pg 24 in the tau codex. The section you are refering to only indicates if a unit is eligble to take a dedicated transport.

Now .... the devilfish is identified as a transport - NOT a dedicated transport vehicle. The transport rules say I can take a transport vehicle and occupy a FOC slot with it. The devilfish is listed under the troops heading in the Tau codex. Therefore the Devilfish occupies a troops FOC slot when selected as a non-dedicated transport.

Now ... please identify for me where the Tau Devilfish is identified as any thing other than transport (ie. a dedicated transport) or the rule that states that all transport vehicles are dedicated.

EVERY dedicated transport in the game is identified as such somehow in its entry.


----

Lowinor - sorry about that .... I only skimmed that other thread when I went back and reread it.

Edit: Spelling & such

I'm not claiming the label of Transport means anything other than what the rules state it to be: Dedicated Transports are what are labeled "Transports". It does indeed say that this designation carries over to the Army List Entry for the Transport in question. That's why it's labeled "Transport".

Interestingly Falcon and Land Raider Army List Entries are not labeled "Transport". Codex: Space Marines has a specific section for Transports. This section describes how Land Raiders may be taken as dedicated transports (as opposed to always being dedicated transports like the vehicles in that section) and how the rules apply when that happens.

Codex: Eldar lists the Wave Serpent in its Transport section. The Falcon is in the Heavy Support section. Their entry is not prefixed by the label "Transport", unlike Wave Serpents, or Rhinos, or Razorbacks, or Drop Pods, or Trukks. Being able to transport troops does not a dedicated transport make, as the rules for vehicles transporting troops tell us. Having a unit entry labeled "Transport" however does.

By my argument neither Falcons nor Land Raiders can only be taken as Dedicated Transports. That's because my argument is about what the rules say, and the rules say that units labeled Transports are Dedicated Transports (which is, as the rulebook points out in the section on "Transport Vehicles" is different from Passenger Capacity, which is noted within a unit's entry as "transport:"). Land Raiders are not labeled "Transport" and the rules note when and how they operate as Dedicated Transports.

P. 35 of Codex: Space Marines.

"Certain Space Marine units have the option of selecting a transport vehicle. These vehicles do not use up any additional force organization chart selections, but otherwise function as separate units."

"Land Raiders may be selected by some units as dedicated transports."

The label of "Transport" means something, it means that the vehicle capable of transporting troops that it labels is a Dedicated Transport Vehicle. We know it means this because the rules say so, in particular "Who Can Use A Transport Vehicle?" (Rulebook. P. 62.)

This is elaborated by the various codicies. The Ork Codex and the Blood Angels Codex take no chances and label Rhinos, Razorbacks, Drop Pods, and the Trukk as "Dedicated Tranport Vehicles". The Space Marine Codex, like the Tau Empire Codex and the Eldar Codex merely labels Dedicated Transport Vehicles "Transport". The Chaos Space Marine Codex does not label the Chaos Rhino a Transport or Dedicated Transport, but merely recommends reference to the Transport Vehicles section of the rulebook to see how transport vehicles taken for units work.

So apparently there is an entire section in the rulebook attached to the label "Transport", covering the entirety of P.62. Then there's the commentaries in the Space Marine and Chaos Space Marine codicies, the explicit labeling in the Blood Angel and Ork codicies, and the labeling in the Tau Empire and Eldar codicies.

Nurglitch wrote:I'm not claiming the label of Transport means anything other than what the rules state it to be: Dedicated Transports are what are labeled "Transports". It does indeed say that this designation carries over to the Army List Entry for the Transport in question. That's why it's labeled "Transport".

Please site the page number and quote the rule.

Nurglitch wrote:That's because my argument is about what the rules say, and the rules say that units labeled Transports are Dedicated Transports (which is, as the rulebook points out in the section on "Transport Vehicles" is different from Passenger Capacity, which is noted within a unit's entry as "transport:").

Again, please site the page number and quote the rules.

Nurglithc wrote:So apparently there is an entire section in the rulebook attached to the label "Transport", covering the entirety of P.62. Then there's the commentaries in the Space Marine and Chaos Space Marine codicies, the explicit labeling in the Blood Angel and Ork codicies, and the labeling in the Tau Empire and Eldar codicies.

Why then does the rule on pg 62 specifically state that "transports" can be selected individually and take up a FOC slot? Again I quote the BGB (pg 62) "Other transport vehicles are chosen speraratley and occupy a Force Organisation chart slot ..." Note it says TRANSPORTS, not vehicles that have the capacity to transport.

Nurglitch wrote:This is elaborated by the various codicies. The Ork Codex and the Blood Angels Codex take no chances and label Rhinos, Razorbacks, Drop Pods, and the Trukk as "Dedicated Tranport Vehicles". The Space Marine Codex, like the Tau Empire Codex and the Eldar Codex merely labels Dedicated Transport Vehicles "Transport". The Chaos Space Marine Codex does not label the Chaos Rhino a Transport or Dedicated Transport, but merely recommends reference to the Transport Vehicles section of the rulebook to see how transport vehicles taken for units work.

Let me cite the sections you we referring to:

SM Codex: Transport Section (pg35) "Certain Space Marine units have the option of selecting a transport vehicle. These vehicles do not use up any addition force organisationl chart sections, but otherwise funtion as seperate units."
Eldar Codex: Wave Serpent (pg 63) "Transport: The Serpent is a dedicated transport that can carry a single unit of up to 12 models."
CSM Codex: Chaos Rhino (pg 96) "This vehicle [b]does not use up any force organisation chart selections[b], but otherwise functions as a seperate unit."
Orc Codex: Dedicated Transport Vehicles (pg 100) "Thses vehicles [b]do not use up any force organisation chart selections[b], but otherwise function as separate units."
(Emphasis Mine)

Now as you can see, each of these units has it specifically included in their rules that they are dedicated transports or that they fail to occupy a FOC slot.

On to another entry
Tau Codex: Transport: Devilfish Troop Carrier (pg 36) "Transport: The devilfish can carry up to twelve models. It may not carry any troops in XV battlesuits."
Nowhere in the entry does (or anywhere else in the codex) does it say that the devilfish is a dedicated transport vehicle (like the Eldar & Orc codexes), nor does it state that the devilfish doesn't use up a FOC slot (like the SM, CSM & Orc codexes)

Now how can I claim that the DF is only a dedicated unit that fails to occupy a FOC slot if there are no rules for it? Just like the Land Raider (both SM & CSM) I must use the rules on page 62 to turn it into a dedicated transport.

These problems are caused because the Tau are the only army with a non-dedicated "transport". This has been an issue since the codex came out. There is a Tau FAQ .... and the Devilfish is only mentioned in the Pathfinder entry to say that it does not get the scout move that the pathfinder unit gets.

**EDIT** Typoitis

Meep357: I did quote the rule and cite the page number. Here it is again, on P.62, "Who Can Use A Transport Vehicle":

"Sometimes a unit entry in a Codex book will include a transport option, allowing a vehicle to be selected along with the unit. These transport vehicles are directly assigned to that particular unit and are known as dedicated transports."

This rule tells us that some transports are dedicated transports.

"Other transport vehicles are chosen separately and occupy a Force Organisation chart slot (for example, Eldar Falcons), and can be used to provide ad hoc transportation to any unit that can embark on it."

This rule tells us that some transport vehicles are not dedicated transport vehicles.

So if some transport vehicles are not dedicated transport vehicles, and some transport vehicles are dedicated transport vehicles, what distinguishes one from another?

These rules, or rule depending on what we're refering to here, tell us that all transport vehicles have the passenger capacity. And transport vehicles that are not dedicated transport vehicles are not included in a unit's transport option. We know that because the rules tell us that they are "other" than the units chosen as transport options for other units.

In the Space Marine Codex an exception to this is spelled out, the Land Raider. Land Raiders are transport vehicles that may be taken as dedicated transport vehicles. A Land Raider may be assigned as a dedicated transport vehicle or it may be chosen separately and occupy a Force Organization chart slot.

In Codex: Tau Empire, which units have transport options, as described on P.24 of that book? Fire Warrior Teams and Pathfinder Teams each have the transport 'option' of taking a Devilfish troop carrier. Put another way, the Devilfish Troop Carrier is a transport option for units in the Tau Empire Army List. Devilfish do not have the Land Raider option of occupying a Force Organization chart slot or being chosen as a dedicated transport. They are listed as a transport option for Fire Warrior Teams and transport 'option' (requirement) for Pathfinder Teams.

Like the dedicated transports in all of the army lists except the Chaos Space Marine Codex, which makes it clear that the Chaos Rhino is a dedicated transport in a different way, the Devilfish Army List Entry falls under the heading of Transport. Transport vehicles listed under the heading of Transport are those referred to by the transport option available to other units in army lists.

The Fire Warrior Team, Devilfish, and Pathfinder Team all satisfy the requirements for a transport vehicle to be a dedicated transport vehicle. Codex Tau Empire has no additional rules providing an exception, as exist for the Land Raider in Codex Space Marines. They are dedicated transport vehicles and according to the rules for transport vehicles on P.62 of the rulebook may not be chosen independently of those units they are an option for.

Nurglitch wrote:Meep357: I did quote the rule and cite the page number. Here it is again, on P.62, "Who Can Use A Transport Vehicle":

"Sometimes a unit entry in a Codex book will include a transport option, allowing a vehicle to be selected along with the unit. These transport vehicles are directly assigned to that particular unit and are known as dedicated transports."

This rule tells us that some transports are dedicated transports.

"Other transport vehicles are chosen separately and occupy a Force Organisation chart slot (for example, Eldar Falcons), and can be used to provide ad hoc transportation to any unit that can embark on it."

This rule tells us that some transport vehicles are not dedicated transport vehicles.

So if some transport vehicles are not dedicated transport vehicles, and some transport vehicles are dedicated transport vehicles, what distinguishes one from another?

The rules that distinguish one from another are included in the rules for the specific vehicles. There is no general rule that distinguishes one type of transport from another. Labeling a vehicle as a transport does not distinguish it as dedicated, just as the label "jump infantry" does not distinguish between "jump pack" and "jet pack".

Here's the problem with your argument Nurglitch: You are trying to use the fact that most codexes include a specific rule for their transport vehicles that rule must therefore automatically applies to the others.

Page 62 instructs us as to who can use a transport vehicle and how we create a dedicated transport. It does not catagorise or identify any vehicles as dedicated unless they are taken as such. It includes rules that alows transports to be selected independantly and as dedicated units.

The devilfish is a transport. However what the devilfish does not have a rule that restricts it to dedicated duties (like the rhino, wave serpent & orc trukk). When selected as an option for a unit of Firewarriors or as the required option for pathfinders then they are restricted to dedicated duties; when selected independantly it occupies a FOC slot.

Meep357: The 'general' rule that distinguishes dedicated transport vehicles from non-dedicated transport vehicles is stated on P.62 of rulebook. It tells us that transport vehicles that are a transport option for another unit are dedicated transports. It categorizes such transport vehicles as dedicated transports.

The Devilfish is a transport option for Fire Warrior Teams and Pathfinder Teams. Transport options for units are other than non-dedicated transport vehicles; they are dedicated transports. The Devilfish is a dedicated transport. It is labeled as such; it cannot be selected independently because it is a dedicated transport vehicle.

No ... page 62 tells us how to select a transport as a dedicated unit.

It does not categorise any vehicle as dedicated unless it is selected as an option.

Nowhere on that page does it state (or allude) that anything labelled a transport is automatically dedicated.

And no ... the devilfish is not labelled dedicated. Nor does it have a rule that makes it such.

Again I quote the page section you are referring to:

“Sometimes aunit entry in a Codex book will include a transport option, allowing a vehicle to be selected along with the unit. These transport vehicles are directly assigned to that particular unit and are known as dedicated transports. Other transport vehicles are chosen separately and occupy a Force Organisation chart slot …” (emphasis mine)

Where there does it state that something labelled as a transport is dedicated?
It only says that when a transport vehicle (A) is selected as the transport option for another unit (B) it becomes a dedicated transport. So taking a devilfish with a unit of firewarriors is no different to taking a land raider with a unit of terminators in terms of determining if the unit is dedicated or if it can provide ad hoc transport.

It makes no distinction between a vehicle with a transport capacity and a vehicle labelled as a transport. Therefore we must defer to the rules for each individual unit to determine if it can be used separately or as a dedicated unit only.

Yes, I did explain how those rules need to be read in English and what they meant. They state that transport vehicles labeled as a transport and which a transport option for another unit are dedicated transports.

The Devilfish Troop Carrier Army List Entry is labeled "Transport" and the Devilfish Troop Carrier is a transport option for two units in that Army List (Fire Warrior Teams and Pathfinder Teams).

Selecting a Devilfish as part of Fire Warrior Team Army List Entry is noted to be different from selecting a Land Raider as part of a Terminator Squad Army List Entry. Codex: Space Marines notes that Land Raiders may also be taken as dedicated tranports even though they do not have an entry under the header of "Transport" like Rhinos, Razorbacks, and Drop Pods. It also notes how they differ from all other dedicated transports with regard to capturing objectives and whatnot.

So, back to the rules on P.62:

"Sometimes a unit entry in a Codex book will include a transport option, allowing a vehicle to be selected along with the unit. These transport vehicles are directly assigned to that particular unit and are known as dedicated transports."

This rule tells us that some transports are dedicated transports.

"Other transport vehicles are chosen separately and occupy a Force Organisation chart slot (for example, Eldar Falcons), and can be used to provide ad hoc transportation to any unit that can embark on it."

This rule tells us that some transport vehicles are not dedicated transport vehicles.

These rules, or rule depending on what we're referring to here, tell us that all transport vehicles have the passenger capacity. And transport vehicles that are not dedicated transport vehicles are not included in a unit's transport option. We know that because the rules tell us that they are "other" than the units chosen as transport options for other units.

The Fire Warrior Team, Devilfish, and Pathfinder Team all satisfy the requirements for a transport vehicle to be a dedicated transport vehicle. Codex Tau Empire has no additional rules providing an exception, as exist for the Land Raider in Codex Space Marines. They are dedicated transport vehicles and according to the rules for transport vehicles on P.62 of the rulebook may not be chosen independently of those units they are an option for.

Meep, put yourself in the shoes of a non-tau player. Your opponent shows up with a fleet of devilfish. He uses your arguement to say they aren't dedicated transports, they are troops.

Try to be fair and unbiased: Does it seem reasonable to you?

According to your stance, SM's & CSM's could take an unlimited number of rhinos, since they aren't dedicated AND take up no FOC slot

We're not talking reasonable, we're talking RAW. My views on RAW are (should be) fairly well known.

I have no problems what so ever facing an opponent who want's to show up with 6 devilfish as their troops choices (and 6 is the max you could have ... remeber when transports are taken as an seperate choice they occupy a FOC slot - troops in this case). Personally if someone shows up with a fleet of 6 devil fish they're seeting themselves up for failure. Devilfish just aren't that tough & you would be better off spending those 300+ points elsewhere in the army.

As for the rhinos no .... you forget that the SM & CSM rhinos have a rule that states that they are dedicated transports & therefore cannot be taken seperatley (a rule which the devilfish lacks).

Maybe you're talking RAW, but I'm talking about the rules stated by the text and thus eminently a matter of being reasonable.

There are several transports that may or may not be dedicated.

Falcon, Land Raider, and a Chimera (Chimeras are fast attack options in an AC list. So are Armored Fist squads).

But using examples in other codexes is pointless from a RaW perspective.

The Devilfish is an entry in the Troops section of the Tau codex, and it is also available as a dedicated transport for some units. That something is one of those things does not mean that it can't be the other.

I really doubt it was intended for the Devilfish to be a troops unit by itself (And I don't play that it is - I would consider it an exploit), but by RaW it appears to be.