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Well I've had a few people ask me how to make a viable Eldar list without resorting to Eldrad, Falcons, or various other 'standard' units.

Without losing assault or shooting capability.

Well, here you are.

Everything can move and shoot to full effect.

Every unit has a ranged weapon S6 or better.

The Harlies and the Shining Spears can hide while firing.

The Guardian units have conceal and of course your Wraithlords should stay in cover but you have spiritseers so they'll keep firing.

I expect the Guardians will take the light fire and the heavy fire will go into the Wraithlords, but that's ok you can take it.

Maugen Ra is a gun platform instead of a fortune platform.

All units have a 'last chance' anti-tank weapon as well.

Enjoy.

2000 Pts - Eldar Roster - Eldar Walking Gunline

1 Phoenix Lord @ 195 Pts
Fearless; Fleet; Disciples; Eternal Warriors; Independent Character
1 PL Maugan Ra @ [195] Pts
Acute Senses; Crack Shot (CS); Fast Shot (FS); The Maugetar (M)

3 Harlequin Troupe @ 156 Pts
Fleet; Flip Belts; Furious Charge; Hit & Run; Holo-Suit (H-S); Harlequins Kiss (Hkiss) (x3); Shuriken Pistol (x3); Hallucinogen Grenades
1 Harle Death Jester @ [28] Pts
Fleet; Flip Belts; Furious Charge; Hit & Run; Holo-Suit (H-S); Harlequin Shrieker Cannon (HSC); Hallucinogen Grenades
1 Harle Shadow Seer @ [62] Pts
Psyker; Veil Of Tears ; Fleet; Flip Belts; Furious Charge; Hit & Run; Holo-Suit (H-S); Harlequins Kiss (Hkiss); Fusion Pistol (Fp); Hallucinogen Grenades

3 Harlequin Troupe @ 156 Pts
Fleet; Flip Belts; Furious Charge; Hit & Run; Holo-Suit (H-S); Harlequins Kiss (Hkiss) (x3); Shuriken Pistol (x3); Hallucinogen Grenades
1 Harle Death Jester @ [28] Pts
Fleet; Flip Belts; Furious Charge; Hit & Run; Holo-Suit (H-S); Harlequin Shrieker Cannon (HSC); Hallucinogen Grenades
1 Harle Shadow Seer @ [62] Pts
Psyker; Veil Of Tears ; Fleet; Flip Belts; Furious Charge; Hit & Run; Holo-Suit (H-S); Harlequins Kiss (Hkiss); Fusion Pistol (Fp); Hallucinogen Grenades

3 Harlequin Troupe @ 156 Pts
Fleet; Flip Belts; Furious Charge; Hit & Run; Holo-Suit (H-S); Harlequins Kiss (Hkiss) (x3); Shuriken Pistol (x3); Hallucinogen Grenades
1 Harle Death Jester @ [28] Pts
Fleet; Flip Belts; Furious Charge; Hit & Run; Holo-Suit (H-S); Harlequin Shrieker Cannon (HSC); Hallucinogen Grenades
1 Harle Shadow Seer @ [62] Pts
Psyker; Veil Of Tears ; Fleet; Flip Belts; Furious Charge; Hit & Run; Holo-Suit (H-S); Harlequins Kiss (Hkiss); Fusion Pistol (Fp); Hallucinogen Grenades

0 Guardian Squad @ 157 Pts
Fleet
12 G Defender Squad @ [111] Pts
Shuriken Catapult (SCat) (x12)
1 Weapon Platform @ [15] Pts
Scatter Laser (SctL)
1 Spiritseer (Warlock) @ [46] Pts
Psyker; Conceal ; Fleet; Spiritseer Upgrade; Rune Armour (RAmr); Shuriken Pistol (Sp); Witchblade (WB)
1 WP Conceal @ [0] Pts

0 Guardian Squad @ 157 Pts
Fleet
12 G Defender Squad @ [111] Pts
Shuriken Catapult (SCat) (x12)
1 Weapon Platform @ [15] Pts
Scatter Laser (SctL)
1 Spiritseer (Warlock) @ [46] Pts
Psyker; Conceal ; Fleet; Spiritseer Upgrade; Rune Armour (RAmr); Shuriken Pistol (Sp); Witchblade (WB)
1 WP Conceal @ [0] Pts

0 Guardian Squad @ 157 Pts
Fleet
12 G Defender Squad @ [111] Pts
Shuriken Catapult (SCat) (x12)
1 Weapon Platform @ [15] Pts
Scatter Laser (SctL)
1 Spiritseer (Warlock) @ [46] Pts
Psyker; Conceal ; Fleet; Spiritseer Upgrade; Rune Armour (RAmr); Shuriken Pistol (Sp); Witchblade (WB)
1 WP Conceal @ [0] Pts

2 Shining Spears @ 132 Pts
Unit Type: Jetbike Infantry; Turbo-boosters; Eldar Jetbike (EJB); Laser Lance (LL); TL Shuriken Catapult (TL-Scat) (x2)
1 Shining Spears Exarch @ [62] Pts
Unit Type: Jetbike Infantry; Turbo-boosters; Eldar Jetbike (EJB); Laser Lance (LL); Shuriken Cannon (SCan) (x1)

2 Shining Spears @ 132 Pts
Unit Type: Jetbike Infantry; Turbo-boosters; Eldar Jetbike (EJB); Laser Lance (LL); TL Shuriken Catapult (TL-Scat) (x2)
1 Shining Spears Exarch @ [62] Pts
Unit Type: Jetbike Infantry; Turbo-boosters; Eldar Jetbike (EJB); Laser Lance (LL); Shuriken Cannon (SCan) (x1)

2 Shining Spears @ 132 Pts
Unit Type: Jetbike Infantry; Turbo-boosters; Eldar Jetbike (EJB); Laser Lance (LL); TL Shuriken Catapult (TL-Scat) (x2)
1 Shining Spears Exarch @ [62] Pts
Unit Type: Jetbike Infantry; Turbo-boosters; Eldar Jetbike (EJB); Laser Lance (LL); Shuriken Cannon (SCan) (x1)

1 Wraithlord @ 155 Pts
Unit Type: Monstrous Creature; Fearless; WraithSight; Flamer (x2); Bright Lance (BL); Missile Launcher (ML)

1 Wraithlord @ 155 Pts
Unit Type: Monstrous Creature; Fearless; WraithSight; Flamer (x2); Bright Lance (BL); Missile Launcher (ML)

1 Wraithlord @ 155 Pts
Unit Type: Monstrous Creature; Fearless; WraithSight; Flamer (x2); Bright Lance (BL); Missile Launcher (ML)

Total Roster Cost: 1995

I personally don't think that the Harlies fit the list incredibly well, I think you would be better off dropping the 3 squads of them, adding an avatar to help those ld 8 guardians out and provide some counter assault for your gunline, and then using the rest of the points to bulk up the shining spears squads a little bit.

So, you really want to spend 160 points to help 160 points of guardians stay on the board?

If Harlequins, Shining Spears, and Wraithlords aren't counter-assault...what makes +2 SP better than 5 Harlies?

I guess the point is lost...

I don't think the shining spears fit it either really but not sure what should replace them.

Here's my pet non-snakes on a plane/etc list. I do use Eldrad, but oh well.

Avatar
Eldrad
4 x 10 guardians with brightlances
3 x 3 vypers, two shuriken cannons each
2 x 3 warwalkers, two shuriken cannons each
1 x 3 warwalkers, two scatterlasers each
1 x 10 Harlequins, shadowseer, 5 kisses

Concept: Walk Avatar, 40 guardians, and the Harlequins right up the middle and start shooting tanks. Dare anyone to get close. Stay in the fearless range.

Keep the vypers and warwalkers back a bit, with Eldrad there to guide two and doom an enemy unit.

We're seeing at 24", the potential for 54 S6 shots, with enough brightlances to slow down most higher Str vehicles.

You still lose to a monolith but such is life. Maybe the Avatar will melta it.

Woot Avatar Melta. lol

No Avatar = auto loss to pods

lol you think?

How do fearless guardians help?

You setup in anti-pod formation, they shoot the guardians...and who cares?

You counterattack with Harlies and Shining Spears.

Autoloss?

An Avatar makes Guardians 100% better. I wouldn't say it's an auto loss but I'd say you're not getting the best out of the points for your Guardians.

If we're making lists here's a variation on my "standard" list, I included Eldrad since Longshot did and because marching lists are a perfect time to do it.

Avatar
Eldrad

Scorpions (10, infiltrating)

Scatterlaser, Conceal Guardians x2 (14 bodies total)
Pathfinders (6)
Dire Avengers (10)

Swooping Hawks (6)
Vypers w/ EML x2

Wraithlords w/ EML and BL x2
D-Cannons w/ Embolden (3)

I've never used Eldrad but would I would do here is guide D-Cannons (normally I move them up 6" first turn) to re-roll scatter and fortune Guardians. When the Shuricats are in range I would guide, fortune and doom as necessary or maybe Mind War and doom/ eldritch. Note that Guardians march TOWARDS the enemy, their gun is only 12" and they like to use it .

I prefer Scorpions over Harlies just because. They infiltrate, I like them. That's it really. I also have the models.

On second glance the D-Cannons don't really need Embolden but if the cannons die which they invariably do the little mini storm squad is fun to have running around.

The problem is that any pod list worth its salt runs a librarian with fear. So as soon as he lands half your army goes running.

Eldrad is a must-have in a footslogging Eldar army.
To increase the survivability of the Eldar army, an Avatar is rather effective due to his large fearless bubble.
Take some Guardian squads to benefit from this bubble.
Your footsloggers give the enemy a focus. Therefore, I would add some mobile elements to intercept unit threatening your front ranks, like Shining Spears or Warp Spiders.

As a foot slogging Eldar player, I really think you underestimate just how much the Avatar is needed. Concealed Guardians (especially w/o Fortune) are just not that tough to bring down to non scoring status.

Scatterlasers, while good, are not huge threats against Power Armor, thus losing you the long range battle. (6 Dev Squads 3 w/ four missile Launchers and 3 w/ four heavy bolters will ruin this Eldar build).

While I like Maugan Ra, I am having a hard time dropping the Avatar or Eldrad with this particular army build. Runes of Warding has become so important for my army in my local gaming enviornment. That ability alone is wrecking mulitple Chaos builds I face off against. Your area may be different, however.

I do like the 3 Harlie squad builds combined with Shining Spears.

However, I think you could stand to lose one squad of Shining Spears and 1 Guardian from each squad to give you an Avatar. You won't lose one unit of counter assault as you have the Avatar (granted, mobility is lost) but you have a large gain with the Fearless bubble.

While the list looks reasonable on paper, I think you'd have a harder time winning with it vs. other min/max armies. Local, fluffy armies, sure, no problem.

Sarigar wrote:Scatterlasers, while good, are not huge threats against Power Armor, thus losing you the long range battle. (6 Dev Squads 3 w/ four missile Launchers and 3 w/ four heavy bolters will ruin this Eldar build).

Scatterlasers are crap compared to the old Starcannon. With the new blast rules I might start taking Missile Launchers in my Guardian squads.

The Starcannon is now gimped by the Plasma Cannon and its no partials. boo.

Sorry, I got over the whole Starcannon issue long ago.

I'd not sold on anything with blast rules just yet. The copy of the rules I acquired one simply rolls a scatter dice; no roll to hit is required. I'm waiting on my final judgement until a finalize copy of the new rules become available.

But, if taking new rules into account with a footslogging Eldar list: Warwalkers can be very, very useful.

Sarigar wrote:Sorry, I got over the whole Starcannon issue long ago.

I thought I had too, but I find Scatterlasers disapointing when shooting at MEQ. 4 shots, 2 hit ... wowzers.

Starcannon was always good for one or two dead alongside the shuriken cats, definately two with guide.

but c'est la vie

You guys are funny. The Avatar is the biggest POS points sink in the list.

I love seeing him on the board. I could care less if he makes Eldar fearless. Being fearless means nothing if you're DEAD.

That's 10% of your army not doing anything but cheering your army on.

Eldrad doesn't bring 200 points of killy to your army. When I see him + the Avatar I laugh my ass off, and crunch the other army. It's just not a good combination against optimized armies. You lose almost a quarter to a third of your points on cheerleaders.

And in all that your response to Fear of the Darkness is...?

The Avatar's fearless ability is very useful, and he's a decent counterassault unit. His melta can occasionally score some points too.

Anyone who thinks that the Avatar is a POS in a footslogging Eldar army is certainly an idiot.

Eldrad and an Avatar is not "a good combination against optimized armies." That's funny, because that is the build that won the Gladiator event at Adepticon last year. I guess that guy just doesn't know what he is doing, or maybe Stelek doesn't.

Darrian

Silly, he laughs his ass off. Rather than look at constructive thoughts, Stelek prefers to get on his high horse. No one can beat Stelek; he has every army, every combination, never ever loses and is the bestest player in the universe...

If you've got players that place the Avatar in front of 20+ heavy weapons to be DEAD, then they deserve what they get. It also is an indicator of the skill level you play against.

I like the three-Harlie squad idea. At first I thought it would be a bit too points-heavy, but given two rounds of shooting from all three plus possible pins, it's really an interesting choice that might pay off.

And although the others are right about Avatar/Eldrad being optimal here IMO, Maugan Ra is thematic. This list would be a lot of fun to play against, Stelek. Nice build- not top-tier power, but also not same old same old. I'd like to hear how this does if you get a chance to playtest soon.

Maybe I'm missing the obvious, but why are you buying Exarchs for the Spears, but sans powers?

Thanks Savnock, appreciate adult responses. I put the Exarchs in to get BS5 Shuricannons with JSJ. *Every* squad needs to add it's bit during shooting.

The spear squads are small, so it's unlikely with only 3 guys you'll be able to escape combat intact. So use them as last ditch effort guys, or support for the Harlies. They're also good last turn objective grabbers, but I'm sure the 'theme' of the army was missed by some and always will be.

Doesn't have Eldrad/Avatar/Tri-Falcon, so it must just suck...yeah, I'm sure being different and complementary means nothing on the tournament scene. How many games ya get with your power armies? One? Great job, fellas. I've learned not to do that at my FLGS, and I don't need to do it to win at tourneys. Step outside the box...

You blew off previous posts which were constructive with your piss poor attitude and response. I don't think you will warrant 'adult' responses in the future.

At which point was I unclear that this was a build request without the usual Eldar 'power' units in it?

Is that too much to grasp?

Am I not allowed to express my opinion because you disagree with it?

Now I see why everyone wants me to just send them a list privately, because of people like you taking every chance to insult me gets in the way of list creation.

Grow up.

Stelek, it's not an insult or a personal attack every time someone expresses a criticism or a concern with the functionality of one of your lists, or a tactic you describe.

A footslogging Eldar army without an Avatar is vulnerable to Fear of the Darkness. When people raise that issue (or other issues, in other threads), and you choose to completely ignore the point and label their posts "worthless", you're deliberately antagonizing them, and INVITING attack.

This is called trolling, and this is a warning.

Darrian, I've got to warn you too for flaming.

Stelek,

The avatar is definitely not a waste of points, especially in gunline. You should consider dropping the warlocks from the guardian squads, and you essentially have enough points to field him. It shouldn't be too hard to get these squads into cover anyway, and then you have fearless squads.

You probably underestimate being fearless. He also provides a good counter-assault role, and he's scoring. Phoenix lords don't score, and they don't have invulnerable saves.

I'm also not a huge fan of your harlequin squads. I'm sure it depends on the environment you play in, but a solo elite inquisitor with a null rod, or any kind of mobile flamer will absolutely destroy those. 156 points in a 5 man squad seems extremely risky, especially when they only get a 5+ and there's no fortune in your list.

I think that's probably my major concern with the list: there's no farseer support. You essentially have a very non-mobile, shooty element (guardians+WL), some mid range shooty with counter-assault (harlies, Maugan Ra), and then the 9 shining spears.

I don't think it would be very hard for a shooty list to out shoot you. You have something around 30 str 6 shots (a lot of them bs3), and 6 str 8 shots.

That's extremely unimpressive for 2000 points, and the only durable units you have are 3 wraithlords, which SAFH marines should have no problem with, given you can't fortune them.

I think the list you posted most likely having problem with any sort of drop podding marines (fear, and flame templates ruin you), zilla nids (not enough high str ap3 or better), or any dedicated shooty lists (as they can out shoot you and don't have much to fear other than your shooting).

I have no idea where this mech lists use Eldrad/Avatar idea comes from, but I really would like it to stop. There is no logical reason for either of them in a mech list. They will both be quickly left behind and lack any relevant function in the list. People seem to only be getting half the information and acting on it.

Stelek you have yet to explain how you plan to beat lists that can force large numbers of fall back tests.
-95% of pod lists carry a librarian with Fear of the Darkness
-All Mech Eldar lists will gladly tank shock you off the board
-Zilla Nids with choir basically force a fall back on every test you take.

-All of these are tournament viable lists that any decent list needs to be prepared for.
-And calling an Avatar overpriced is a bit silly when your using a phoenix lord. Tell me one important funtion that it fufills that the Avatar can't do for fewer points.

If your only aversion to Eldrad is that he isn't specifically a 'killy' unit, then you have way to one-dimentional a mindset. Hell, we can even look at him as a killy unit by assuming he just mind war twice a turn. Is a unit that can pick out 2 heavy weapons troopers a turn good? I would say its better than a vindicare assassin. But add on to that that he can still cast a 3rd psychic power each turn, brings additional psychic defenses, and allows several units to redeploy at the start of a game and you have an excellent unit.
On top of that, count the number of units in your army that benefit greatly from the Farseers abilities. The harlequins, shining spears, and (hypothetical) avatar all love fortune. Guide is a great way to boost the kill power of the spears, and the number of rends for harlies. It also has limited application with Guardians at short ranges. I have yet to ever play a game where I did not feel that Eldrad made his points back. (since IC protection means he rarely dies anyway)

And of all people, you're playing the "your all powergamers who will have no opponents" card?

IntoTheRain wrote:If your only aversion to Eldrad is that he isn't specifically a 'killy' unit, then you have way to one-dimentional a mindset. Hell, we can even look at him as a killy unit by assuming he just mind war twice a turn. Is a unit that can pick out 2 heavy weapons troopers a turn good? I would say its better than a vindicare assassin. But add on to that that he can still cast a 3rd psychic power each turn, brings additional psychic defenses, and allows several units to redeploy at the start of a game and you have an excellent unit.
On top of that, count the number of units in your army that benefit greatly from the Farseers abilities. The harlequins, shining spears, and (hypothetical) avatar all love fortune. Guide is a great way to boost the kill power of the spears, and the number of rends for harlies. It also has limited application with Guardians at short ranges. I have yet to ever play a game where I did not feel that Eldrad made his points back. (since IC protection means he rarely dies anyway)

And of all people, you're playing the "your all powergamers who will have no opponents" card?

Careful, I DO believe that Eldrads Mind war counts as a shooting attack. Targetting one unit per turn. 2 heavys in a dev squad possibly. You shouldnt be killing two heavies in two seperate tac squads however.

Also, Guide doesnt help in Hand to Hand at all. Guide only effects to-hit rolls made during the shooting phase. Other than that, I agree with everything the last THREE posters have said.

"Anyone who thinks that the Avatar is a POS in a footslogging Eldar army is certainly an idiot. "

Gee. Really fething constructive. I'm inviting attack by saying I don't like the Avatar? I'm not allowed to make broad sweeping generalizations like you guys are, is that it?

"An Avatar makes Guardians 100% better."
"A footslogging Eldar army without an Avatar is vulnerable to Fear of the Darkness."

Maybe not everyone thinks the way I do, where you build a list around a theme and stick with it.

You think FOTD is an issue? Fine, I don't. I especially don't think it'll be meaningful when it's removed from the game.

I'm not inviting anyone to attack me cause I don't fething like it one bit. You saying so is damn rude, you don't know me in the slightest. Personally I'd as soon Darrian never commented with his usual bullsh*t posts into any of my threads ever again, he's gets away with insults directed straight at me and I get crap for speaking my mind? Like I told you before, double standards are horsesh*t. Who'd I call a idiot? Yeah, I didn't. I expressed my opinion and labeled it as such. Don't like my opinion, fine. I even said WHY I think the Eldrad/Avatar combo is crap, but where was the 'intelligent' debate? Nope, not one fething sign of it was there? Just more of the bashing of me personally.

Here's one: I've never run a Librarian with FOTD in a drop pod army. Know why? It's a gimmick. It doesn't work on fearless units, and I think it too is crap and I think very little of players who bring it and call their list an "all arounder" when it's got a very expensive HQ that doesn't DO a damn thing.

Did any of you even read the FIRST LINE OF MY POST?

"Well I've had a few people ask me how to make a viable Eldar list without resorting to Eldrad, Falcons, or various other 'standard' units."

Does the Avatar 'shoot'? Does Eldrad? Go ahead, tell me again how Eldrad runs for 2 turns ahead of the army to get a lascannon trooper in range of mind war, or better yet how you get the marine player to be a dumbass and run his guys into range for you.

I didn't EVER say this was for a tournament. Did I? Where and when did I say so?

Someone wanted a list not designed BY donkey-cave power gamers, FOR donkey-cave power gamers, that ONLY donkey-cave power gamers would actually PLAY!

That's what this is. You play your power armies against whoever you want to, SOME people don't want to.

I'm the 5% who don't run Librarians with Fear and Drop Pods. I also get people willing to play me again because I can manage to turn off the donkey-cave power gamer.

Maybe you should clue in.

Since everyone seems to have missed the FIRST LINE OF THIS POST especially the crowd that just gets off bashing me, here you go:

Stelek wrote:Well I've had a few people ask me how to make a viable Eldar list without resorting to Eldrad, Falcons, or various other 'standard' units.

If Eldrad, the Avatar, and Farseers aren't "standard" units--well what the feth is since I see them in almost every Eldar army, including my own?

Why are you commenting on units I was asked NOT to bring, and then telling me I'm the fething idiot not running the standard units when I've specifically said the above?

i feel like i might catch on fire just stepping into this thread, but here we go...

not running eldrad or the avatar is something i look at doing a lot. almost everyone out at my LGS expect this to happen. sure it can still pull off a few victories if the know its coming still but the thing i like about the eldar is how many different kinds of armies you can run. i actually took a walking army to ard boyz, won first at my LGS and placed around the middle of the next leg of the comp.(my first tourney ) i took the avatar, and a farseer, not eldrad. i took the avatar because in a walking army that is based on LD8 you need to have something to help that out.

or, get around the 8LD or use it differently.

this is more what i would do for a walking army, assuming 1850 or 2500. less than those points and the army needs re-tooling to work properly.

4 squads of guardians, 2x scatter lasers\2x lances
2 squads of dire avengers
2-3 wraithlords(eml & bl)
2 squads of spiders
infiltrating scorpions
autarch on bike
doom\guide farseer
harles behind lords


your basic walking wall. use lords to cover harles until they can jump out and surprise something. anti-tank kill tanks, rest kill troops. this army can be a bit degenerative though expecially with templates and large blasts....

my ard boyz list was this

avatar
doom\guide farseer
2x 15 man squads of guardians with lasers and conceal locks
2x 10 man dire avengers ss,bladestorm,power. weap
2 wraithlords
falcon with 6x harles
serpent with 6x dragons
serpent with 6x scorpions.
5x spiders

kind of a hybrid army, with stuff from both popular builds.

now if you wanted to make a competative walking army that wasnt the uber-cheese, but still good...

avatar
fortune\guide farseer (not eldrad)
2 guardians squads, 2x lances
2 dire avenger squads
2x jet bike squads
2x 6 man squads of harles
2 or 3 lords
couple of squads of spiders


by now you may notice something. i include spiders in all walking lists. if you are going to run the most not mobile eldar army you can, these guys can do wonders. then can grab objectives pretty eaisily or just cause hell with their S6 weapons to everything short of a squad of termi's or a landraider\monolith.

i run a fair amount of walking eldar armies and they can be very strong, i had a 15 win streak with a walking army that had no eldrad in it. the only problem with walking armies for eldar is that they can be degenerative. taking the avatar out of the picture and making an army around knowing this can soften the "degenerativness" of the army, but not stop it.

IMO at least..

Resorting to and utilizing are entirely different concepts. To equivocate them is very sloppy as it suggests a very simplistic concept of unit usage. While the concept of unit usage is relatively underdeveloped in 40k, it is by far complex enough to give units nuance besides myopic usages, and as such units can have complex usages that do not require reliance but are dependent upon synergistic relationships of units. Much of he usage of Avatars as suggested by others has been of this type. He quite obviously is neither only a fearless bubble, or a charging monstrous beater, but can subtly shift between these two roles. This is far outside the purview of the lists restrictions, so your disagreement seems very contrarian.

As for the list itself, I have disagreements with many of the numbers, and dislike a few of the unit choices, but I feel this is because of basic disagreements in how you and I view synergies. There is a lot of metagame dependent choices within this list, many of the overloads seem very questionable for different metagames, especially metagames of highly varying play quality or skill quality.

And don't play the martyr, its just sad to see a grown man get defensive because some punk on the internet called him naughty words. In all likelyhood you are a great guy to play against and get to play tons of games per week, but those interpersonal social skills don't carry over into the internet, with the timeless nature of posting carrying a damning level of objective history keeping, and the lack of inflection and rhetorical devices dependent upon it forcing the use of very fallacious devicage that is easily seen through or the abandonment of certain platitudes that smooth over other situations. It also doesn't carry emotion meaning that the use of rhetorical devices to carry such is necessary. Such devices can be crude in the hands of the average writer, leading to the whining, cringing, writhing debate we have seen in this thread, with the overinflated drama contained. You may think you are a great guy to play against, but you come off as a whinging arrogant jock who's opinion is right because its your opinion, and who is "such a great guy to have as a friend, aren't I". Your massive avoidance of objective benchmarks casts suspicion upon your opinion as it is mostly hearsay and vague conceptual talk with little logical construct or mathematical analysis to match. This would be fine if your choices where understood, but some are not, and you have to use meaningful tools of compelling us to believe in your conceptual construct because your evidence consists of "try it 'til you figure it out".

You most definately are not an innocent party in this mess, and the pretense that Darrian was committing some terrible sin against you and not the truth of he broke a rule and was a jerk is the kind of pissy rhetorical bullpuckey that I find appalling. You are a grown man for godsakes, if you can't take someone calling you a bad name on the internet, what good is any of your maturity. Stop being a pariah, just call him a jackass for being one, move on and explain to us why your ideas are right. I am tired of this sappy moaning Stelek appears in every thread, pisses people off, gets offended and goes routine. If you disagree with peoples assessments, put up, or shut up.