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I have the itch to start Eldar, and mech was the way to go in 4th edition, with dire avengers as troops.

In 5th edition though, I am hearing rumblings that mech eldar will be dead because of the skimmer nerf.

Thoughts, or advice?

Primary reasons I want to start Eldar: Dire Avenger models, fast/mobile army.

The Politically Correct Answer: Play the army you want to play, and don't worry about how "good" or powerful it is.

The Hardcore answer: Yes.

The most likely true answer: 5th ed hurts falcons pretty badly, but with the increased reliance on troops DA will get better, and the Eldar codex has some great units to add to your core (WLs, Walkers, bikes)

The personal advice answer: Don't buy anything new until 5th edition drops.

You need to be able to build an army that consists mostly of troop choices. Otherwise you'll have to wipe out the entire enemy army each game. You could try taking tons and tons of Guardian Jetbikes with Warlocks. I don't think Dire Avengers play any part in it now or ever.

Not the way I see things shaking out, Therion.

Falcons are still more survivable than other vehicles, but they aren't worth what your going to be paying for them.

I actually work at a local game store and get a pretty hefty discount... plus we can still get the box of 3 falcons for $90... I would only end up spending about $55 for it, before tax.

$18 falcons is hard to say no to

It does seem that Wave Serpents are getting a boost though. Shoot 10 harlies 30 inches up the board, It doesn't matter if it gets destroyed, no more entanglement. Hide behind the wreck, and charge next turn. Do the with three units and see what happens.

Star Engines are going to be a great upgrade now. The difference between 24" and 36" inches of movement is much less significant than deference between 18" and 30". Eldar vehicles can almost go twice as fast as any other vehicles in the game.

I also predict a rise in the Firm Prism because it lends itself much more nicely to sitting in 4+ cover in your deployment zone getting guided/fortuned than the Falcon does. It's also cheaper.

I don't think mech eldar will be tier 1 anymore, but it will still be very competitive.

-Leo037

Cypher037 wrote:

I also predict a rise in the Firm Prism because it lends itself much more nicely to sitting in 4+ cover in your deployment zone getting guided/fortuned than the Falcon does.

Rumor says that any skimmer that ends up in/over terrain must take a dangerous terrain test.

Falcons will still be very good thanks to all the upgrades you can put on them.

You may not get auto glance from moving fast or be able to rapid fire under them, but you have things other skimmers do not-a shield, a holo field, extra armor to keep you Moving(spirit stone) and of course those star engines now make you the fastest show on the table.

Whats going to be scary are the iyanden styled lists. I havn't playtested any yet but I can see these getting scary.

Cypher037 wrote:It does seem that Wave Serpents are getting a boost though. Shoot 10 harlies 30 inches up the board, It doesn't matter if it gets destroyed, no more entanglement. Hide behind the wreck, and charge next turn. Do the with three units and see what happens.
-Leo037

Harlies cannot get wave serpents. No sir. If they could I would be running the 30 harlie waveserpent rush now, just for kicks

Eldrad, Avatar, 40 guardians with brightlances, 30 striking scorpions, 3 Wraithlords with EML/Brightlance.

That's my pick at around 1850.

Longshot wrote:

Cypher037 wrote:It does seem that Wave Serpents are getting a boost though. Shoot 10 harlies 30 inches up the board, It doesn't matter if it gets destroyed, no more entanglement. Hide behind the wreck, and charge next turn. Do the with three units and see what happens.
-Leo037

Harlies cannot get wave serpents. No sir. If they could I would be running the 30 harlie waveserpent rush now, just for kicks

They can too

You take three squads of guardians with EML/B.Lances and Wave Serpents. Since anyone can use anyone else transport now, the space clowns hop aboard and fly away into the sunset.

From what I can tell Falcons wont be ruined, they just wont be infruriatingly broken.

I dont like using Eldar grav tanks too often under the current ruleset as they are blatantly unfair. I welcome the presumed changes.

What people forget is that there is nothing 'wrong' with the Falcon as is. People take Preds without holofields, why not a Falcon?

Orlanth wrote:From what I can tell Falcons wont be ruined, they just wont be infruriatingly broken.

I dont like using Eldar grav tanks too often under the current ruleset as they are blatantly unfair. I welcome the presumed changes.

What people forget is that there is nothing 'wrong' with the Falcon as is. People take Preds without holofields, why not a Falcon?

The Predator is 100 points (Autocannon, HBs, Pintle Stormbolter) and the Falcon (Pulse Laser, Scatter Laser, Shuriken Cannon, Spirit Stones, Holo-Field, Vectored Engines) is over 200. If I'm paying twice the points for similar firepower, I expect considerably more survivability.

Keep in mind the Falcon loses most of its speed advantages in 5th. Being able to transport is nice - but it doesn't justify being twice the price. The Monolith is 25 points more and in 5th is every bit as unkillable to Sisters, Orks and other armies as the Falcon is now - and it has more force-multiplying special rules to boot. The Chaos Land Raider is 15 points more than a well-equipped Falcon, has AV14 all around, more transport capacity and much better firepower.

I'll still be fielding my Falcons because they're beautiful models. They'll be like Land Raiders are now - pretty center-pieces, but a points-sink in competitive play.

I know it's alot to ask but I wish GW would lower the cost of all gav tanks by about 30 pts or so. Since we are no longer paying for the protection of a glance table.

Remember that Codex: Eldar, like the Ork, Blood Angel, Dark Angel, and Chaos codicies were supposedly written with the new edition in mind.

Does that mean in the next codex tau we get a pts reduction in our vehicles?

Nothing wrong with Tau vehicles, and Eldar vehicles will still be worth their points. The perception that they are "no-brainers" is just that, a perception, and one with little truth behind it to boot.

Im pretty sure that Eldar will stay a competitive army. Thats because Eldar are so diverse that no matter how the core rules get changed, there will allways be an Eldar unit benefitting from it.

My advice is to avoid extreme armyconcepts with multiple units of the same kind, like 3 Falcons. Better buy two Prisms and some magnets. You will be able to field Falcons OR Prisms then. Btw Prisms might become even better whith their immunity to "defensive weapon nerf".

Then Id get a single Serpent for its another beautiful model and the box provides weapon options you might need for your Falcons. Propably take the box that contains a Serpent and 5 Avengers for thouse are almost free.

5 Pathfinders are another beatiful and powerful unit that is likely to stay good with the new scout rules and emphasis on (resilient) troops.

A box of 3 Shining Spears also is good value for money. You can use the Exarch as a Lance Autarch HQ, or magnetize the Lances to switch into a unit of Guardian Jetbikes who will likely stay good in 5th.

What I woud buy as a currently strong army of good looking models that likely stay competitive:
-2 Prisms
-1 Serpent+5 Avengers
-10 Avengers
-5 Pathfinders
-3 Spears

The thing that made mech eldar armies so powerful:

1: Mobility
2: Resilient models (Falcons, Bikes, Path Finders)
3: Punch (Harlies, Dragons, Spears)

Well falcons aren't unkillable and you still pay alot of point for them. Serpents have become a decent choice with their force fields. According to the pdf glances won't kill vehicles. Harlies can borrow other people transports so we might start seeing 30 serpent mounted harlies running around. bikes are still good. I think your skimmers can now screen for each other. Now that you aren't taking three falcons you can take some decent heavy support like waithlords and war walkers.

I think mech elda armies will do okay, but I think they'll use more serpents than falcons.

edit: I accidentally had this stuck in there

Cumulative glances will kill vehicles. Glancing hits against open-topped vehicles or with AP1 weapons will have a chance of killing the vehicle outright.

Cypher037 wrote:It does seem that Wave Serpents are getting a boost though. Shoot 10 harlies 30 inches up the board, It doesn't matter if it gets destroyed, no more entanglement. Hide behind the wreck, and charge next turn. Do the with three units and see what happens.

Star Engines are going to be a great upgrade now. The difference between 24" and 36" inches of movement is much less significant than deference between 18" and 30". Eldar vehicles can almost go twice as fast as any other vehicles in the game.

I also predict a rise in the Firm Prism because it lends itself much more nicely to sitting in 4+ cover in your deployment zone getting guided/fortuned than the Falcon does. It's also cheaper.

I don't think mech eldar will be tier 1 anymore, but it will still be very competitive.

I'm with Cypher on all points above- especially the Fire Prism's increase in usefulness, and the badassness of Wave Serpents.

The change in defensive weapon strength and weapons on cruising vehicles means that skimmer tanks will be either transports or gunships, but never really both. The Serpent on one hand and the Prism on the other will do better than the Falcon does in each role. There might still be a place in a Mech force for a Falcon (carrying transportless units from the get-go, pumping out max. shots from the backfield while holding a reserve unit just in case), but the other tanks just got comparatively better.

And that's not even mentioning the ability to Fortune vehicle saves. That alone will make the Prism more worthwhile, as keeping Farseer support near a pair of them will be relatively easy.

For Serpents, the new movement and save rules mean they will customarily get the "Farseer starting line" treatment, deploying next to a Seer, and firing their Star Engines once Fortuned, to drop their squad for a turn 2 assault. I think I'm going to work a checkered flag into the paint on each of my Seers. Eldar will be like the Sascha Baron Cohen character in "Talladega Nights": "You haf made me speell my macchiatto, mon-keigh! Now you weel eat le Banshee Sword!"

The only major change for these vehicles is less shuricannon shots, as the points can now be spent better elsewhere. If you were smart, yours are removable anyways. I might keep them on the Serpents to make them tempting targets after squad deployment, though. If destroyed transports don't count on that shortsighted VP table, empty transports are about to get a whole lot more useful. Please dear Jeebus, let skimmers be able to ram like other vehicles... Oh, and moving at those speeds, VE are still a must for my transports. It's worth the 20 points to get the CC troops to objectives, especially if your vehicular shooting has been cut in half.

Speaking of which, holding out hope that the design team will see how bad S4 defensive weapons are is unlikely to help us. if the rule is adjusted, it's likely to be the S5 rather than S6, as the intention is obviously to nerf Eldar skimmers (other explanations gladly accepted!). A change to S5 will screw less other armies (Tau, IG tanks, etc.) while still neutralizing the effectiveness of the Space Pansies.

And Dire Avengers will indeed get better in Mech forces, because their transports got better. I already field 2 units with PW/SS, Bladestorm and Defend to serve as anvil units and a dump-and-spray squad. They function really well in concert with Spears or Harlies, and will probably be apired with a Serpent-mounted Aspect in my new list. Combined with 2x3 jetbikes (which will replace Spiders in 5th in most Mech armies), the Avengers are a serious challenge to the inevitable infantry horde armies. We will have to be more careful about isolating/softening those armies than ever before, but we can still beat them based on mobility and almost-guaranteed troop delivery.

Mech Eldar is perhaps not going to be tier-1 anymore in the hands of players that don't plan very carefully (self often included), but it will still be deadly in the hands of those who do. And look at the bright side: while we may be getting screwed over a barrel for our Falcons, cutting them out leaves lots of points for other units that are now more effective. I'm not being pollyanna here, but I think we've still got something to work with.

skyth wrote:
Rumor says that any skimmer that ends up in/over terrain must take a dangerous terrain test.

Yes, but you don't have to be in the terrain, just partially (over 50%?) behind it to get the obscured rule, right? This would be a problem if our tanks' main armament was mounted centrally in their turrets, but the side-mounted cannons are perfect for playing peekaboo. I'm thinking about how to get my Prism cannons mounted further out to the side, as I'm about to redo their turrets with stronger magnets anyways.

These rules are going to encourage more cheap-trick modelling. Oh well, better get onto it before the noobs catch on.