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I was just wondering if anyone out there has ever tried a true "vanilla" list of Ultramarines? What I am getting at is this:

Captain with Power Sword and Bolter (HQ)

Chaplin with Jump Pack (HQ)

TAC Squad with Heavy Bolter, Flamer, and Power Fist (Troop)
-Rhino Transport with Extra Armor and extra Pintle-mounted Storm Bolter

TAC Squad with Heavy Bolter, Flamer, and Power Fist (Troop)
-Rhino Transport with Extra Armor and extra Pintle-mounted Storm Bolter

TAC Squad with Heavy Bolter and Meltagun (Troop)

Assault Squad with Power Fist and Meltabombs (Fast Attack)

Devastator Squad with 4 X Missile Launchers (Heavy Support)

All this for ~1,500 Points.

This is basically 1/2 a Company of Ultramarines. The PF's are there. The Transports will get Marines to objectives. I have a Chaplin leading some Assault Marines for trouble making / counter charge. 5 full size scoring units. Captain joins the 3rd TAC squad in order to defend the Devastators. This gives me a good fire base with some counter charge.

The problem is that I see this list being defeated by Eldar and Nids in assault. IG and Tao with shoot the fire out of it. Orcs and Chaos will both shoot and assault it. How can it win? It is super fluffy, but really not all that great on the table. Any ideas?

By the way, I am looking forward with this list. I built it with the DA Codex, as we all know that this is where Marines are heading.

One more thing: I don't want to by and more stuff. I have enough miniatures to make 6 TAC / DEV squads. I have 2 Assault Squads. I have a Dread and parts for a Predator Des/Annil. I even have 5 Termi's with an Assault Cannon, and 5 Termi's with Lightning Claws. I really don't want to buy any more stuff.

I was just wondering if anyone has seen a list like this, and if it sucks as bad as it has tested to be.

Thanks.

Part of the problem with the list is what I would call dead weight in most of your squads. Having a heavy weapon and a close range assault weapon in the same squad is going to result in only one of them being effective at any time. You are also paying 30 points min for each of those fists in the tac squads which are not going to be effective.

What I would do is drop the Tac Squads to have 6 men with a Las Cannon and Plasma gun in it. Drop the vet sqt from those units and get a razorback for each squad (still keeping with the theme) you now have the option to get either a heavy bolter or TL Las cannon on it. Make sure you have both Extra Armor and Smoke on that razorback. Give the Captain a jump pack and a pair of lightning claws this will give him good mobility and the ability to deal with higher toughness foes. He for the most part is there for leadership. You should also have some points left for a Land Speeder or even a Predator Destructor.

Thanks for your reply. Here are some of my thoughts:

1. We will no longer have the min/max 6 man Las/Plas squads with the SM Redux. Just like in the BA and DA Codex, you have to take 10 man squads in order to take a heavy weapon. So, the whole min/max thing will work right now, but I am thinking long term.

2. I could put Lascannons in the TAC squads, but that would split their fire. I would have to make a choice of which target I wanted to fire at, rather than make a squad anti-tank or anti-troop. With the HB and Flamer, I can focus on knocking out those troop choices, while my DEVs and Assault Marines focus on tanks. The PF, which is 15 + 15 points now, and soon to be 25 points total, is there for close combat threats.

3. Skills will be out the window as well, so you can not Furious Charge to give you equal "I" scores with Nids and Eldar. So, the will strike first, destroying half your squad before you even have a chance to fight back.

4. Even with the whole min/max thing, IG and Tao can still out shoot you. My IG list, which is not meant to be cheesy at all, has 8 Lascannons, 6 Heavy Bolters, 4 Autocannons, and 4 Meltaguns. It is an all infantry army. With a BS of 3, HALF of that stuff should hit its target. That means you can take out a 10 man TAC squad per turn. If you are doing the whole min/max thing, they might just drop 2 squads.

5. I HATE plasma weapons. I can roll a "1" on dice like no one else I know. No joke. I actually rolled 10 dice, 10 times. I rolled over 30 "1"s. That's a LOT of dead marines. I stay away from plasma.

6. I wanted to do a "fluffy" list. 6 man Las/Plas squads, combined with 8 man Assault squads, is not "fluffy". It's a design to win at RTs. Show up with an army like that, and your sportsmanship score is "0". That's because it is cheesy. I've played 40K since 92. Rogue Trader days. Even then, Marines were in 10 man squads.

7. I don't want to buy Land Speeders, as I already have a whole Space Marine army. I don't need ACs to win. That's why I only have 1 in my Terminator squad.

Now, I'm not trying to be mean. I really do appreciate the post. I just don't do cheesy. I can min/max with the best of them. I just don't want to.

I was wondering if, by using the future rules and codex format, can an Ultramarines army be fluffy and good? I don't want to dominate the table. I just want a fighting chance. Can it be done with the list I have presented? Has anyone seen it done before? Can Space Marines be tough without min/max units or AC's?

Heavy Bolters and Flamers are especially efficient against hordes; the Power Fist veterans in those squads are not. I understand you want to use the Rhinos to deliver the 'Fists and Flamers quickly, but then the Heavy Bolter is useless. Swap the Rhino and Power Fist to the squad with the Meltagun, and swap the Heavy Bolter and Flamer from the squad that now has no Rhino for a Missile Launcher or Lascannon and Plasma Gun. So what if you roll lots of 1's- isn't it more fitting to have all of the special weapons represented? I'd say it's less "fluffy" to have 2 HQ at 1500 points. I think a Librarian is a great all around character, especially for FotA and FotD with the expected increase in horde armies. If you have to keep the captain as a counter charge for the Devastator squad, spring for the Stormbolter.

CaptainLoken wrote:
1. We will no longer have the min/max 6 man Las/Plas squads with the SM Redux. Just like in the BA and DA Codex, you have to take 10 man squads in order to take a heavy weapon. So, the whole min/max thing will work right now, but I am thinking long term.

There is no evidence of that, only speculation and assumption with no support for it at all.

CaptainLoken wrote:
2. I could put Lascannons in the TAC squads, but that would split their fire. I would have to make a choice of which target I wanted to fire at, rather than make a squad anti-tank or anti-troop. With the HB and Flamer, I can focus on knocking out those troop choices, while my DEVs and Assault Marines focus on tanks. The PF, which is 15 + 15 points now, and soon to be 25 points total, is there for close combat threats.

By the time the Flamer will be able to be used in conjunction with the Heavy Bolter chances are you are about to be assaulted by some nasty assault troop. The truth is that a Flamer serves no place in any squad with a heavy weapon, the same goes for a melta gun. Plasma guns are the only solid option for a tactical squad that contains a heavy weapon. How do you come by the 25 points for the powerfist? I have not seen any indication that this is changing yet.

CaptainLoken wrote:
3. Skills will be out the window as well, so you can not Furious Charge to give you equal "I" scores with Nids and Eldar. So, the will strike first, destroying half your squad before you even have a chance to fight back.

Skills going away? I haven't heard anything about this? Is thins another well since the BA and DA rules don't allow for it the marine rules will no longer allow for it assumptions. If so please leave it out as there is nothing at all to base these rumors on.

CaptainLoken wrote:
4. Even with the whole min/max thing, IG and Tao can still out shoot you. My IG list, which is not meant to be cheesy at all, has 8 Lascannons, 6 Heavy Bolters, 4 Autocannons, and 4 Meltaguns. It is an all infantry army. With a BS of 3, HALF of that stuff should hit its target. That means you can take out a 10 man TAC squad per turn. If you are doing the whole min/max thing, they might just drop 2 squads.

you are forgetting that there are things such as target priority and cover that will effect how this is played. I have never had a problem with a Guard Army out shooting me. I can unload a ton of fire power with my list and the Las Plas squads are in the list to deal with tanks and Heavy infantry. I have other things to deal with Light and Medium infantry.

CaptainLoken wrote:
5. I HATE plasma weapons. I can roll a "1" on dice like no one else I know. No joke. I actually rolled 10 dice, 10 times. I rolled over 30 "1"s. That's a LOT of dead marines. I stay away from plasma.

Wow because you said in the last line that half of your IG should hit when they shoot. Given this statement I would say one of those two is incorrect or an exaggeration. Given that the IG statement is based on statistical fact I am thinking that you are exaggerating a bit. My suggestion is get better dice and try again.

CaptainLoken wrote:
6. I wanted to do a "fluffy" list. 6 man Las/Plas squads, combined with 8 man Assault squads, is not "fluffy". It's a design to win at RTs. Show up with an army like that, and your sportsmanship score is "0". That's because it is cheesy. I've played 40K since 92. Rogue Trader days. Even then, Marines were in 10 man squads.

In regards to fluff please see my sig.

6 Man las plas squads are no less common in a tactical organization than 10 man squads that are not optimized for dealing with a single problem. Having a Vet With fist in a shooty squad is no different than having an optimized squad 4 man down. There are casualties that are commonly taken in armies and squad resizing is the result. In no way would a unit ever get rid of its special weapons.

In all my years of playing in RTs and GT I have never received a '0' for having 6 man Las/Plas Squads or even given on to some one who has them. The tactical squads are not what win the game. They just give you a solid firebase that you can base the rest of your army around.

Times have changed since 92 and so has the game and even the backgrounds for the army. Anything you take in an RT/GT list can be justified by writing a small army backgroud story to support your list.

CaptainLoken wrote:
7. I don't want to buy Land Speeders, as I already have a whole Space Marine army. I don't need ACs to win. That's why I only have 1 in my Terminator squad.

Land speeders are much more than a simple assault cannon with AV 10. Its a fast skimmer than can cause you opponenets (even space marines) to fall off the board without a chance to regroup. They can claim objectives force target priority and many other things. for 80 pints (50 without the AC) its a hell of a nice vehicle.

CaptainLoken wrote:
Now, I'm not trying to be mean. I really do appreciate the post. I just don't do cheesy. I can min/max with the best of them. I just don't want to.

I was wondering if, by using the future rules and codex format, can an Ultramarines army be fluffy and good? I don't want to dominate the table. I just want a fighting chance. Can it be done with the list I have presented? Has anyone seen it done before? Can Space Marines be tough without min/max units or AC's?

Whats cheesy? I don't see 6 man Las/Plas Squads cheesy at all, I don't see a Librarian with Fear and Fury cheesy. If the rules allow it than it is not cheesy. Cheese in my opinion is when you take advantage of unintentional rules loopholes to win tournaments. Then and only in that case will I give someone a 0 on their sports score. Was it GWs intention to allow 6 man Las/Plas Squads I think so otherwise they would not have put it in the rule book. They have been around since the 3rd edition codex and did not see fit to change them in the 4th edition one.

No one know for certain if there will be a SM redux in the next 2 years and if that will change to have all marines be 10 man strong to get a heavy weapon. Until there is solid evidence to the fact I would not plan on major changes to the Space Marine Dex. If you call only 4 squads at 6 man in the Army Min/Maxing (this is not min max by the way 5 man would be).

If you want 10 Man squads then do them as such but Las/Plas or Missile/Plas is the best way to take them.