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Can you make a decent list without carnifex?

If you are wondering why, its for theme reasons pretty much. I am just wondering if you can pull it off using other antitank units such as Zoanthropes, Tyrants, Ect.

You can try, but it generally won't be as effective.

Flyrant with blast only hits 50% of the time, and even tooled for CC he generally bounces off of skimmers.

Zoanthropes, you can only take 3. So that's 1/2 the wounds of 3 heavy weapon carnifexes, and light weapons fire takes you down because you are T4 not T6.

A second Tyrant needs a bodyguard, but he's slow and has a short range.

So it's not impossible, it's just subpar in comparison. Sorry to say.

I figured that may be the case. I suppose I can try it out and see how (bad) it feels.

The problem is skimmer armies - they are the real hassle thanks to the '6 to hit' rule. the fact that most of them can dish out the anti troop fire makes them very hard to ignore as well.

hmm I have a buddy who uses biovours and prays that they scatter behind vehicles. It's not good idea but if you have some moral reason for not liking carnies.

Its not so much a moral reason, as it is a aesthetic one. I will probably add them eventually, I just want to explore my options first.

I find a pair of VC + TL-Dev Tyrants with Guards does a pretty fair job. Add a unit of 3 Zoanthropes and there's plenty of synapse & 5 models which can tackle tanks. The nice thing about it is that concentrated shooting is needed to take down any one of these options, give them 5 targets and it isn't exactly easy.

It may not be AS effective but it does work. Not having Carnifex models won't cripple your list, having them does make it stronger though.

honestly the carnifex is regarded (in my area anyways) as one of the best tanks in the game. make him T7, 5 wounds, 2+ save, give him BS 3, a VC and BS and go to town. i take 2 of these and i never regret it.

Yeah, if you want to go without any Carnifexes in a take-all-comers Tyranid army you really have to then take 2 Tyrants with Venom Cannons, 3 Zoanthropes with Warp Blast and you probably want to take some Forgeworld Meiotic Spores for good measure.

Even then if you run up against a mech Skimmer list you're going to spend the game feeling like a fish in a barrel.


With the next codex I really hope GW jettisons the 'universal weapon stats that are affected by creature statlines' concept because it just doesn't work in terms of army design.

Tyranid Warriors should be able to be equipped as true AT shooters (S7 venom Cannons just don't cut it) and they should realy introduce a pure shooting bug, an offshoot of the biovore who has a direct fire gun on his back that can shoot at vehicles.

My idea would be something like a twin-linked 36" Range S8 AP1 Assault2 weapon on a biovore-like statline that are taken as 1-3 individual creatures that are taken as a single HS choice.

Until they come out with something like that for Tyranids or alter Tyanid Warriors so they can be effective AT support you really do have to rely on Carnifexes as your primary AT unit.

I would rather like some sort of melee anti-skimmer unit/update, but I#m rather biased towards melee nids, so thats no surprise right there.

In a more competitive setting, the carnifex is not replaceable.

Greets
Schepp himself

Schepp himself wrote:I would rather like some sort of melee anti-skimmer unit/update, but I#m rather biased towards melee nids, so thats no surprise right there.

That's what I would like to see. Something like +1 to their chances to hit a vehicle in melee.

Long ranged anti-tank options are good too. There's no reason for nids not to have access to some sort of living artillery.

Zoeys... are living artillery..... says so in the rules....

Bioplasma is an option, albiet not the best anti-tank in the world it does give a 4+ chance to hit a skimmer at Strength +1. So a Carnifex is getting a CC attack that hits on a 4+ with 10+1d6 penetration against skimmers if it can catch them. A Flyrant would have better luck getting into CC with a skimmer (or flying Warriors) and have a S7+d6 to penetrate, the Warriors would be looking at S6+d6 in the same scenario.

It's better than 'only hits on a 6' and a brood of Gargoyles could possibly glance an AV10 vehicle using bioplasma after firing fleshborers at a skimmer in the shooting phase.

It's not reliable, it may not be good, but it's better than just hitting on a 6 if you get close enough!

I want to see a return of the Exocrine and the other `Nid "tanks" from befor. I still have my Armorcast figs of em.

well warriors do better than most options too.

in 4th they get ignored because of nidzilla (basically) but 9 in a unit are pretty nice basically regardless of what they are equiped with - so long as it is intelligent.

add that you can basically swarm them to cover each other (3 elites, 2 HQ, 3FA) if _really_ needed they are worth considering, and if no carni's are there the points may make it rather viable.

that said, I still field 9 currently so perhaps I am biased

Swarm nids have never stopped being viable. Look up 'stealer shock' and search threads on that. Many armies have none or token Dakkafexes and run just fine.

Zoanthropes are best for your S10 hits, always give them Warp Blast, but you can still just rely on stealers for your anti tank if you like. You will be taking Zoanthropes anyway for the choir effect or synapse.

For thecore of your army, massed stealers and Hormagaunts or leaping spinegaunts, about one gaunt per one to two stealers. Gaunts close in and tie up units in close combat so the stealers can close in unmolested.

Either that or just take stealers and give them scuttlers to cut down their charge distance.

yakface wrote:
With the next codex I really hope GW jettisons the 'universal weapon stats that are affected by creature statlines' concept because it just doesn't work in terms of army design.

The weapon symbiote system does work, it just has a few anomalies. I would far rather GW made nids more melee orientated. The way they are you get all the benefits of monsters (instead of tank) yet you can sit and outshoot guard. Its not right.

What I would like to see is aswarm attack option available against vehicles and opposing monsterous creatures. Something like:
Swarm Attack: Tyranid broods of four models or more may initiate a swarm attack against a single opposing ground based vehicle or monsterous creature in close combat. Instead of its normal attacks against the target allocate an automatic hit of S equal to every two wounds, rounded down, of creature involved or supporting the attack. If the swarm attack generates a hit greater than S10 allocate all remaining qualifying models in the brood towards a second attack and so on. For example: 28 Termagants piling onto a Leman Russ will cause an automatic S10 hit for the first 20 Termagants and a S4 hit for the remaining eight. If the target is a warmachine or gargantuan creature only models in base contact can participate in a swarm attack, though supporting models still get their normal attacks. all attacks are conducted against the weakest armour facing in contact with any of the attacking brood.

Drag them down: Leaping or winged tyranid models in base contact with an enemy skimmer, or winged tyranuid models in contact with an enemy flyer may launch a swarm attack. Instead of its normal attacks against the target allocate an automatic hit of S equal to every wounds of creature involved or supporting the attack. If the swarm attack generates a hit greater than S10 allocate all remaining qualifying models in the brood towards a second attack and so on. For example: 28 Hormagaunts piling onto a Falcon grav Tank will cause an automatic S10 hit for the first 10 Hormagaunts, another for the second and a S8 hit for the remaining eight.

Latch On: If a swarm attack damages its target it forfeits the protection of fast moving skimmer rules, and shields or energy fields of any type for subsequent swarm attacks from the same brood this turn.



The moral of the story is, dont fly Falcons over leaping gaunts.

I will put this up on the appropriate sub board.

Orlanth: It might be something to substitute the Talos Claw rule for the Swarm Attack you're suggesting. I'd suggest it as a replacement for Rending as well, but that ain't going to happen.

Similarly it might be interesting simply to have a Tyranid Brood sacrifice attacks for a better to hit roll. Imagine it like a swarm of ants where some do the lifting, some hold it together, and one or two form a weapon launched into the enemy.

Limit these co-operative attacks to Broods within Synapse and I think you get something characterful but not game-breaking.

Orlanth wrote:

yakface wrote:
With the next codex I really hope GW jettisons the 'universal weapon stats that are affected by creature statlines' concept because it just doesn't work in terms of army design.

The weapon symbiote system does work, it just has a few anomalies. I would far rather GW made nids more melee orientated. The way they are you get all the benefits of monsters (instead of tank) yet you can sit and outshoot guard. Its not right.

What I would like to see is aswarm attack option available against vehicles and opposing monsterous creatures. Something like:
Swarm Attack: Tyranid broods of four models or more may initiate a swarm attack against a single opposing ground based vehicle or monsterous creature in close combat. Instead of its normal attacks against the target allocate an automatic hit of S equal to every two wounds, rounded down, of creature involved or supporting the attack. If the swarm attack generates a hit greater than S10 allocate all remaining qualifying models in the brood towards a second attack and so on. For example: 28 Termagants piling onto a Leman Russ will cause an automatic S10 hit for the first 20 Termagants and a S4 hit for the remaining eight. If the target is a warmachine or gargantuan creature only models in base contact can participate in a swarm attack, though supporting models still get their normal attacks. all attacks are conducted against the weakest armour facing in contact with any of the attacking brood.

Drag them down: Leaping or winged tyranid models in base contact with an enemy skimmer, or winged tyranuid models in contact with an enemy flyer may launch a swarm attack. Instead of its normal attacks against the target allocate an automatic hit of S equal to every wounds of creature involved or supporting the attack. If the swarm attack generates a hit greater than S10 allocate all remaining qualifying models in the brood towards a second attack and so on. For example: 28 Hormagaunts piling onto a Falcon grav Tank will cause an automatic S10 hit for the first 10 Hormagaunts, another for the second and a S8 hit for the remaining eight.

Latch On: If a swarm attack damages its target it forfeits the protection of fast moving skimmer rules, and shields or energy fields of any type for subsequent swarm attacks from the same brood this turn.



The moral of the story is, dont fly Falcons over leaping gaunts.

I will put this up on the appropriate sub board.

How about spicing it up with a 'birdstrike' style rule... somthing that harms the user of the swarm as well.
Drag Them Down: The swarming unit takes 1d6 S6 hits for each attack of S6 or greater & 1d3 S6 hits for each additional attack scored against the target skimmer.

It's like the vehicle is trying to tank-shock but can't get away. Still effective against the vehicle but suicide for at least some of the swarming brood as they crash into a large, fast, metal object!