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Reading the shieldwall rules repeatedly makes me question why a unit of guard with a tyrant is a large target.

I think I can understand the premise, but the practice of this makes no sense to me.

Without targeting the monstrous creature (which is specifically disallowed) the only targets left are NOT monstrous.
Since the only size three model is ONLY size three because it is monstrous even that distinction should be invalid by RAW
A tyrant with tyrant guard behind (size two LOS blocking whatever) cannot be targeted SEPERATE from its unit because it is monstrous - it is only visible because it is monstrous - so the unit is targeted - the guard are part of the unit - the guard cannot be wounded - the unit is multiwound thus wounds MUST be distributed - the guards are NOT in LOS - no wounds assigned to guard are valid . absurd, but that seems what the assertion is.

with discrete units on a flat table and no LOS issues the "large target" thought seems fine.
but actual use seems to be either assinine, totally nullifying shieldwall as having ANY use, or both.

Without ever using the "monstrous creature" rules or phrase (the shieldwall does not allow that rule to make any DIFFERENCE in the models) I cannot read why the unit is large.

basically, without shieldwall, there is no issue. other examples of this are fine, even multiple vehicles in a unit. you CAN target the unit, but you CANNOT target any one of them, despite the actual ruling that says you can always target a large target - and vehicles are large targets. If there was another example of this I would love to read it.

You're confusing yourself. Targeting something means to select it as the target unit.

All other MCs that can join units can still be picked out and targeted as a separate unit.

'Shieldwall' simply doesn't allow you to do this.


But if the Tyrant/Tyrant Guard unit is behind size 2 terrain you can still fire at the UNIT but the only model in the unit that can be seen is the Tyrant and therefore he is the only model that can be hit or wounded.

You aren't targeting him separately, you're targeting the unit of which he happens to be the only valid model you can damage.

yakface wrote:
But if the Tyrant/Tyrant Guard unit is behind size 2 terrain you can still fire at the UNIT but the only model in the unit that can be seen is the Tyrant and therefore he is the only model that can be hit or wounded.

You aren't targeting him separately, you're targeting the unit of which he happens to be the only valid model you can damage.

the tyrant is being picked out because of the monstrous creature rule in that statement.

that is the part I do not quite understand.

the rest of the clarification helps somewhat, thank you.

I think part of my confusion is in the word seperate, but also the size issue itself.

since the unit would be targeted, but the Tyrant itself cannot be picked out seperately, why is the unit visible? the tyrant is only size three because of the monstrous creature rule. and that is the rule shieldwall excepts.

I know I am confusing myself still. but I still cannot seem to read this correctly.

(in all fairness - give the thing wings and be done with it ^_^ but mostly this came from a discusion of what ELSE to do and why not)

Shieldwall prevents picking the Tyrant out because he's monstrous and targeting him individually, as you can normally do to Monstrous Creatures. There used to be several Monstrous Creatures which were also Independent Characters (such as Avatars and Daemon Princes, before their codices were revised and they stopped being Independent Characters). The exception was made to prevent people from attaching their Avatar to a Guardian squad and then taking all lascannon hits on the guardians. But the Tyrant with Guard is SUPPOSED to be protected, so he got the special rule- Shieldwall.

Shieldwall does not make the guards size 3.

If you are drawing LOS over size 2 area terrain, or over an assault consisting of size 2 models, you will be able to see and target the Tyrant+Guard unit, but only able to hit the one visible model- the Tyrant.

Just like if you had the Tyrant peeking out from behind a size 3 wood, with the Guards completely hidden behind the wood. You can see and target the unit, but you can only hit the one visible model- the Tyrant.

I agree and understand that.

my actual question is about why that tyrant is _targetable_.

I do not assert that the guard are level 3.
But that is exactly the problem. the ONLY reason the tyrant is level 3 is the exact reason you cannot target it because of shieldwall.
if one cannot pick out the tyrant because it is monstrous, and the RAW say it is level three only because it is monstrous, why is it viable to target him because it is level 3? is that not picking out the model seperate from the unit because it is monstrous?

I do really understand the baseline logic here. on both sides. I simply do not understand the assertion that the tyrant is size three without using the monstrous creature targeting rules to differentiate him from his unit. And that, honestly, could very well be me confusing myself again. Thus my inquirey.

kirsanth wrote:

since the unit would be targeted, but the Tyrant itself cannot be picked out seperately, why is the unit visible?

Because the Tyrant is part of the unit and he is size 3. You aren't choosing him as a target you are choosing the UNIT as the target.

the tyrant is only size three because of the monstrous creature rule. and that is the rule shieldwall excepts.

The Shieldwall rule does not suddenly make the Tyrant no longer a Monstrous Creature. It simply removes the ability to choose him as a target unit for firing. But again, we aren't choosing him as the target, we're targeting his UNIT.

Now, once we actually target his unit the shots can only end up hitting him, but that is besides the point.

It would be exactly the same as if the Tyrant Guard were out of LOS behind a house and you could only see the Tyrant.

/shrug

that makes sense I guess. pretty much assinine then. I guess my problem is with the LOS issue. I do not see it as the same. The only reason you can see the tyrant is still the MC rule. the unit only has the MC rule by assertion, not RAW.
and so targeting the UNIT based on the tyrant having MC rule, but not being able to pick out the MC seems a stretch.

does that make sense?

I think I understand why you say what you do now, and thank you for that. I am just not certain I agree.

If it helps, the GW Tyranid FAQ seems quite clear that Shieldwall in no way impacts the size of the Tyrant. The specific example they use (shooting at the Tyrant over size 2 terrain while he is with the Guard) requires yakface to be correct.

http://us.games-workshop.com/errata/assets/TyranidsFAQ.pdf

That does help a lot, thank you.

I still think that the issue is pretty wierd, but that does at least write it out for me.

I will keep that as another thing to whine about as silly then, and not as something to worry over.

It makes a tyrant w/ guard running with guants need to stand in front of the gaunts for the guard to be able to do anything. that seems off.

Even if it isn't

Thanks again guys.

kirsanth wrote:That does help a lot, thank you.

I still think that the issue is pretty wierd, but that does at least write it out for me.

I will keep that as another thing to whine about as silly then, and not as something to worry over.

It makes a tyrant w/ guard running with guants need to stand in front of the gaunts for the guard to be able to do anything. that seems off.

Even if it isn't

Thanks again guys.

In the current game size 2 models don't block line of sight (unless locked in combat), so it doesn't matter if there are gaunts, stealers, Warriors, etc. in front of the Tyrant/Tyrant Guard unit, they don't block line of sight.

In 5th edition (according to the leaked rules) you are allowed to put wounds and pull casualties from anywhere in the unit, even on models out of LOS so it wouldn't matter if the Guards are screened they are still valid models to put the wounds onto.

From reading the rules I gathered that wounds are assigned before armor saves are taken and wound can only be assigned to models in line of site. For casualty removal you can remove models of the same type (i.e. weapon layout) for each failed wound save. So in the case of the Tyrant and his guard wouldn't you need to first assign wounds then take saves and apply wounds to the tyrant since he is the only model that can been seen?

Negativemoney wrote:From reading the rules I gathered that wounds are assigned before armor saves are taken and wound can only be assigned to models in line of site. For casualty removal you can remove models of the same type (i.e. weapon layout) for each failed wound save. So in the case of the Tyrant and his guard wouldn't you need to first assign wounds then take saves and apply wounds to the tyrant since he is the only model that can been seen?

Well, the leaked rules are contradictory on this point so we won't really know for sure until the final release. However for the most part they are pretty clear that any model in the unit can be a casualty regardless of whether it is within line of sight or range of the attackers (as long as one model in the unit is).

The only place it contradicts this idea is in the cover save area where it says that models which are out of LOS cannot be hit. . .but again, we won't know for sure until the real rules come out.