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I have a question.

I am looking through my cygnar deck, specifically lieutenant caine. We all know him and love him. I traded for an epic caine mini. Well, gosh darn. Isn't something epic much more epic than something that is not epic. By definition the answer is yes. Well, I notice that epic caine has recieved a promotion to captain. good job caine. But then again, so did all the other cygnar warcasters. They all have different titles completely.

Well, maybe its no big deal but other figures have had changes on release, and the minis are so different that doubt was sewn.

Magnus also has had a release. There was quite a bit of stat changing for him. So I was wondering if you could clear up some confusion.

Are these war caster epic figures any different than their less-promoted, not quite epic counterparts?

They are different.

You're not allowed to use Epic Caine in a game less than
750 points, whereas you can use Caine in 350 or even
500 point games.

My impression of Epic Caine is that he fires less often and
bounces around less often, but when he hits with his guns
he hits harder. Also, he has elite cadre which improves the
Arcane Tempest Gun Mages.

Hopefully a Cygnar player can enlighten us on epic caine.
I've never had a chance to fight him.

If you ever face up against Protectorate epics, you'll see
huge differences there.

Kreoss vs. epic Kreoss = less one feat wonder and more
melee based abilities.

Feora vs. EFeora = Beatstick warcaster vs. Warjack friendly
tricksy warcaster.

High Reclaimer vs. Testament = why would you even
consider taking the High Reclaimer anymore in 750 pt.
games when you have Testament and Vengers?

The changes are large enough that the warcasters play
differently. I love that part of epic warcasters.

Caine kills the enemy through a hail of medium strength firepower. Many squishy casters have died from his flurry of shots, but the high armored ones like Karchev or Darius are usually safe.

E Caine is an entirely different animal. One turn of the game he is an unstoppable killing machine. When he spends all his focus on generating more shots (I think you can get up to 9 with all the right situations) you are putting out shots that go higher than P+S 20. He can kill anything in one turn, even Karchev the Terrible. Also, he is no where near as sneaky, but much harder to stop from assassinating you (since he can Gatecrash into melee, and shoot you in the face).

Noticeable changes are spells (Flash, Gatecrasher, Magic Bullet) and the Thunderclap chain attack of ecaine.

And the reason he was upgraded to Captain (a rank usually given to newly graduated warcasters) is because he had attitude unbehaving of an officer. Of course he did this on purpose to be able to do his shady missions with less people watching.

Bah Edit not working. In continuation of Malfred's epic examples:

Stryker vs E Stryker. Anakin just became Darth Vader. His entire style went from defensive and supportive to Blitzkrieg. Now he moves super fast, can deal out over 40 damage in a single hit, charges around corners, and just begs for an assault army heavy on lightning troops.

Haley vs E Haley. Wow, she is so much trickier. She used to play the denial game through Temp Barrier spam, but now she is playing the real control game. Skilled players can control as much of their opponents army with her as their opponents can, resulting in units running around like mentally slowed gerbils. It's a lot harder to get her abilities going off in the right order, and she isnt as safe without temp, but it can really pay off.

The consensus on epic casters versus thier prime counter parts are the original prime ones are better with the exception of maybe two. Prime caster feats on the whole are much more brutal and thier basic spell list is better. Stryker, Gaspy, and Vlad seems to be the consensus of better BTW. The others get arguments both ways.

It seems like that some do opposite things. For instance,it seems like Ecaine is more geared for assanation, while maelstrom and other abilities on regular caine are more for clearing out lines of troops.

How is epic Magnus?

I think of the Epics as a different warcaster, and the only limit is I can't put both versions in a 1000 pt list.

Going to Epic, casters in general, have their Feat weakened and made a spell, lose their "signature" spell, and become more focused in an aspect (troop support, assassination, melee, etc.).

I wouldn't say the non-Epic versions are better or worse - just different. eHaley is a more powerful in some ways, but loses some of her best spells. eCaine is an assassin, Caine is more of a support caster able who can take out light-medium infantry. eStryker is melee focused, Stryker is a troop-support caster.

So say one could speculate that Thagrosh would lose either his weapon or Mutagenesis, get better and more unit buffs and maybe become more of a ranged caster.

and dare I say ... CMD 9.

Here's a quick rundown of the Khador epics:

Epic Sorscha - Previously, Sorscha liked troops because she didn't have enough focus to run a lot of jacks effectively (Wind Rush and a couple of expensive offensive spells left little for the jacks). Her feat is very powerful, and it makes her a very powerful assassin caster. Epic Sorscha also likes infantry, but because she has an excellent elite cadre and a handful of spells and abilities that help them out. She has a good jack bond, though, so don't forget to bring one. She's more potent in melee and shooting, but she's also more fragile and less agile. Overall, though her army composition stayed relatively the same, she's now a close support caster/beatstick.

Epic Vlad - Prime Vlad has no upkeeps, but he has several powerful spells that make up for his fairly weak jack-only feat. He can support lots of units and has the ability to turn himself into an uber-solo at will. Epic Vlad is definitely an infantry support caster. He has one jack-only spell and pretty much everything else is infantry oriented. He also isn't as durable as normal Vlad, so keep him close to your forces. Both versions are good beatsticks.

Epic Butcher - Prime Butcher has practically nothing to offer warjacks. He supports infantry fairly well, but his low CMD is a problem. So is his medium base. However, Khador has two fearless medium base units that can be used as a delivery system to get Butcher stuck in. Once he gets to the enemy, he'll chop it in half. He's durable and powerful. The strongest beatstick in the game, but his low speed makes him take a support role for most of the game. Epic Butcher is much the same, but he now gives free buffs to jacks. He's also a TON more destructive. He's still a support/beatstick caster, and certainly one of the most fun warcasters in the entire game.

Epic Irusk - Irusk is an infantry support caster who can buff one jack such that his army composition should be him, one jack, and an assload of infantry. He really hasn't changed in his epic version. The biggest difference is instead of providing fire support, he became, you guessed it, a beatstick. So now he's a close support caster as opposed to the rear support caster he used to be.

malfred wrote:How is epic Magnus?

I haven't played either version, but I'd say Epic Magnus is pretty much the same in terms of playstyle as he was before. He's better at supporting troops, but he's also better at supporting jacks. He's still able to smack stuff around, too. His biggest change is his feat. Instead of providing your army with a sudden burst of mobility, you restrict your enemy's.

Tacobake wrote:So say one could speculate that Thagrosh would lose either his weapon or Mutagenesis, get better and more unit buffs and maybe become more of a ranged caster.

and dare I say ... CMD 9.

Thagrosh won't likely lose his melee ability. Most if not all epics are more offensively oriented than their non-epic counterparts. But come on, in Evolution he So I think he'll be just as beatstick-y as before, maybe even be the first large based epic. As for losing Mutagenesis, it's possible. I'd bank on losing Death Shroud for sure, though.

oomiestompa wrote:

Tacobake wrote:So say one could speculate that Thagrosh would lose either his weapon or Mutagenesis, get better and more unit buffs and maybe become more of a ranged caster.

and dare I say ... CMD 9.

Thagrosh won't likely lose his melee ability. Most if not all epics are more offensively oriented than their non-epic counterparts. But come on, in Evolution he

Spoiler:

ate the athanc of another dragon! He's going to mutate like crazy, possibly taking up some of the aspects of said eaten dragon.

So I think he'll be just as beatstick-y as before, maybe even be the first large based epic. As for losing Mutagenesis, it's possible. I'd bank on losing Death Shroud for sure, though.

aw.

That could make sense too, do away with the attrition list. More teleporting and WHAM.

Epic Thagrosh will probably only keep one of his spells, based on trends. And it probably won't be one you use that often - probably the offensive attack spell without the AoE (forget the name). He'll probably get some way of holding onto dead warbeats - maybe get Respawn like Saeryn but d3 damage is restored, etc. I don't see his Feat becoming a spell, but some watered down version being his spell.

iirc, he loses his melee weapon (forget the name) in Evolution. He might get it back (and since it splits the althanc to make more warlocks, he probably needs it), but based on trends, he probably gets something else. Maybe his claw finally gets a melee attack.

I think he'll get wings and be able to Glide or Fly in some fashion. He'll probably stay a melee beatstick, but have some changes in how he works, maybe require a little more finesse than now.

dietrich wrote:iirc, he loses his melee weapon (forget the name) in Evolution. He might get it back (and since it splits the althanc to make more warlocks, he probably needs it), but based on trends, he probably gets something else.

Yea, I seem to remember him losing his weapon, but it's been a while since I read it.

It would be pretty sweet if one of the other non-legion Warlocks found it and has it as their epic weapon. I imagine that the Skorne would love to get their hands on it. They do love to experiment...

Epic Irusk - Irusk is an infantry support caster who can buff one jack such that his army composition should be him, one jack, and an assload of infantry. He really hasn't changed in his epic version. The biggest difference is instead of providing fire support, he became, you guessed it, a beatstick. So now he's a close support caster as opposed to the rear support caster he used to be.

He is also absolutley insane and IMO the best all around caster in the game. I don't look forward to facing him and think PP may have lost thier minds when they created this guy.