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So, I'm working on an army list using Cameleoline (it's supposed to be a Tanith army, so I'm looking at the Tanith Doctrines, natch). And so my Hardened Vets will get Cameleoline and Infiltrate, because, well, they're Hardened Vets. And if I take Light Infantry, then I can infiltrate any of my bog standard squads.

Here's my question, though: Is it worth taking the Light Infantry on all your standard Las/Plas, AC/Plas, and/or HB/Flamer squads? Does the ability to infiltrate make that much of a difference for getting your squads into cover so you can take advantage of that Cameleoline cover save bonus? Or do most folks find that the cover within their deployment zone is enough to allow your cameleoline-equipped troops to make the best of it?

I mean, I know that Cameleoline's a points sink and that I should probably be spending my valuable points elsewhere - but humoring me on that - is Light Infantry worth the points?

I'd say so depending on the size of the game and the size of the table.

You don't have to infiltrate everything, tho. You can always save points one 1 to 3 squads that deploy in your deployment zone. Altho one advantage of infiltrating everything is you set up after your opponent's deployment.

Cameleoline can be ridiculously powerful, if you usually play with enough terrain to make use of it. Light Infantry can be a fun one as well, as long as infiltrate is in effect.

I run a Tanith army occassionally, and its ridiculous to be able to go: yeah, you go ahead a deploy everything. Then I'll deploy everything in the best possible manner for myself.

B

How did the Tanith army run for you, Centurian? I assume you didn't stick too closely to the Tanith's preferred special and heavy being the Flamer and ML?

Cameleoline can be ridiculously powerful, if you usually play with enough terrain to make use of it

Darn right it is. i have fought my share of vox net/comeleoline/iron dicipline IG detachments. as long as your not shootng flamers at them they get marine esc 3+ saves against everything and never take modified LD tests from shooting casualties. then add in the fact they outnumber you to. again this is assuming you use the recommended 25% terrain on your tables,

Death By Monkeys wrote:How did the Tanith army run for you, Centurian? I assume you didn't stick too closely to the Tanith's preferred special and heavy being the Flamer and ML?

I use ML for my main heavy weapon. At 1750 I've got something like 12-15 of them.

ML/Plasma for the line squads, usually flamers in the command squads, and meltas for the veterans. Heavy bolter weapon teams.

Its not a power-army, but I do well with it. It's definitely my "fun" army.

As Centurian points out, being able to react with deployment is pretty much worth the points by itself. My Eldar stealth army (Scorps, pathfinders, Karandras, Eldrad, Spiders/Hawks, sometimes Exodites AKA Kroot, and a Wraithlord or two) revolves around this.

The one thing that you lose doing all-infiltrate is the ability to channel your opponent into a particular area (by scaring them with fire zones set up by your heavies), or to deter them out of advantageous terrain by drawing them off elsewhere. I get around this by using Eldrad (place Wraithlords in a fire lane, then move them), but the Guard have no such cheese available. Some false-threat heavy support units (like a Russ that runs away from it's initial position after the enemy has placed to deal with it) might help with that, but YMMV.

Also, many opponents set up their supporting units more cohesively when they're not reacting to your placement- so beware, it makes average or weak planners tougher to crack. Against vets who have a plan either way, you're not losing anything though. Since it's always better to not have your plans require the enemy to make mistakes, infiltrate still comes out as a good buy.

And massed missile launchers are only going to get nastier in 5th. With more effective cover and the run option, light infantry are going to get better too.

Centurian99, may I ask about what your record is with the Tanith? If you've used them in competition, how did they do?

Savnock wrote:
Centurian99, may I ask about what your record is with the Tanith? If you've used them in competition, how did they do?

Yes you may. But I can't answer.

Never used them in competitive (i.e. tournament) play. Not that they don't do well. The problem with them isn't so much power (they've got their weaknesses, just like any other army) its just that in a tournament I've got no desire to have to deploy, move, and pack up the number of models that I field if I've got to squeeze a game in to 2-2.5 hours. (IIRC, my 1850 Tanith list has 100+ models.)

They also need a decent amount of terrain. At my FLGS, for terrain we regularly fill 25% of the table with terrain, and then have the players alternate placing terrain. Most RTT's/Tournaments I play at have much, much less...

I did play them in a league at my FLGS, where they kicked some serious tail. But some of that might be due to the metagame at my FLGS, which is fairly heavily weighted against assault-based armies (only one person besides myself runs a pure assault-based army). Against, say, a Stealer Shock list, I'm fairly certain it would fold like a pop-up book.

Cameleoline is excellent, light infantry is merely useful. together they add 20pts to a squad. Guard cannot afford that.

Cameleoline is there to boost your defence, not to creep around as a stealth army. It boosts static lists over mobile ones. Dump your army in the best cover available, your deployment will be predictable nyway, as its terrain based.
Then sit back, shoot and laugh at those heavy bolters.

I'm planning on running my list with two LR Demolishers and a Hellhound (from the 8th Pardus Armored that fought with the Tanith on Hagia), so during deployment, I'm going to be setting out some units whether I give all my squads LI or not.

Consequently, I'm thinking of giving LI to some squads and not to others - I'll drop it from a few of the Las/Plas squads that I plan on settling in cover toward the back of my deployment zone, but giving it to my HB/Flamer squads that'll be closer to the front. That will clear up some points. Then I can choose to give it or not to my other Las/Plas and AC/Plas squads. I figure if I deploy first, between the tanks and the Las/Plas squads, I'll have some bait to influence my opponent's deployment.

While my Hardened Vets will have cameleoline, since they already get Infiltrate, seems to me LI would be a waste on them.

Mughi3 mentioned voxes - I've generally heard people refer to them as a waste of points. Would they be worth it in a heavily defensive cameleoline army?

I played two games against a vox-networked camo IG army with my alaitoc rangers, and while cameloline impressed me, the vox really didn't. Then again, the dude had Yarrick and some killy command squad tied to the master vox, so they weren't in cover using that cameloline save. He tried to assault some warp spiders who kept warping away and blasting the squad, then when it was just Yarrick left, I nailed him with ten or so pathfinders. That forcefield doesn't work so well on a weapon with no strength value, coincidentally.

Moral is, if you keep your HQ cheap and in cover, it can be good I suppose, but if your really reducing the other options available to the HQ choice in doing so.

Death By Monkeys wrote:I'm planning on running my list with two LR Demolishers and a Hellhound (from the 8th Pardus Armored that fought with the Tanith on Hagia), so during deployment, I'm going to be setting out some units whether I give all my squads LI or not.

Consequently, I'm thinking of giving LI to some squads and not to others - I'll drop it from a few of the Las/Plas squads that I plan on settling in cover toward the back of my deployment zone, but giving it to my HB/Flamer squads that'll be closer to the front. That will clear up some points. Then I can choose to give it or not to my other Las/Plas and AC/Plas squads. I figure if I deploy first, between the tanks and the Las/Plas squads, I'll have some bait to influence my opponent's deployment.

While my Hardened Vets will have cameleoline, since they already get Infiltrate, seems to me LI would be a waste on them.

Mughi3 mentioned voxes - I've generally heard people refer to them as a waste of points. Would they be worth it in a heavily defensive cameleoline army?

If you're not going pure-infantry, then LI on everything is probably overkill and what you're talking about it probably workable. Although based on your proposal above, I'd keep LI on the las/plas squads. (actually, I don't see any need for you to have HB/flamer squads).

Good call on HVets, too. I don't ever give my Vets LI.

Voxes could potentially be useful in an all-LI army, but I doubt it. Never used them, and never felt the lack.

Silverthorne wrote:I played two games against a vox-networked camo IG army with my alaitoc rangers, and while cameloline impressed me, the vox really didn't. Then again, the dude had Yarrick and some killy command squad tied to the master vox, so they weren't in cover using that cameloline save.

Well, that's just a waste of points for the master vox, then! Actually, the more I think of it, the less sense it makes. Here's part of the problem - even though that Command Squad might be fearless and use Yarrick's Ld 10, anyone using the command squad's leadership through the vox still uses the Officer's Ld of 8 or 9. I mean, if you tack on a normal Commissar to the unit, that Officer would be at Ld 10, but Yarrick doesn't do anything to boost him. Sounds like a questionable army build to me. That said, I still haven't heard enough voices of people in favor of voxes for me to really feel that I have to include them.

@Centurian99 - out of curiosity, why do you recommend against the HB/flamer squads. I mean, I plan on running suicide PHQs in addition to the HVets as counter-assault, but I figured the HB/flamer squads would be good to put out front to punish the folks that I intercept with the PHQs. Should I just focus on AC/Plas and Las/Plas instead?