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Do Chaos Spawn not count as scoring units? This may be a stupid question, but haven't been back in the game long. Also, does the D.Prince count?



Thanks


wOOkie

The mindless special rule of the spawn on page 33 in the chaos codex states they never count as scoring units.

As for the daemon prince, a daemon prince is a montrous creature and has no special rule that denies counting as scoring unit.
Having just read through the Monstrous creature entry in the 40k rulebook there is nothing there.

My only conclution at this point is that he does infact count as scoring.

Interestingly enough I just noticed that a daemon prince is not an IC, neat

Thanks Fester, I was wondering the viability of a mostly spawn army. It would be fun to se around 30 of the boogers running around (10 units! LOL!) not being scoring units would make it hard to win with them...........


wOOkie

Spawns are... odd.

At first I thought they were useless, - save slow and purpousfull but fearless. There were so many changes from the old codex that I simply overlooked the fact they are beasts.

Wanting to be thorough I checked what being a beast really meens (dont think I have ever seen a beast on a table).

Being beasts I then realized they had fleet of foot/tentacle/pseudopod/hoof... and a 12" charge... but they are slow and purpousfull.

I still havent decided if I like them or not but that is for a different topic

I remember when the codex came out someone crunched numbers and found their average movement per turn is 7", not counting the charge. At 7" per turn, though, it's gonna be a while before they charge.

I'm no expert, but from the looks of them they're in with possessed as the ugly ducklings of the codex, below lesser daemons, dreadnoughts, and obliterators (with the new non-scoring 2 KP each 5th edition rules) which are in the bad-but-workable echelon.

Spawn would be workable if they hadn't loaded them with so many negatives. Nonscoring AND has to move directly towards the nearest enemy AND no armor save = pretty cruddy.

Their average movement per turn is actually about 8 inches before they get into assault range. S&P average 4.47".

Dead Horse wrote:
I'm no expert, but from the looks of them they're in with possessed as the ugly ducklings of the codex, but not as good than lesser daemons, dreadnoughts, and obliterators (with the new non-scoring 2 KP each 5th edition rules) which are in the bad-but-workable echelon.

Indeed. Why they gave the best looking new models the worst rules is beyond me.

I think Spawn are great, if you use them well. 2D6 movement per turn via Slow and Purposeful and Fleet of Foot combined with a 12" assault range seems pretty good. The distribution curve of 2D6 seems a more accurate assessment of their expected movement during a game than their average rate of movement. And they hit damned hard in assaults, and will hit harder if the rumours surrounding Slow and Purposeful bear fruit.

Indeed the fact that they most move towards the nearest enemy isn't hugely problematic if you consider that you can influence the nearest enemy by threatening charges with less restricted units like Raptors, Daemon Princes, Chaos Lords, Land Raider mounted troops, etc. It's like a refused-flank but instead of refusing the flank you mine it with Spawn. Opposing units could move into the area to escape assaults from the rest of your army, but they'd open themselves to the impact of several Spawn. Likewise they could avoid the Spawn and suffer the co-ordinated assault of more reliable (but perhaps less hard-hitting) units. Like Daemons they're Fearless so they can tarpit a unit and take it out of action until the Chaos Space Marines can co-ordinate a couple of units to join the assault and demolish it.

This is, of course, leaving out the fact that some armies will be attempting to close with the Chaos Space Marine force and assaulting Ork Mobz, Gaunt Broods, and such first is handy.

Same with Possessed Marines. Slap them down in the middle of the board with an Icon of Chaos and grind them straight forwards. Two random results will let them close quicker, three results will let them hit really hard when they get there, and one result makes them tougher.

Combined with an Icon of Nurgle they can potentially be tougher than Plaguemarines. The bonus to Toughess conveyed by the Icon, the Feel No Pain conveyed by the Daemonkin rule, and their own Invulnerable save for those pesty Lascannons.

Combined with an Icon of Slaanesh they can put the hurt on I6- troops. The bonus to Initiative conveyed by the Icon, the Furious Charge conveyed by the Daemonkin rule, and their Invulerable save.

Combined with an Icon of Tzeentch, well, they'd be pretty Battlecannon, Demolisher Cannon, and Earthshaker Cannon resistant, as well as being able to mix things up in close combat with Power Weapon and Powerfist wielding troops with relative impunity. The bonus to their Invulnerable save from the Icon combined with Feel No Pain makes them brutally tough, and their Strength combined with Rending or Power Weapons would make them a mincing machine. And they'd be even better against stuff like Genestealers, Carnifexi, and hostile Daemon Princes.

Combined with the Mark of Khorne, well, you could have some fun. The possibility of S5 Berzerkers is nice with Furious Charge, otherwise having Rending or S5 Power Weapons would let them hit harder than Terminators 5pts more and be just as resistant to Lascannons and the like.

Basically you get an improvement on the hitting power of already excellent assault troops 50%, an improvement on the toughness of already tough troops 16.6% of the time, and the other 33.3% they start the game closer to the enemy. And you can give them Icons of Chaos, which aside from giving bonuses to the unit allow them to Deepstrike Daemons in for a massive push. A unit of Possessed with Fleet of Foot and a Champion is an ideal unit to "Daemon-bomb" and explode into a mass of Daemons, particularly if they have an Icon of Tzeentch.

Hey Nurglitch,

Thanks for putting a good twist on what everyone else has thrown out, it's good to see some positives with the negs!


Peace,

wOOkie

Thanks sugarwookie. Incidentally it occurred to me last night that Possessed have an advantage over a similar Elite choice: Chaos Terminators. For only 5 points more the Terminators get guaranteed Power Weapons, Twin-linked Bolters, and Terminator Armour. However, Terminator Armour not only enables their ability to Deep Strike but disables their ability to conduct Sweeping Advances. An Icon of Slaanesh not only lets the Possessed dust it up with I5 troops, it improves their ability to destroy them utterly!

You've convinced me to give these guys a shot. I'm pulling out Possessed for the bext battle in my local escalation campaign. This kind of fluffy environment may be just where they shine.

Thanks!

I agree, didn't really see the value of Possessed until I started a thread on Chaos Spawn, LOL!


Cheers!