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Wandering around a few threads, it seems there is nothing but doom and gloom for a Khorne-heavy army in the new Codex, even with the rumoured changes for v5 (Running, better transports).

I just wonder - is there *any* way to make a Khorne-centred force work with minimal inclusion of other Marks? Not necessarily a Tournament-winning force, but at least have some kind of chance; as it is, many people seem to be of the opinion that a Khorne-heavy army simply cannot win against anyone but an incompetent commander.

Or should I just wait until Codex: WE comes out, however many years that may be?

i initially used a khorne heavy force having been WE in the last dex.

I found it worked reasonably, but have now embraced chaos in all it's aspects.

A 1750 list i regularly used was

DP, wings, warptime (no mark and i think Warp time's in keeping)

8 chosen, MOK 2 melta guns, 2 power weapons

10 CSM's IOK?IOCU and either 2*plaz or flamer
in a rhino with extra

10 bezerkers, champ fist, rhino extra

10 raptors, 2 meltas, IOK, champ with claws

1 vindicator

2 oblits

(and possibly 5 termi's can't find my list) not unbeatable, but effective

Simply put: YES, let the miniatures rest or get more other troops (unmarked or with marks). You will be at a serious disadvantage against every other player who plays an effective army.

MoK is quite good on some other units tho so maybe you could just use that + unmarked stuff.

Khorne is too slow in 4th.

Might not completely suck in 5th edition.

I have my doubts, they are *only* good in CC so against armies that can avoid or delay CC, you get the rest of your army shot to pieces and the Khorne guys running around all angry like with nothing to do and nowhere to go.

Ain't it Ironic, the most effective "Khorne" army I've had to play against was running Lash Sorcerers.

Khorne is plenty effective if you stock up on the Land Raiders, Chosen, Terminators, and other stuff. The Chosen get up front and keep the enemy occupied (and take out anti-tank units), provide a beacon to call in reinforcements such as Daemons and Terminators, and pave the way for the squads of Berzerkers to get stuck in. Against Orks you don't even need to keep the enemy force occupied, although hunting Shock Attack Guns and Lootas is a priority. You just need to pile into those mobs first and tear them apart.

so it isn't a khorne list, it's a chaos list with a unit of khorne berserkers trying to hide in the mass of more dangerous targets so they can get a charge off.

That fools new players, not veteran players.

No idea how chosen matter, they're so easy to break they're not worth the paper they were printed on.

What's the "other stuff"? Lesser demons? Surely you jest.

Of course it's a Khorne list. A unit of Chaos Terminators with an Icon of Khorne, two units of Chosen with Icons of Khorne, three units of Berzerkers, three Land Raiders, and some packs of Lesser Daemons (I can't wait until those new Bloodletters are available! Glee!) is a mass of Berzerkers supported by other Khorne-oriented elements. It's a Khorne-list. Pull the cork out.

Berzerkers aren't the only thing in Khorne's arsenal. I myself have units of Khorne Havocs to go with my Khorne Chosen, Khorne Terminators, and Khorne Chaos Space Marine squads - not a single unit of Berzerkers though. Soon I'll be fielding a couple of Lesser Daemon packs using Bloodletters to represent the summoned entities. The Icons of Khorne are more for summoning and accurate teleport attacks, but the extra omph they add to assaults is nice. I'd include Berzerker units, but I prefer Khorne's aspect as the Destroyer to His aspect as the Berzerk and thus prefer shooting.

Stelek wrote:so it isn't a khorne list, it's a chaos list with a unit of khorne berserkers trying to hide in the mass of more dangerous targets so they can get a charge off.

That fools new players, not veteran players.

No idea how chosen matter, they're so easy to break they're not worth the paper they were printed on.

What's the "other stuff"? Lesser demons? Surely you jest.

I think thats the way to play chaos! You need to have threatening things to distract from you weaker threatening things!

As mentioned above though bezerkers work best with a lash!

I am loathe to include a Lash because, well, it's Slaanesh, but maybe I'm just being too much of a fluff bunny. Though I have been tempted to model a Lash Sorcerer as a Khornite able to compel the enemy to commit to battle...

Land Raiders would be an interesting choice, thanks to the assault ramps and better transport rules in v5. Might have to think about that.

I've tossed up the idea of using Chosen before, but a single unit toting the weapons I want (either plasma or meltas, maybe a powerweapon or two) gets quite expensive very quickly. That said, ~220pts for an 8-man unit instead of 208pts for 8 Berzerkers (with a Champion) seems like a reasonable trade-off, considering the extra abilities of the Chosen.

Interesting ideas all round, thanks for the input!

Well I suppose you could justify it fluffwise by using the Lash Sorc as a dextrous Warrior who issues challenges to units. Naturally he fits right in as he stops enemies from staying away from the bezerkers.

I've started fielding Lash, Plagues and Zerks in my list actually. Zerks in Rhinos, Plagues as special weapon squads. Usually the opponent ends up charging the Plagues and gets countercharged by the Zerks.

Oh btw Orks don't have much AP2 so consider fielding Termies. Make sure they don't get hit by Power Klaws tho.

Or just take the challenge and leave the Slanneshi Sorceror crutch at home.

Here's a list I just wiped up, but keep in mind it fulfills two assumptions:
1) All models must have mark / icon of Khorne
2) Khorne Termis are frightening and killy units worth their investment

HQ
Demon Prince - MoK, wings, icon = 145
Demon Prince - MoK, wings, icon = 145

Elites
10 Terminators - IoK, 2 reapers, 4 powerfists = 420
10 Terminators - IoK, 2 reapers, 4 powerfists = 420
10 Terminators - IoK, 2 reapers, 4 powerfists = 420

Troops
6 CSM - IoK, plasma gun, AC = 150
6 CSM - IoK, plasma gun, AC = 150

Total
1850 points

Trouble with armor of course, and lack of AP2/3 will naturally make things hard for it. But tough, dead killy and all khorne, all the time.

EDIT1 -- Swapped out the lords for princes, much better buy and better anti-tank as well. 2 of them up a flank = fun times.

EDIT2 -- Added in 50 points and switched to plasma for CSM, to make a list I'd play, not necessarily the best one.

- Salvage

Here's the List I'm talking about, all about the frontal assault. You can either teleport the Terminators in with the Lord or pack them into the Land Raider to make a mess of whatever they land on.

Khorne-Heavy Army
Chaos Lord with the Mark of Khorne, Daemon Weapon, Terminator Armour, Personal Icon, Combi-Melta
165 Points

Elite
Chaos Chosen
1 Aspiring Champion with Power Weapon, Meltabombs
4 Chosen with Icon of Chaos Glory, Meltagun (1), Power Weapon (1), Missile Launcher (1)
175 Points

Chaos Chosen
1 Aspiring Champion with Power Weapon, Meltabombs
4 Chosen with Icon of Chaos Glory, Meltagun (1), Power Weapon (1), Missile Launcher (1)
175 Points

Chaos Terminators
4 Terminator Champions with Chain Fist (1), Heavy Flamethrower (1), and Lightening Claws (3), Icon of Khorne
235 Points

Troops
Khorne Berzerkers
1 SKull Champion with Power Weapon, Meltabombs, Personal Icon
9 Berzerkers with Plasma Pistols (2)
1 Chaos Rhino with Daemonic Possession
325 Points

Khorne Berzerkers
1 SKull Champion with Power Weapon, Meltabombs, Personal Icon
9 Berzerkers with Plasma Pistols (2)
1 Chaos Rhino with Daemonic Possession
325 Points

Summoned Daemons
8 Lesser Daemons
104 Points

Summoned Daemons
8 Lesser Daemons
104 Points

Heavy Support
Land Raider with Daemonic Possession
240 Points

If anyone in my group ever faced any army like that they would jump around in the room and sing happy tunes. It is not completly useless but it will definenly give any decent player using .. say a "lash" army, dakka fexx or eldar a 75-25 abvantage on just the army building. There is only 1 really heavy threat and thats the terminators, deal with them and mop up the rest.

Also, the khorne deamonweapon that gives you a 1/3 chance to just hit himself is probably one of the worst gamles there is.

Here's a list I just wiped up... <ka-snip>

Interesting. I can't say I've had much luck with Terminators; after one or two games, my opponents get used to them and learn how to point plasma in their direction in the most efficient way. But then 30 termies is hard for most enemies to crack...

As an aside, my games tend to be around the 1500-1750pt mark. I live in the dark ages, I know.

Oh, and Khorne DPs are 140pts and I'm not too fussed about having a couple of unmarked or MoCG units.

Here's the List I'm talking about, all about the frontal assault.

Also interesting. Gives some food for thought, certainly. I'll definately look into the LR/Chosen combo.

Kallbrand wrote:If anyone in my group ever faced any army like that they would jump around in the room and sing happy tunes. It is not completly useless but it will definenly give any decent player using .. say a "lash" army, dakka fexx or eldar a 75-25 abvantage on just the army building. There is only 1 really heavy threat and thats the terminators, deal with them and mop up the rest.

Also, the khorne deamonweapon that gives you a 1/3 chance to just hit himself is probably one of the worst gamles there is.

Out of curiosity, how would you make this list better? That's really what I'm asking here, I don't particularly want to keep reading "no, that won't work but I refuse to explain why."

That said, I agree with the Daemon Weapon. As much fun as it is getting an average of 11-12 attacks, it's really a kick in the balls when a] you roll a 1 and/or b] your opponent points out that, by RAW, you only get a max of 10 attacks...

Thanks again all for the input.

Cheexsta wrote:
Out of curiosity, how would you make this list better? That's really what I'm asking here, I don't particularly want to keep reading "no, that won't work but I refuse to explain why."

That said, I agree with the Daemon Weapon. As much fun as it is getting an average of 11-12 attacks, it's really a kick in the balls when a] you roll a 1 and/or b] your opponent points out that, by RAW, you only get a max of 10 attacks...

Thanks again all for the input.

How would I make it better? I wouldn't make stupid unit choices like putting a Missile Launcher AND Meltagun in the Chosen, it'd be 2x Meltas to use their infiltrate ability better. I also wouldn't base a lot of the lists success around the Land Raider, which isn't really good in 4th. And I wouldn't take the suicidal Demon Weapon or a Chaos Lord for that matter.

Staying in theme and ignoring the units that automatically make any chaos list better (Oblits, Lash, etc), and optimizing for 4th Edition, I came up with the following which works out exactly to the 1848 Points his list did:

HQ
Demon Prince - 140
Mark of Khorne, Wings

Demon Prince - 140
Mark of Khorne, Wings

Elites
4 Chaos Terminators - 175
1 Power Fist, 3 Combi-Meltas, Mark of Khorne

4 Chaos Terminators - 175
1 Power Fist, 3 Combi-Meltas, Mark of Khorne

Troops
8 Khorne Bezerkers - 208
Skull Champ, Power Fist

Rhino - 50
Extra Armor

8 Khorne Bezerkers - 208
Skull Champ, Power Fist

Rhino - 50
Extra Armor

Fast Attack
8 Raptors - 240
Champ w/ Power Fist, 1 Meltagun, Mark of Khorne

8 Raptors - 240
Champ w/ Power Fist, 1 Meltagun, Mark of Khorne

4 Chaos Bikes - 222
Champ w/ Power Fist, 2 Meltaguns, Mark of Khorne

It's not all that great, and it has problems with Skimmer lists, but I think it's probably the best I could do if I ran Khorne in 40k.

In 5th Edition then things start to get much more interesting. Bezerkers can run when they get out of their Rhinos, in fact everything can run, except the Bikes, Meltas become much better, and you can make a case for dropping one Raptor Squad and replacing it with the Land Raider Nurglitch took. You actually want to drop some of the other units and replace them with more and more Bezerkers in Rhinos, since you need more Troops, allegedly.

If you don't care about unmarked units, you can't ignore obliterators. They are pure gold for chaos.

Flying demon princes, obliterators, then a horde of zerkers and demons.

Having a Melta Gun and a Missile Launcher in a Chosen Squad is a god-send. Having a Melta Gun in the squad means that your opponent can only dislodge you using Tank Shock at very high risk to themselves, on top of being able to attack effectively at short range and before assaults. Taking two, if you have the points, is a great idea.

Having a Missile Launcher gives you the range to hit units, infantry and vehicular, far away from the Chosen's deployment. The advantage of range should not be under-estimated, especially if you are taking Chosen in small squads and they're intended to form an anchor point to bring down Daemons and Terminators on your opponent. They aren't supposed to assault the enemy, they're just there to shoot up the enemy in preparation for the assault by Daemons and then Berzerkers.

Place them on each side of the opposing deployment area. If your opponent deploys evenly, then your Chosen can set up camp and start shelling. If your opponent deploys in a refused flank, then your Chosen can set up camp and start shelling (thanks to the range on the Missile Launcher). Their Icons will give you two accurate Deep Strike zones for your Daemons and Terminators, and since they get more dangerous as you close with them your opponent, if they are advancing, can either move into the flanks and close with them, or move into the middle where they close the gap between your armoured column and hence your Berzerkers.

I like this thread allot, I have an old Khorn demon bomb list that I'd like to blow the dust off of...should I just wate intill the new demon dex comes out? or is the new chaos dex a worthy buy for me.

Nurglitch wrote:Having a Melta Gun and a Missile Launcher in a Chosen Squad is a god-send. Having a Melta Gun in the squad means that your opponent can only dislodge you using Tank Shock at very high risk to themselves, on top of being able to attack effectively at short range and before assaults. Taking two, if you have the points, is a great idea.

Having a Missile Launcher gives you the range to hit units, infantry and vehicular, far away from the Chosen's deployment. The advantage of range should not be under-estimated, especially if you are taking Chosen in small squads and they're intended to form an anchor point to bring down Daemons and Terminators on your opponent. They aren't supposed to assault the enemy, they're just there to shoot up the enemy in preparation for the assault by Daemons and then Berzerkers.

Place them on each side of the opposing deployment area. If your opponent deploys evenly, then your Chosen can set up camp and start shelling. If your opponent deploys in a refused flank, then your Chosen can set up camp and start shelling (thanks to the range on the Missile Launcher). Their Icons will give you two accurate Deep Strike zones for your Daemons and Terminators, and since they get more dangerous as you close with them your opponent, if they are advancing, can either move into the flanks and close with them, or move into the middle where they close the gap between your armoured column and hence your Berzerkers.

Chuckle. This is pure theoryhammer.

Chaos Chosen units are absolute rubbish.

Most Chaos players should know this just by looking at the unit in the Codex, but if they really need convincing they usually just need to play 1 game.

They're a cheap lascannon (comparatively) if you really don't want to take obliterators.

They let you take 5, 6, 7, 8, 9 or 10 troops in a vanilla world of 5 or 10 marines per unit.

Since they have no fast movement, and they cost 2 points less than raptors...equipping them with a variety of weapons is pointless, as you cannot deliver them safely into combat.

They also run like hooches.

The usual place for the 'Chosen' in a chaos army is when you have a hundred odd points to spend and you want something useful. So you take an infiltrating heavy weapon and in come the chosen.

Kinda sad really, compared to their uberness in the last codex.

Chosen can actually be quite good as the army size goes up purely for an infiltrating spearhead that you deep-strike around.

If I ran Chosen I would probably would be giving them as many plasmaguns as I could and hope I got first turn to shoot at skimmers before they move.

But yes they aren't a very pts effective choice on the whole.

zaqzaq: That's what they're for the in Khorne army I've proposed here - equipped to look relatively non-threatening but having the gear to handle a variety of opponents and hold the fort while the Daemons and Terminators Deep Strike and the Berzerkers drive up.

I think Chosen are plenty effective, points-wise, so long as you use them as support for your army rather than the other way around. The Chosen squad I've settled for in my own Khorne-oriented army is six-strong - two Melta Guns, two Flamethrowers, and a Heavy Bolter. Mainly it's so that I can mix and match them into my Tactical squads for special weapons (three squads, one with a Melta Gun, one with a Flamethrower, and one with a Plasma Gun, all with Missile Launchers), but it's also so they can capture objectives early and hold down the fort until my Terminators arrive.

They are alot worse then the old book but still work pretty nice as deepstrike markerlights. Their flamers are stillcheap and they can infiltrate or come from the table edge in 5th.