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So I'm getting back into Fantasy after about a two year break. The army that I had before was vampire counts and I usually ran it as a "night of the living dead" style list with necromancers and zombies or a strigoi list focused on zombies and ghouls. Well, to make a long story short I have had a look at the new army book and it looks like zombies are pretty much crap now (WS,S,T = 2 and no characters can join the unit) and the ghouls work completely different. I'm pretty much having to scrap my existing army and start over. As such, I thought that I would solicit some opinions from you guys about how to revamp my army.

1) I LOVE the grave guard models and even though they weren't the best unit in the old/current book I bought a few and painted them anyhow so I have a good start to a unit. In the new book they also come with swords and boards and thus come out one point cheaper than they used to. What does everyone think about these guys? I was thinking about running a block of them possibly with the banner that gives a unit regeneration and using them as a tar pit/anvil to set up flank charges and general nastyness. What does everyone else think about these guys?

2) How many skeletons? From looking at the new book it seems like skeletons will be the defacto standard core choice. They now come with swords and boards so they're 2 points cheaper than before. I was thinking two maybe three units of them, how many do you think I should run and what size units?

3) Are zombies worth messing with at all? They're two points cheaper than before but their profile is much worse and I seem to recall that characters can't join the unit anymore. My initial reaction is that this makes them complete trash. Am I misjudging them?

4) Any other input on things that people think will be key in the new list is certainly welcome, thanks in advance!

Here's what I've gleaned from the Internets, FWIW:

1) Grave Guard seem to me to be THE ultimate killer block now. 20 guard, command (maybe no champ), great weapons, banner of the barrows gives you a unit that hits on 3+ and wounds on 2+. BUT back it up with a vampire nearby with helm of command to send them his WS and you've now got a unit that hits on 2+, wounds on 2+, and killing blows on top of that. And can be magically dansed into wherever you need it. And can be healed back above half so the enemy gets no points for it. And also looks beautiful on the table. Almost enough to turn me to vamps.

2) I'm seeing lists with like 2 blocks of 10, full command, that are bloated up huge in the first turns of the game. No need to pay for models you can raise for free (with your 1000 points of characters, of course). I think having a bigger unit so the characters aren't gunned out before summoning is a good call, but I'm unsure yet. Having a block of ghouls to do stuff to tough things I would imagine is a good call too.

3) Zombies are worth having so you can raise them and block / danse into things, like the last book, but not worth paying points for.

4) There's lots and lots of other nastiness in the book, but I think the varghulf may be my favorite thing after the grave guard brick. Just mean, and terror + regen on top of that. Corpse carts are also a must, for the bound spells to draw EVEN MORE dice from your enemy as you spam invocations on your skellies

- Salvage

I was thinking about running a block of them possibly with the banner that gives a unit regeneration and using them as a tar pit/anvil to set up flank charges and general nastyness

Well, they are't particularly suited to this role for two reasons.
One, your entire army does this, usually for cheeper.
Two, this unit will run over 500 pts, easy.

That being said, a unit of 24 of these guys with the BSB will beat almost everyone in one round of combat. Run in, kill nothing, lose a guy or two, and run from outnumbered.
The only thing to watch for is crafty generals who run in and kill the bsb so keep a unit champ to issue challenges when necessary.

I would run skeletons in 15 if you plan on equiping your vamps to summon more to the unit (and pay points for that power) or 25 otherwise. They can be subbed for ghouls for the same unit sizes (not tested though)

Ghouls have a use, they are cheaper than clanrats. Just run them on flanks to protect yourself and hope for a flank charge. Keep them disposable.

O, and aren't grave guard str4, not str5?

Yep, the new vanps are gold. My elves will pants them though.

cypher wrote:

I was thinking about running a block of them possibly with the banner that gives a unit regeneration and using them as a tar pit/anvil to set up flank charges and general nastyness

Well, they are't particularly suited to this role for two reasons.
One, your entire army does this, usually for cheeper.
Two, this unit will run over 500 pts, easy.

That being said, a unit of 24 of these guys with the BSB will beat almost everyone in one round of combat. Run in, kill nothing, lose a guy or two, and run from outnumbered.
The only thing to watch for is crafty generals who run in and kill the bsb so keep a unit champ to issue challenges when necessary.

I would run skeletons in 15 if you plan on equiping your vamps to summon more to the unit (and pay points for that power) or 25 otherwise. They can be subbed for ghouls for the same unit sizes (not tested though)

Ghouls have a use, they are cheaper than clanrats. Just run them on flanks to protect yourself and hope for a flank charge. Keep them disposable.

O, and aren't grave guard str4, not str5?

Yep, the new vanps are gold. My elves will pants them though.

Thanks for the input so far! Yes you are right that pretty much everything in the list is potentially a tar pit, I might look into the +1 to hit banner instead. I had kind of thought of running the skeletons at 25 just to have a large dangerous fear causing unit but I might go a little smaller depending on how easy/hard it appears to be to get the units much larger via magic. It will take some playtesting that is for sure. All of this is theoryhammer right now as I don't have all the skeletons that I need for the list so I haven't run it yet. I may do some proxying in friendly games with Zombies to try and get the numbers right.

Also, the grave guard are str4 (I think the statline is the same as in the existing book).

As for the ghouls since they are undead now I imagine I will use them (since I've already got the models) in some sort of flanking or flank protecticing capacity. I may possibly have them run around with the varghulf since he is a vampire (which I think means he makes them able to march ...may be wrong on this one since I am just going off of memory from a store copy of the book).

I am definitely looking forward to the new book, the army seems solid. I just wish that I didn't have to so thoroughly revamp everything but I suppose that is par for the course with GW.

I also heard that the new Knights of the Blood Keep will beat any other knights in the game, except maybe Khorne chosen knights due to high number of attacks. But they are a solid power unit now.

CanadianGreenskinofKhorne wrote:I also heard that the new Knights of the Blood Keep will beat any other knights in the game, except maybe Khorne chosen knights due to high number of attacks. But they are a solid power unit now.

The problem with the crazy knights are that 1) All the rare choices seem pretty nice so there is a heavy competition there and 2) These guys are very expensive and when you may be using often times 1000ish points on chars alone, it's hard to squeeze them in instead of, say, normal black knights.

It seems to me that they're expensive enough and since they count as vampires you would just about have to take them in lieu of other characters in "normal" points value games (2000 to 2250). Otherwise you'd be back to the old 4th ed. herohammer army with like 15 models. Also, I'd rather have "real" vampires that can cast magic and take items and do all of that sort of stuff.

I'm not planning on using them initially because of that and because I don't care to have a unit that is that expensive be redirected around the table all game by fleeing skirmishers.

I have a VC question myself.

I used to play Undead back when it was Undead, before Vampire counts and Khemri got their own army books. My favorite tactic was to load up on Necromancers and summon, summon, summon, and summon more Skellies and Zombies, and win through attrition.

Are vampire counts in their current form suitable at all to this sytle of play ?

I wasn't keen on starting a new Army, but the Vampire Counts Plastics are beautifull and I feel myself compelled to buy them wether I play them or not.

Absolutely suitable.

you can buy all sorts of custom crazy powers for vampire characters giving them extra power levels and power dice and what not. You can pretty easily amass a power dice pool that will rival even the most Marked out Tzeentch army in sheer amount of dices.

also, every caster in the army gets the basic summon zombies spell.

oh... right, also, you can only summon zombies now. can heal all units otherwise though.

also, every caster in the army gets the basic summon zombies spell.

Not exactly. Necromancers get to choose 1 of the necromancy spells, and may purchase additional necromancy spells.
All vampires know IoN, all other spells are rolled for on the Lore of Vampires. Tho you may choose to swap a spell for Raise Dead.
So they don't all get it by default, but you can give it to them if you wish.

I thought from briefely looking at the book is that a nice alternative to the super popular flying, terror causing vampire lord who causes -1 LD is one on a steed with the lance that auto hits and who has the vampire power that gives you extra attacks for each unsaved attack you cause. You hit automatically with 4-6 attacks, wound on 2+ your strength 7 so that should ignore most armour saves (except 2+ and 1+, but those units never have large numbers anyways) and then you get another additional 3-6 attacks. This process will rpeart again. People will be very angry when you vampire kills 5-10 models first round of combat. Backed up with fear, the unit you attacked is screwed.

Think the RedFury/Dreadlance Blood Dragon is pretty much the cookie cutter fighty killy lord now. And for good reason.

Also: Zombies are awesome! Swarm! Swaaaarm!

I picked up the VC army Book and I'm having a hard time NOT liking everything. Although all the Ld3 scares me on a knee jerk level.

I'm having a hard time envisioning myself ever fielding bat swarms. It's great that they can fly 10", but aside from harrassing warmachine crews, I can't see what they are good for.

CanadianGreenskinofKhorne wrote: Backed up with fear, the unit you attacked is screwed.

Only if you support your dragon. Lord + Dragon isn't going to outnumber much but knights and skirmishers (who'll all be dead, so woo the dead guys are really scared and run lol).

Na, if the guy is mounted on a dragon he can probabally beat almost any unit out there on the charge by 4-5.

The problems show when the enemy cunningly challenges with the unit champ and you get max kills of 1+5 overkill meaning you wont break much of anything (most units can lose by 1 and hold).

Granted, you can grind them down over time and if you lose, you only take 1 or 2 wounds unlike my dragon who flees whenever someone slaps him to hard.

Now, if you hit a flank you will probably destroy them, but that holds true for most dragon bound characters.

Personally, I would be inclined to go for extra attacks per kill, some sort of defensive gear, and magic powers.

Beating doesn't mean you win automatically since most dragon mounted characters don't outnumber the enemy so you can't break them with fear.

Thought that's what he was referring to, thus needing support of another fear causing unit to break the enemy.

seems like the dreadlance lord would be best in a unit of black knights to back him with numbers and a unit champ to take challenges. maybe double unit strength banner would be fun.

Stelek wrote:

CanadianGreenskinofKhorne wrote: Backed up with fear, the unit you attacked is screwed.

Only if you support your dragon. Lord + Dragon isn't going to outnumber much but knights and skirmishers (who'll all be dead, so woo the dead guys are really scared and run lol).

Ummm i didnt say the lord was on a dragon..... I said he was on a steed. Hes also with a unit of black knights so hes got the support he needs.

Skeletons are subpar this go round. Ghouls are almost as resilient (WS3 T4 v. WS 2 T3 4+ save) and offer alot more offensive power. Not to mention ghoulkin is sick....

Graveguard are very nasty now that they can be raised. The ultimate anvil.

Keep in mind Zombie dragons are much worse than most dragons. And still eat a slot. Also, Red Fury+Infinite Hatred can save you some points for a similar effect to DL.

As to bat swarms, they are infantry so you can raise 1d6. Now look at Creatures of the Night. Eh? Eh?

CanadianGreenskinofKhorne wrote:I also heard that the new Knights of the Blood Keep will beat any other knights in the game, except maybe Khorne chosen knights due to high number of attacks. But they are a solid power unit now.

I've been away from the game for awhile, but if Khorne knights still have 2 attacks post-frenzy then the Blood Knights out do them in that way as well with 3 attacks each after the frenzy bonus. Honestly, the Blood Knights remind me alot of the 5th edition Chaos Knights that I used to love so dearly, despite their rediculous points cost.

Chosen knights have 2 base attacks
In an ongoing combat the chaos knights will thrash the blood knights due to better armor (chosen get full plate) and better initiative.

Usually, it will come down to who charges.

The real strength of the blood Knights doesn't lie in thier statline. Being part of he vampire Counts list affords them many luxuries.
Their numbers can be restored
They can be given regeneration
They can be danced for extra movement, or to stike first
Zombies often spring up behind their foes, etc...

Hmm, the only thing I have against them is the cost of the actual models, at $115 for five.... thats completely outrageous, even by GW standards...

I suggest stealing them

Lol, now only if I could.....

Eventually I'm going to just pretend that they aren't just a box of fight cavlary and that they are the fantasy equivalent of a Land Raider made entirely out of metal.

Two weeks later, GW will release them in plastic, much to my dismay.

Use Bret knights instead and model them to look something like this:

Actually thats quite a good idea.