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I recently ran into somthing that could cause my problems and would like to get the rules references for it.
I am here not really interested in opinions and thus if you can not tell me where somthing is stated then please do not clog upp the thread.

As far as I know a unit when taking Ld tests use the highest Ld available to it, ie it uses the model with the highest Ld's Ld value.

This can however not be true for IG units with a commisar attached.

A commisar has a Ld of 10 and is attatched to units for the duration of battles, this would meen his Ld10 would be the highest of a model in the unit however as he also convay a +1 Ld modifier to the sergeant or officer he is attached to it seems his Ld is not used.

An IG sergeant has a Ld of 7, a vet sergeant has Ld 8 and officers have a Ld of 8 and heroic officers have Ld9.

Thus no matter what unit the commisar is attached to using his Ld would always be better than using the leading officer.

Reading the commisar entry on p41 and the advisory sidebar on p40 I can see nothing that states that a commisars Ld is not to be used apart from the implication that the +1Ld bonus implies.

Thus please, where in the rules does it state that commisars Ld does not replace the IG units's sergeant or officers Ld?

Thanx in advance.

fester wrote:As far as I know a unit when taking Ld tests use the highest Ld available to it, ie it uses the model with the highest Ld's Ld value.

This actually only applies to units joined by an Independant Character.

While it's generally accepted that units should use the highest Leadership, they missed actually including it in the rules.

So, unless a unit is joined by an Independant Character, what you should do if a unit contains mixed Ld values is (from a purely RAW viewpoint) unkown. The rules simply don't cover it.

Thus please, where in the rules does it state that commisars Ld does not replace the IG units's sergeant or officers Ld?

I vaguely recall it being mentioned in an FAQ at some point, but that might have been for 3rd edition. I believe the intention was to have the unit test on the Sergeant or Officer's Ld, but they never actually said that in the codex.

insaniak wrote:This actually only applies to units joined by an Independant Character.

While it's generally accepted that units should use the highest Leadership, they missed actually including it in the rules.

Yes I know they forgot to put in that a squad leaders Ld is to be used however this has been FAQed like you say, it was for 4th edition as 3rd include the rule in its core.

RAW as the rules stand in the first printing of the BGB you use majority Ld.

This is however not my beef.

My question in short is:
Is there any rule that states that a commisar does not convay his Ld to the unit?

Actually with a permissive ruleset you are looking for a rule that allows the unit to use the Commisar' leadership, not the other way around. As insaniak noted, this is not in the rules to start with, so by default you would not use his leadership for the unit anyway.

fester wrote:Yes I know they forgot to put in that a squad leaders Ld is to be used however this has been FAQed like you say, it was for 4th edition as 3rd include the rule in its core.

What I actually said was that I think it's been FAQ'd, but I'm not sure... and it's not in the current FAQ. After thinking about it, I'm fairly sure that the FAQ I was thinking of was just one of the unofficial GW board FAQs.

RAW as the rules stand in the first printing of the BGB you use majority Ld.

Sorry, how do you figure that?

Is there any rule that states that a commisar does not convay his Ld to the unit?

No.

Nor is there any rule that states that he does convey his Ld to the unit.

In which case he doesn't... and in the absence of rules telling us what to do in units with mixed Ld, that means that there is no RAW approach for dealing with the situation.

This is actually exactly the type of discussion I did not want to get into.

Thus forget everthing else and answer me this:

IG unit,
9 Guardsmen Ld 7.
1 vet sergeant Ld 8.
1 Commisar Ld 10.

Whos Ld do I use?

Are there any rules that support your position?

RAW how should it work?

RAI how do you think its suposed to work?

End!

fester wrote:This is actually exactly the type of discussion I did not want to get into.

Thus forget everthing else and answer me this:

but we have pointed out that the rules don't clarify who's leadership to use, so we will bring up the same thing when answering your example

IG unit,
9 Guardsmen Ld 7.
1 vet sergeant Ld 8.
1 Commisar Ld 10.

Whos Ld do I use?

Are there any rules that support your position?

RAW how should it work?

RAI how do you think its suposed to work?

End!

RAW: The rules don't say who's leadership to use. There is no solid RAW answer.

RAI: The Seargent leads the unit. As the commisar has a special rule to give a bonus to the Sgt or Officer, he gives a +1 to the Sgt, so the unit tests at 9 normally. If they fail and he executes the Sgt the unit tests at 8 (7+1) and then if they fail again he executes a regular soldier. The commisar's special rule indicates that he does not lead, he advises and give a bonus.

fester wrote:Whos Ld do I use?

The rules don't tell us.

Are there any rules that support your position?

No, there are no rules that tell us that there are no rules for mixed Ld.

RAW how should it work?

RAW it doesn't work.

Seriously, the rules simply don't cover mixed Ld units. It's a hole in the rules that the designers know about (as they were involved in the discussion about it on the GW boards back when 4th edition was first released, and basically just said 'whoops...') but have never bothered to plug.

RAI how do you think its suposed to work?

I believe that you're supposed to use the Sgt's Ld with the Commissar's bonus until the Commissar shoots him, and from then on use the Commissar's Ld.

Thank you this is what I wanted to get.. well not really I was hoping for FAQ/earrata links to show that the sergeant's Ld is to be used and a FAQ link to show that the commisars Ld was not.

I was actually almost 100% sure that the squad leader Ld issue had been erratad or at least FAQed but if you say it has not then I will take your word for it.

This could actually become a problem if an IG player gets a Junior officer, master vox and commisar in the command platoon and claims it counts as Ld 10.

Like you point out there is nothing that supports this however at the same time no rule can be produced that makes it untrue...

Well not much of a problem for me really, just wanted it clarified.

Well, no matter what it is the Officer's Ld that is used for the "Leadership" special rule (including the vox-caster rule).

So no matter how you play the Commissar there is no way his Ld of 10 is extending beyond the unit he is part of.

I always played it as simply, the commie increasing the leadership of squad leader. Otherwise, he was a non-entity unit the commander died. At that point the commie took control of the unit, but he could not broadcast his leadership over the vox. This meant there was an actual downside to losing the officer and it seemed logical even if it is a stretch of the RAW.

Hehehehe, as others have said, it's not really answered. But just to throw a few things out there...

Pg 13, Leadership Tests, says to use the "unit's Leadership value". OK, what's that? Guess what, it's not defined anywhere.
Pg 47, darn, uses the same phrase. We still don't know what to use.
Pg 51, hey hey, if an IC joins a unit, it must use his leadership! AND!! it also mentions that you can use the squads leadership value if it's better than the IC. But we still don't know how to determine a squad's leadership value.
But what about those non-IC characters, can we use their leadership. Go back to pg 12, Leadership characteristic. Looky looky, "Characters with a high Leadership can lead others, inspiring them... etc". There is our line showing that a non-IC character LD can be used by his squad.
So a squad with no characters (IC or non-IC uses it's (undefined) Leadership value. A squad with a non-IC character can use the non-IC LD, and a squad with an IC MUST use the IC LD unless it is lower than the squad's (undefined) LD value.

As to the Commissar question, the Summary Execeution rule strongly implies that the unit will not use the Commissar's LD until after he has performed a SE. After all, if they were using his LD, wouldn't he have to execute himself as he would be considered to be leading the squad? But it is just ambiguous enough to be confusing.

don_mondo wrote: Go back to pg 12, Leadership characteristic. Looky looky, "Characters with a high Leadership can lead others, inspiring them... etc". There is our line showing that a non-IC character LD can be used by his squad.

That line does nothing of the sort.

It says that the character can lead the squad. But nowhere do the rules say that the squad uses the Leadership value of the character leading them, except for squads joined by ICs.

It's a safe assumption, and GW have mentioned in the past that's it's the way it's supposed to work. But it's simply not in the rules.

Hrm... I assume, however, that the Independent Commissars Doctrine gets around this problem... As they then become Independent Characters and may thus (as best we can tell) use their Leadership value for the squad?

I.E. that squad of 50 conscripts led by a LD 10 Commissar works after all?

insaniak wrote:What I actually said was that I think it's been FAQ'd, but I'm not sure... and it's not in the current FAQ. After thinking about it, I'm fairly sure that the FAQ I was thinking of was just one of the unofficial GW board FAQs..

Try the last question on page three of this old FAQ.

Well an old FAQ reference is better than no reference.

It sure does show what the intent was back then. wonder if it has changed

insaniak wrote:

don_mondo wrote: Go back to pg 12, Leadership characteristic. Looky looky, "Characters with a high Leadership can lead others, inspiring them... etc". There is our line showing that a non-IC character LD can be used by his squad.

That line does nothing of the sort.

It says that the character can lead the squad. But nowhere do the rules say that the squad uses the Leadership value of the character leading them, except for squads joined by ICs.

It's a safe assumption, and GW have mentioned in the past that's it's the way it's supposed to work. But it's simply not in the rules.

Hmmmm, you're right, I'm inferring that they use his Leadership from the "lead the squad" bit, but it's not quite that clear cut.

Geddonight wrote:Hrm... I assume, however, that the Independent Commissars Doctrine gets around this problem... As they then become Independent Characters and may thus (as best we can tell) use their Leadership value for the squad?

I.E. that squad of 50 conscripts led by a LD 10 Commissar works after all?

Nope, he still has the Summary Execution rule which would override the standard IC ability to provide leadership.

IMO i would say if you take the Indy Commissars doctrine you could use his leadership. Otherwise use the sgt or officer's and add +1. When he gets summarily executed then use the commissars. Just my opinion. Cannot back it up with book although you said not to post unless we could. =p

smart_alex wrote:IMO i would say if you take the Indy Commissars doctrine you could use his leadership. Otherwise use the sgt or officer's and add +1. When he gets summarily executed then use the commissars. Just my opinion. Cannot back it up with book although you said not to post unless we could. =p

IMO, this is answered in the IG FAQ, the bit about who does he shoot if there is no Officer/Sgt present. Far as I can recall, the only unit that has no Oficer/Sgt is Conscripts, and only Indy Comms can join them. So apparently they're not using his leadership unti after he shoots one using the Summary Execution rule...................

Slightly OT, but related (and been bugging me as I want to start an Elysian army), does the officer's leadership (boosted by the commissar) get transmitted through the vox, or 12" command area?

No to the vox caster
yes to command area

smart_alex wrote:No to the vox caster
yes to command area

Unless you're playing in the UK GT, then you have to flip it around cause they can't read their own FAQs....................

Well I live in the USA, so I'm guessing that won't be the case.

Thanks.

dude what? I just read the FAQ 2 seconds ago. First bullet under miscalaneous. It says "commissars leadership bonus.. .. applies to officer's "leadership" special rule.

He meant the UK GT House Rules:

Q. When an Imperial Guard Officer’s leadership is used by a squad within 12” to test on, is his base leadership used, or does it include boosted leadership from items such as Commissars, Close Order Drill or other nearby officers?

A. Of the above, only the Close Order Drill would be used in addition to the officers base Ld, the others would have no effect.