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So I was idly looking at my army, and considering how I'd want weapons to work, if I had my way.

Plasma Pistol
Rg12" S4 AP3 Pistol

Plasma Gun
Rg24" S6 AP3 Rapid Fire

Plasma Cannon
Rg36" S8 AP3 Heavy Blast

Storm Bolter
Rg24" S4 AP5 Heavy 1
Rg12" S4 AP5 Heavy 3

Heavy Bolter
Rg48" S4 AP5 Heavy 4

Assault Cannon
Rg24" S7 AP4 Heavy 4

Melta Gun
Rg12" S8 AP1 Assault
Rg24" S8 AP1 Heavy

Multi-Melta
Rg24" S8 AP1 Heavy Twin-Linked

Flamethrower
Rg12" S4 AP5 Assault Template

Missile Launcher (Space Marine)
RgG48" S4 AP5 Heavy Blast
RgG48" S8 AP3 Heavy

Rocket Launcher (Imperial Guard)
Rg48" S4 AP5 Heavy Blast
Rg48" S8 AP3 Heavy

No, no and no.

It looks like the weapons were done by somebody who hates Marines(Hurr).


"Assault Cannon
Rg24" S7 AP4 Heavy 4"- NERFED
"Storm Bolter
Rg24" S4 AP5 Heavy 1
Rg12" S4 AP5 Heavy 3 "-Heavy? 1? 3?-I don't get it.


I like that you are considering different options. If I was any good at Math-hammer I could probably add some really constructive criticisms.


Plasma Pistol
Rg12" S4 AP3 Pistol

Plasma Gun
Rg24" S6 AP3 Rapid Fire

Plasma Cannon
Rg36" S8 AP3 Heavy Blast - Have you removed the 'Get's Hot' drawback in these weapons Nurg? I was not too sure is all.

That's an interesting critique, because my most recent army is Marines (dual Chaos/Blood Angels).

The Assault Cannon is basically an Autocannon with an inefficiently high rate of fire, hence it trades shorter range for more attacks and it's a nice medium between the Cyclone Missile Launcher and the Heavy Flamethrower.

The Storm Bolter is made Heavy for two reasons: the first is that Heavy is irrelevant to Terminators, it's the same as being Assault while giving Marine charactes a live option between a Storm Bolter and a Bolter. The short ranged attacks are basically a reaction to the accuracy of the Twin-Linked Bolters that Chaos Terminators get, as it's supposed to be a development of that weapon, and the single medium ranged attack again shows a development of stabilization in the Twin-Linked Bolter design. Basically it allows an Imperial Terminator to kick out 50% more firepower at short range, have mobile medium range firepower, and still employ it before engaging in an assault. That's something I don't think too many people think about when they compare Chaos Terminators to Imperial Terminators - that Imperial Terminators can use their Storm Bolters before the assault and that helps to compensate somewhat for their limited numbers, whereas the more flexible Chaos Terminators cannot do that unless they take Combi-Weapons. Basically what this does is improve the Storm Bolter as a weapon for Terminators and vehicles, while reining it in as a weapon for Power Armoured Marines. It also makes it a handy SAW for Sisters of Battle.

Incidentally:

Cyclone Missile Launcher
Rg48" S4 AP5 Heavy 2 Blast
Rg48" S8 AP3 Heavy Twin-Linked

Heavy Flamethrower
Rg12" S5 AP4 Heavy Template

I do agree that the plasma weapons do seem a bit over the top in their effect, however if they were removed there would be few other weapons capable of defeating Terminators.

However, maybe a more viable option would be to limit such weapons. Anti-tank weapons as well. Expensive armored vehicles that do not have complicated or effective defenses against incoming fire are easily incapacitated before their effects can be applied.

So starting a system of anti-armor weapon systems would be a good idea. But nerfing weapons is hardly a fair trade and really starts a new problem of properly adjusting their points value and availability/distribution.

Salient points indeed Nurglitch, and a good reasoned viewpoint. Did you see my question about the Plasma's ?

Also
Melta Gun
Rg12" S8 AP1 Assault
Rg24" S8 AP1 Heavy

Seems like a nice adjustment there. I have always been of the opinion that Melta Guns should use this...

Melta Gun
S8, AP2, Template.(for the 2d6 AP on Vehicles too)
or
S8, AP3, 24" Heavy.

It sort of fits in with the background I have read on them(Jurgen, Commissars Aide de Camp uses one...)

What are your thoughts gentlemen?

I always seemed to imagine it as having either a column of effect, like an acetylene torch. However I recognised that the Melta-systems are much grander and based one a different technology (or is it?!). So for a while I thought it would have a reversed template effect, which seems to be more cannon then a regular template positioning. I also proposed this for ordinance cannons, as they do have a blast area in real-life, placed at the end of the barrel pointed at the target. That was more for fluff then actual effect, however.

akira5665: Well, obviously I like my idea better. I had considered the template idea, but that was covered by the Plasma Cannon and besides it makes for a nice progression of high Strength low AP single Attack for Melta, medium Strength medium AP two Attacks for Plasma, and low Strength high AP template Attacks for Flamethrowers. The AP1 in particular is characteristic of Melta weaponry, emphasizing its cutting power.

Something interesting to note would be the effect of fempto-second lasers. These lasers basically flash so fast that the materials being flashed can't dump the heat energy into the surrounding area. Instead of melting or evaporating, they disintegrate the material. One advantage to releasing photons in fempto-second long bursts is that you don't need so much power to draw on - it's concentrated in the burst rather than drawn out. Firing slightly longer bursts of energy are how I imagine Melta Guns get their effects: the blast is short enough that it can be produced by a man-portable, but also long enough that you get some interesting thermal effects of material adjacent to the tiny area that gets hit with microwaves or x-rays or whatever a Melta device might use. Basically you'd get the material fusing before disintegration, so puncturing a fuel-tank (or even an oxygen-bearing atmosphere inside the hull) would have nasty pyrotechnic and electrical effects against a vehicle, but must less effect against a correspondingly smaller target. Likewise the amount of atmosphere fusing would shorten the range of the weapon, or require that it be held on targets at long range before an appropriately lethal amount of energy can be delivered through the ablative atmospheric effects. The area of effect, I think, is covered nicely by making the Multi-Melta Twin-Linked.

Akira5665-
Plasma Cannon
Rg36" S8 AP3 Heavy Blast - Have you removed the 'Get's Hot' drawback in these weapons Nurg? I was not too sure is all.
And

Salient points indeed Nurglitch, and a good reasoned viewpoint. Did you see my question about the Plasma's ?

OI!!!! What's the deal mate? lol

This Idea by Skinnattittar-

So for a while I thought it would have a reversed template effect, which seems to be more cannon then a regular template positioning.

THAT is a waaay cool idea. 'reversed Template'..................cool.

If you look closely, you will find a distinct lack of the words "Gets Hot" in the descriptions of those Plasma Weapons.

In the fluff about Melta-systems they have flasks of fuel in many cases. However this simply being a fuel for a power generating source is not completely improbable. This is also where I got my belief that Melt-systems were idealogically based on acetylene torches.

Though I do really like your treatise on fempto based laser systems, it communicates the idea very well, in my opinion. It also keeps the weapon effect in a column rather then a template shape.

Nuglitch:

Plasma Pistol
Rg12" S4 AP3 Pistol

Plasma Gun
Rg24" S6 AP3 Rapid Fire

and

Plasma Cannon
Rg36" S8 AP3 Heavy Blast

I did look veeeery carefully Sir. Why I was asking, and perhaps why I asked again is, The plasma pistol, and Assault rifle(only comparison sry) have had thier strengths reduced. So like the DIRTY TAU they do not suffer the 'Get's hot ' rule. However, the Plasma Cannon went UP in strength. So I wasn't sure if it was a typo, or intentional.

That's "femto." No "p."

The assault cannon can have a very high rate of fire, but is prone to jamming. I would like to see the rules take this into account again. Something like Heavy max{4,D6}. If a 1 is rolled, the assault cannon jams and fires 0 shots.

Personally, I think the jamming rule is too much fluff making itself onto the battle field. Weapons jam, yes, but not really enough to doom a weapon one in six shots! If it really were that bad then no-one with half a brain and a bag of cheetos would take it out of the armory! I think it is a left-over of 40k's goofy past legacy that just hasn't quite left the books yet. Or they're using it to try and cut the price of the weapon down. Either way, it's kinda hokey, in my opinion.

Back in 3rd edition all players wanted was to get rid of the Assault Cannon jamming and give it the extra attack. Hence the profile I've stated here. Of course, I've given it an extra point of Strength, but that's to make up for its medium range.

Here's an IG players viewpoint

Plasma Pistol
Rg12" S4 AP3 Pistol

Unless this is a lot more points than a Bolt pistol there's no reason to not equip all officers and NCO's with this. It's reliable and has very good stopping power. Perhaps a little too good.

Plasma Gun
Rg24" S6 AP3 Rapid Fire

What do the other special weapon options do? who cares? Probably a bit too good.

Plasma Cannon
Rg36" S8 AP3 Heavy Blast

Seems a reasonable weapon option on a Demolisher, perhaps a little too good for a Gun Servitor. Not encountered enough to be game breaking.

Storm Bolter
Rg24" S4 AP5 Heavy 1
Rg12" S4 AP5 Heavy 3

Seems a little harsh, from an IG perspective this weapon is now useless.

Heavy Bolter
Rg48" S4 AP5 Heavy 4

A slight nerf, especially vs. light vehicles, makes the Autocannon more useful.

Assault Cannon
Rg24" S7 AP4 Heavy 4

What's an assault cannon? are you making weapons up now?

Melta Gun
Rg12" S8 AP1 Assault
Rg24" S8 AP1 Heavy

It's lost the 'melta' rule right? Another reason to take Plasmaguns.

Multi-Melta
Rg24" S8 AP1 Heavy Twin-Linked

Nice, uncommon but useful.

Flamethrower
Rg12" S4 AP5 Assault Template

This works like a mini inferno cannon for template placement right? A nice boost.

Missile Launcher (Space Marine)
RgG48" S4 AP5 Heavy Blast
RgG48" S8 AP3 Heavy

'Guess range' for frag yes, for Krak no.

Rocket Launcher (Imperial Guard)
Rg48" S4 AP5 Heavy Blast
Rg48" S8 AP3 Heavy

See above.

I like the rules for melta weapons and the Cyclone (which is long overdue).

If you want an example of another valid critism, under these rules there is really no point to taking a plasma gun over a meltagun.

Well, I must say you nerfed the crap out of the Heavy Bolter, actually. It's pretty much just a fast firing bolter now with a longer reach, I really didn't see too much of a problem with it before, since unless it was on a vehicle, you didn't see many of them compared to your normal light-arms (bolters, lasguns, shuriken cannons, ect...).

However, if you boosted the autocannon to ST8 AP3, that would make the autocannon and the heavy bolter (that you proposed) very unique weapons, and both would fit into their fluff much better.

I think leaving the Autocannon at S7 is important. Firstly it means that Autocannon fire is not strong enough to harm Armour 14, and that slower-firing anti-tank weapons are required (Lascannons, Missile Launchers, Plasma Cannons, etc).

With regards to the Bolters, a recent news story featuring a grenade machine gun made me think about Bolters and how they might work. So...

Bolt Pistol
Rg12" S4 AP5 Pistol

Bolt Gun
Rg24" S4 AP5 Assault 1 Blast

Storm Bolt Gun
Rg24" S4 AP5 Assault 2 Blast

Heavy Bolt Gun
Rg36" S4 AP5 Heavy 3 Blast

Note then that this basically makes the Bolt Gun a high tech Grenade Launcher, which is about right if you scale the Bolters on the Tactical Space Marine sprue according to the size difference between the Space Marine Heavy Bolter and the Imperial Guard Heavy Bolter.

This also leaves the Missile Launcher with the advantages of range and dual-purpose ammunition. Comparatively the Autocannon has the same range advantage as the Missile Launcher, but nowhere near the anti-personal capability of the Heavy Bolter. The Autocannon's second advantage is naturally its improve Armour Piercing of 3. Thus the Heavy Bolter is anti-light infantry, the Autocannon is anti-heavy infantry and anti-light vehicle, the Lascannon is anti-tank, and the Missile Launcher is anti-everything at the cost of the effectiveness of dedicated weaponry but also gains the ability for indirect fire (not shared by the Rocket Launcher).

Also, about the Plasma Pistols. According to the Chaos Marine book a Plasma Pistol is usually an upgrade costing 15 points. According to this version, that 15 points buys you Sv3+ stopping power - light vehicles and tactical dreadnoughts are no longer hugely threatened by it (not anymore than they are threatened by the bolt pistol). It becomes the Pistol equivalent of a Power Weapon upgrade.

Likewise there are plenty of reasons to take a Melta Gun. Instantly killing T4 creatures, for example, or defeating Tank armour. I took off the Melta effect because the AP1 effects doubles-up on that (especially as it is rumoured to in 5th edition) and it's un-necessary against infantry armour. In recompense the Multi-Melta is much more likely to hit, and the Melta Gun is slightly more flexible than the Plasma Gun (you can assault after using it, for example, likewise with the Flamethrower).

I was also thinking about Battle Cannons, and about the suggestion earlier for using Templates with the pointy end away from the attacker. This got me thinking about shaped charges and what-not. Therefore:

Battle Cannon (HEAP)
Rg72" S8 AP3 Ordnance, Large Blast

Battle Cannon (APAT)
Rg72" S10 AP2 Ordnance

Battle Cannon (HEAT)
Rg72" S8 AP1 Ordnance, Template*

The Template is placed over the target with the pointy-end facing directly away from the Battlecannon, to represent the jet of the shaped charge.

Making the plasma systems AP3 instead of 2 really cuts back one of their main effects as an anti-terminator, and similiar level armor save units, weapon. With plasma removed from the field, that only leaves the Earthshaker, Melta, Lascannon, and power weapons. Since the Earthshaker is not a common field weapon, and not available to Marines, and Melta weapons are hard to get models for (especially for the IG) not to mention that their area of effect is rather small, leaving expensive lascannons to cover the range, this pretty much means Armor Save 2+ units will sweep the field with little to no worry of taking heavy losses, as those pesky lascannons can be distracted with armored vehicles and other heavy infantry (3+). Granted, this makes 2+ armor more valuable, but it leaves armies without access to them or weapons to defeat them in a MAJOR disadvantage.

Unfortunately, HEAT rounds do not work that way. They are very direct and their effect range is short. Their purpose is to burn a hole in the armor instantly, then blast either hot explosive gasses inside the vehicle, or cause lethal spalling (turning the inside armor into fragmentation). Nor do I see this template layout as particularly effective or even interesting, just an odd quick.

As for giving the missile launcher Guess range ability, effectively turning it into a very useful mortar, I don't understand the justification. Missiles just are not made like that. Though I suppose this is the year 40k, and it IS possible. But if it is available to Marines, why not to IG?

Yes, cutting back on people relying on Plasma Weapons to deal with Terminators and other models with superlative armour saving throws is not only intentional but the primary motivating factor in wishing for Plasma Weapons to be reigned back from AP2. Indeed, as you have noticed this motivates a preference for Melta weaponry.

So what advantage does a Plasma Gun have over a Melta Gun given that they would have equivalent range and the Plasma Gun wouldn't hit as hard? The easy answer is, of course, volume of fire. There's a reason Tau players often prefer Plasma Rifles to Fusion Guns, and that's because it can kill twice as many Marines (or twice as many as anything else).

Having Plasma Weapons dialed back does not make Sv2+ models can "sweep the field with little to no worry of taking heavy lesses". It simply means that players will have to rely on volume of fire to deal with these units rather than 15 point super-weapons.

With regard to HEAT rounds, nothing in Warhammer 40k works like it's labeled. I see no reason to buck this trend. Regardless the AP1 of the HEAT round represents the shaped charge effect, while the Template merely represents the explosive effect that such weapons can be used for

Similarly the Missile Launcher is a high-tech Space Marine weapon, the Human equivalent of a Tau smart missile, while the Rocket Launcher is the low-tech mass-produced tube that's distributed to Imperial Guard and PDFs. The justification is that it gives the Space Marines a very flexible jack-of-all-trades weapons as an alternative to the specialist weapons (Heavy Bolter, Lascannon, Multi-Melta) that's not as expensive as the Plasma Cannon and more flexible.

Skinnattittar wrote:Making the plasma systems AP3 instead of 2 really cuts back one of their main effects as an anti-terminator, and similiar level armor save units, weapon. With plasma removed from the field, that only leaves the Earthshaker, Melta, Lascannon, and power weapons. Since the Earthshaker is not a common field weapon,

The Earthshaker Cannon (on a Basilisk) is S9 AP_3_.

Perhaps you are thinking of the S10 AP2 Demolisher? Which is shared with the Marines on their Vindicator? Yes?

So instead of nerfing the Plasma weapons completely, why not just make them less available? I do agree that many armies *cough*Tau*cough* seem to be able to gear themselves rather easily to be anti-everything, while only using the excuse "they're more technologically advanced" and then pooping on your army with screaming hot gasses. So limiting these weapons numbers would make a better alternative, I think.

Because (a) They aren't being 'nerfed completely', and (b) this is about how I wish that weapons worked, not how codex options and points values might work.

Touche