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This issue is only relevant in a few cases and I generally just agree with my opponents as the the outcome. As this has had drastically different impact on some on the games I have played I feel the need to inquire.


I have looked and occationally prodded, but I cannot understand this one either.
like biovores and the cost for spore chimney/capallary towers





rarrr

How does this become relevant?

A Tyrant and his guard are a unit.

Phoenix wrote:How does this become relevant?

Some special rules affect 'broods', not 'units'.

Question, is brood just another word for unit, much like mob is another word for unit for orks or is there some real significant difference?

Snooggums, you say some special rules affects broods but not units, wich are they?
Does the rules state specifically that a power effects broods and not units or are some powers just described as giving somthing or other to broods while others do the same to units?

If there is a difference between what a brood is as oposed to a unit then nither the tyrant nore the guard are brood as nither is defined as a brood in the rules (naturally GW can have made a mistake and missed out adding in Brood...).

If brood and unit is the same thing brood just being a nidification of the term unit then both the tyrant is a single monstrous creature unit and the guard makes upp a unit of 1-3 guard.

The way the word brood is used I am inclined to belive brood and unit is synonamous but I have nor read the codex in depth.

Codex not in front of me, but I remember the one psychic power that allows them to hit back even if they die first (Stimutax or something) targets a brood. Most units in the codex are referred to are broods, including Guants and Genestealers. Guard aren't called a brood, so if broods are not just the names for tyranid units then that power would not work on guard.

There have been previous threads on this before. I am not advocating a side, Phoenix had just asked how it became relevant.

The name of the psychic power is catalyst.

Oh, and I just think that 'Brood' is just another name for a unit, to go with the fluff.

Yes, sounds like brood is just a name used as "unit" sounds as wrong for nids as it does for orks.

The catalyst hive mind power however does not name brood, in my book it specifies a tyrranid unit.

Glad that folks can see why I asked. . .

I do not like to go to a game with assumptions. I generally just lay out all the things in the rules that can cause problems before things start. This one actually caught me when I was looking something up for someone else. So now I just ask the people I play.

The difference in response startled me so I wanted to ask Dakka. . .

fester wrote:Yes, sounds like brood is just a name used as "unit"

This is wrong. The Tyranid clearly lists which units are also 'broods,' which is essentially everything save for Tyrants and Tyrant Guard. If something effects tyranid units, then it will also effect these. However, if it specifically targets 'broods' then both the tyrant and his buddies are out.

Bookwrack wrote:

fester wrote:Yes, sounds like brood is just a name used as "unit"

This is wrong. The Tyranid clearly lists which units are also 'broods,' which is essentially everything save for Tyrants and Tyrant Guard. If something effects tyranid units, then it will also effect these. However, if it specifically targets 'broods' then both the tyrant and his buddies are out.

So does it anywhere actually state that there is a difference between brood and unit?

The only claim I have seen thus far is the catalyst hive mind power but in my book that lists unit not brood.

Thus as far as I can see the 'brood' term is simply a nid name for unit... just like mob is an ork name for unit.

If you can give me a reference anywhere in the Nid codex where it clearly states there is a difference between unit and brood then I will accept your position in a second, I have however not seen a single such reference, and no, the fact that the tyrant and guard do not have brood in their description is not a reference as they do not in its place have them refered to as unit or anything else.

Supporting the theory that brood = unit is the brood entry on page 34 under army list entries in wich it clearly equates brood with unit.

My guess is that GW just made a mistake in the entry forgetting the format for thise two unit types.
I meen the tyrant guard dosnt even follow the normal army list entry of
Unit name - Profile - Brood - Biomorphs/weapon symbiotes - special rules
but have all its info squished into the special rule Tyrant Guard entry.

In short, point me to the info please.

If you can give me a reference anywhere in the Nid codex where it clearly states there is a difference between unit and brood then I will accept your position in a second, I have however not seen a single such reference, and no, the fact that the tyrant and guard do not have brood in their description is not a reference as they do not in its place have them refered to as unit or anything else.

the problem with this stance is that it is along the lines of "If you can't show me where the book says I can't 'xyz,'" then I can.

WH40K rules are restrictive (i;e; permission required). You can only do what you are told you CAN do. If certain units are described as broods and others are not, regardless of whether or not they are described as a unit, then it is clearly defined which units are broods. If the Tyrant & his guard aren't described as a brood, then they cannot benefit from any powers that specify "brood."

If a unit of Ogryns were, for example, described as 'Ogryn,' but an IG unit wasn't described as 'Human', that doesn't mean they are 'Ogryn' (since 'Ogryn' is used once, but "human" is never used).

Eric

MagickalMemories wrote:WH40K rules are restrictive (i;e; permission required). You can only do what you are told you CAN do. If certain units are described as broods and others are not, regardless of whether or not they are described as a unit, then it is clearly defined which units are broods. If the Tyrant & his guard aren't described as a brood, then they cannot benefit from any powers that specify "brood."

Ok, lets go back to basics and ask for the same thing again.

Tell me the name and the page number of a special rule or power that is described as only affecting brood.

The reason I want this is that the only such reference I have been able to get from this thread is catalyst.
The problem I have here tho is that in my nid codex it does not specify 'brood', the power states you nominate a tyrranid 'unit'.

Thus if there are no powers that separate brood from unit then it does not matter if there is a difference.

Thus please, give me a reference.

As for this

WH40K rules are restrictive (i;e; permission required).

sillyness, yes the rules are written defining what you can do but if you have followed GW for any amount of time you will know GW are prone to make very silly mistakes in their publications and be very honest in their position that they could not even imagine that anyone would even consider not using common sence... well, its really GW's most endeering weakness

In short, it is entirelly possible that brood is simply a flavor name for unit, it actually to me seems very probable but if you want to prove me wrong (somthing I actually hope I am) then give me a reference, simply stating "you are wrong as brood is not in the tyrranid or guard entry" dosent really sway any minds in this thread as the question is wether or not its a typo that brood is left out of those two entries.

Brood is the term for a Nid unit. Like Squad is a SM unit.

It isn't that big of a deal.

In all fairness, I believe most folks Codex will say that under "Catalyst". However, issue can be made with the text listed under "Bonesword" as it is defininitively NOT the same.

There are others but mostly those examples cause less issue.

Good call, Bonesword actually states that all 'broods' within 6" will be affected by catalyst if the tyrant makes a psychic test.

Its sad that you do not list the other cases apart from the bonesword, to me that still just looks like a brood being the nidified way to say unit.

Again I would like to state that the only place I have found brood defined as anytrhing is on page 34 under ARMY LIST ENTRIES where the first line is:
Brood: This shows the number of models in the unit, ...

I have found no other mention that seems to sugest there is any difference whatsoever between brood and unit.

Like has been pointed out GW likes to codexify terminology.

In the SM codex they frequently use the term squad to signify unit, the ork codex has mob, the TAU codex has team, squad, squadron and strain.

I meen I have in a thread as to who may shoot in an artillery unit actually been told all models in a big gunz battery is crew as the designation krew is not the same as crew.

fester wrote:
Ok, lets go back to basics and ask for the same thing again.
Tell me the name and the page number of a special rule or power that is described as only affecting brood.
The reason I want this is that the only such reference I have been able to get from this thread is catalyst.
The problem I have here tho is that in my nid codex it does not specify 'brood', the power states you nominate a tyrranid 'unit'.
Thus if there are no powers that separate brood from unit then it does not matter if there is a difference.
Thus please, give me a reference.

I couldn't give you a reference, as I don't have a Nid codex with me.
I do find it interesting that YOUR codex says "Tyranid Unit," however, and not "brood."
It seems to me that the issue has been resolved by GW by way of a grammatical fix. The only question is to figure out if YOUR codex or Kirsanth's is the newer one. Whomever has the newest codex would have the proper info. If your's is newer, then they fixed it to read how they wanted it to be. If HIS is newer, then they changed it to "brood," specifically to disallow certain units.

fester wrote:As for this

WH40K rules are restrictive (i.e.; permission required).

sillyness, yes the rules are written defining what you can do but if you have followed GW for any amount of time you will know GW are prone to make very silly mistakes in their publications and be very honest in their position that they could not even imagine that anyone would even consider not using common sence... well, its really GW's most endeering weakness

First off, it isn't silliness. It's fact. Without it, the game becomes subject to the whims of each individual gamer.

That being said...

I agree that they make a LOT of errors that editors SHOULD but DON'T find & fix. I also believe that this could, truly, be one of them. The problem is in interpreting what we believe to be an error.
I think that S3 for orks (the same as Humans) is asinine, considering the powerful build and hugely muscled bodies they are always written as having. Does that mean it is acceptable for me to change my ork stats to make all Orks S4, because I'm certain they just messed it up? Certainly not. It means Orks have the same Str as IG until GW fixes it.

We can't change rules just because we think they were mistaken.
I take that back... we CAN change rules, but they become "House Rules," then... I mean, for public use, we should use RAW and you can't say that GW makes a lot of mistakes & we should use common sense to figure them out. What is defined as "common sense," I can tell you, varies drastically from person to person.

fester wrote:In short, it is entirelly possible that brood is simply a flavor name for unit, it actually to me seems very probable but if you want to prove me wrong (somthing I actually hope I am) then give me a reference, simply stating "you are wrong as brood is not in the tyrranid or guard entry" dosent really sway any minds in this thread as the question is wether or not its a typo that brood is left out of those two entries.

I agree that it's possible... I agree that it's probable... The problem, however, is that I can't "prove you wrong," because you are expressing an opinion. Opinions are never wrong, as they're not factual. The most that can be done is to prove the information that the opinion is based on to be wrong.

Given the strictures you've placed, it's impossible to give you what you want.
Just because it isn't explicitly stated, word for word, doesn't mean it isn't true.
What I mean by that is, if EVERY ENTRY in the codex is described as being a "Brood," except for, say, 2, then it is obvious that those 2 aren't broods, as they're not said to be broods.

Ogryn in the IG codex are described by their racial type. Since IG troops don't say they're human, can we presume they're Ogryn?

I do want to reiterate something, in case I wasn't clear on it.
I think that it will turn out (if we ever get a definitive answer from GW) that "brood" is a generic term.

The issue I have is that, right now, we don't have that definitive answer. Thus, we have to interpret the rules in the most restrictive fashion to keep in line with (a) the 40K rules style and (b) GW's statement that uncertain rules should be interpreted in the weakest fashion (not a direct quote, obviously).


Eric

Well,
When I was actually discussing this I refered to the "synapse" rules to show the stupidity of differention of "brood" and "unit"

However, besides the bonesword and synapse, I shall have to go look up other examples. . . there were at least two more if I recall correctly.

The problem seems to be another thing I just ask my opponent about. . . it is only to my (a Tyranid player) advantage to assume they are interchangable terms.
And that would be rude, so I leave the call to my opponent.

The problem seems to be another thing I just ask my opponent about. . . it is only to my (a Tyranid player) advantage to assume they are interchangable terms.
And that would be rude, so I leave the call to my opponent.

I agree. Well said.

...and I would like to supplement that quote by adding, "It would be equally rude, and unsportsmanlike, for your opponent to disallow you from counting those units as "broods" for that purpose."

Eric

I guess the question I ask is:

Are these former Tyranid players asking you NOT to call these guys a 'brood' so they can exploit a loophole and dick you over?

Usually that's where things like this come up.

Very poor sportsmanship if it's the case.

No.
It is something I bring up to most people, as I do not assume they are intimately familiar with my codex. . . unless they are also fielding Tyranids.
As the wording is ambiguous most people have simply let me decide, or said "Whatever works best for you".
The times that is not the case, I have heard all the above lines in person. Never really matters recently as I do not actually use that regularly, but I have a number of things I just always ask players before games and this recently became one of them.
It has never become any kind of sportsmanship issue in my experience. I was however hoping for at least a general idea as to how this was read by folks on Dakka.

Tyrant guard is a brood like Ogryn are Imperial Guard Infantry. They are not noted as being such, so aren't. The IG codex just explains it more clearly.

Tyranid codex pg.34
'ARMY LIST ENTRIES'... Brood: This shows the number of models in the unit, or the number of models you may take for one choice from the FOC...

The Hive Tyrant is a monstrous creature unit with a brood size of itself + any applicable retinue. The Tyrant Guard form a retinue with the Hive Tyrant (which still deploys as a Monstrous Creature).

The Carnifex Unit, while not called a 'Carnifex Brood', would qualify as having a brood size of itself.
A 'Genestealer Brood' is a Tyranid Unit composed of between 6 and 12 Genestealers. etc.

Merely not having the term 'Brood' in the nomenclature of a unit does not remove the unit from being a Tyranid brood. Also having the nomenclature of 'Brood' in the unit name does not make it something other than a Tyranid Unit.

A 'brood' is a number of models comprising a Tyranid unit.

that's really not so hard.

Actually the Carnifex entry states "Brood: 1 Carnifex" but I am not sure that helps.

kirsanth wrote:Actually the Carnifex entry states "Brood: 1 Carnifex" but I am not sure that helps.

Very true, I was referring to the Carnifex as a Tyranid Unit which did not include 'Brood' in the Unit Name.

Thanks for helping me clarify that!

Ok new question:

If the Tyrant and guard are not broods may they get biomorphs/weapon-symbiotes and follow the special rules?

The reason I ask is that those two armylist entries are specified to be available to the broods they are listed in.
If the tyrant for example is not a brood then the entries are not for them.

As an example, the exact wording in my codex for special rules is
"Special Rules: This is where you'll find all special rules that apply to the brood."

The tyrants special rules are MC, fearless and retinue... but as the tyrant is not a brood then the section would not apply to it.

Now it is very obvious to all of us that the biomorph, weapon-symbiote and special rules listed under the tyrant apply to the tyrant and likewise to (I hope) most of ut it is equally obvious that brood = unit and thus the tyrant is a brood of 1 that can be joined by a brood of tyrant guard brood of 0-3 guards.