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Greets guys. I tried searching here and came up short.

There was a debate a bit back about declaring multiple charges and shooting.


Essentially the whole matter can be found on page 36. "Shooting and Assaulting"

The first part of the rule seems to make it fairly clear:

"A unit that fired in the Shooting phase of the current turn may only declare a charge against the unit it shot at."

However, the contention comes in with this:

"A unit may charge multiple enemy units but only if the charging unit can reasch them all without losing unit coherency."

That doesn't contradict anything by itself, but then they give us this in the same paragraph as multiple charges:

"If the unit fired in the Shooting phase it must start it charge by engaging the unit it shot at."

Now, to me this is a clear indicator that I may shoot at a squad and then perform a multiple charge (assuming of course I start the charge by engaging the unit I shot at). However It has been argued that the first rule super cedes this.

What are your thoughts? Am I misunderstanding something?

And Yak - any chance of getting this into the INAT FAQ one way or another?? >_<

Thanks in advance.

As your second and third quotes are specific exemptions to the normal rule that they can only charge the unit they shoot at so there is no rule contradiction. Like how all infantry may move up to 6 inches but some special rules add to that distance.

If you shoot you can only assault that unit. This is specified by the first quote above. It is further enforced in the following page where it gives instructions on how to move into assault. Page 37 specifically states that you can only move your models into contact with unit(s) you declared charges against.

Since you can only declare charges against a single unit if you shoot - then you can only move models into contact with that single unit. Furthermore, you must keep 1" away from all other units throughout your charge.

I dont really see a problem.

If you look at the Declare Charges section of the Assault Phase, Paragraph 3 of the "Shooting and Assaulting" rules on p36 covers charging multiple units, it starts with the text
"A unit may charge multiple enemy units, ..."
The last scentence of that paragraph deals with multiple charges and shooting and it reads:
"If the unit fired in the Shooting phase it must start its charge by engaging the unit it shot at."

Now if a unit that shot in the shooting phase is not allowed to charge any other unit apart from the one it shot at then why is that scentence in there?

Obviously you are allowed to shoot at unit A, declare a charge against unit A and if you choose and are able you are also alowed to engage unit B.

If it in the end is possible to charge unit B is covered in "Move Charging Units" p37-38 and as the rules for moving charging units is very strict it is very possible that it is impossible to charge multiple units but in the situations where it is possible then it is allowed.

Fester has it right there. If unit A shot unit B in the shooting phase, it must charge unit B if it is going to assault. However the multiple charge rules allow you to also declaire unit C as a secondary charge target. Keep in mind though that unit B must be your primary charge target.

Democratus wrote:Page 37 specifically states that you can only move your models into contact with unit(s) you declared charges against.

Can you quote this exact rule, Democratus? I don't have access to my rulebook until April.

If there actually is a rule that says you an only move models into contact with a unit you *declared* a charge on, then that would create a contradiction.

The rules stated so far are not contradictory, since they make a distinction between (1) the unit you *declare* a charge on and (2) any other units you may be charging in addition to the one you declared.

Fester has it right there. If unit A shot unit B in the shooting phase, it must charge unit B if it is going to assault. However the multiple charge rules allow you to also declaire unit C as a secondary charge target. Keep in mind though that unit B must be your primary charge target.

How is that possible when you are specifically breaking a rule to do it, since you can only assault the unit you shot at?

I don't have my BGB here. Is there something that specifically states that you can break the above rule in order to multi charge? Otherwise, you can only charge the unit you fired at.

You'd have to forego shooting to multi-charge.

Eric

MagickalMemories wrote:

How is that possible when you are specifically breaking a rule to do it, since you can only assault the unit you shot at?

I don't have my BGB here. Is there something that specifically states that you can break the above rule in order to multi charge? Otherwise, you can only charge the unit you fired at.

Eric, nobody has yet quoted a rule that says you can only assault the unit you shot at.

The OP quoted a rule that says you can only *declare* a charge against a unit you shot at. Declaring a charge and actually charging are two different things.

The OP also quoted a rule that specifically says you can charge more than one unit as long as models remain in coherency.

Unit A shoots at Unit B. Unit B, C and D are all lined up in a straight line. Unit A has to assault Unit B, however if they can remain in coherency can also charge Unit C and D. Your charge is declared on B, but you may base C&D if you can keep your coherency. It really aint so complicated

BGBor not, there is a very small paragraph that deals with multiple charges, the paragraph is 58 words in all and in my earler post I identified it as close as I possibly could without actually quoting the whole thing (somthing I may not do).

The only part of those 58 words even mentioning shooting and multimple charging is the part I did qoute above and here quote again:

fester wrote:If the unit fired in the Shooting phase it must start its charge by engaging the unit it shot at

It makes it amply clear that you may charge multiple units after shooting but you must start your charge by engaging the unit you did shoot at.

In short you may charge multiple units after shooting as long as the first model you move is moved into BtB with the unit you shot at.

i think the thing to remember also is that to declare multiple assaults, you have to meet the requirements of the first charge. meaning if any model in your squad can get in b2b, they have to. if anyone is left over, they can charge anyother unit that allows them to stay in cohesion.

i think the thing to remember also is that to declare multiple assaults, you have to meet the requirements of the first charge. meaning if any model in your squad can get in b2b, they have to. if anyone is left over, they can charge anyother unit that allows them to stay in cohesion.

I doubt the veracity of your claim. Quote, please?

This one always causes problems with our group. I'm not sure how

"A unit that fired in the Shooting phase of the current turn may only declare a charge against the unit it shot at."

is contradicted in any way by

"A unit may charge multiple enemy units but only if the charging unit can reasch them all without losing unit coherency."

If anything, the fact that you can charge multiple units is specifically restricted in the case where you shot - in that case, you can only declare the charge against ONE unit, the one you shot at.

at the end of "move charging units" it says

You may not move models within 1" of enemy models from any unit they are not charging

I guess the issue always is - does the first rule - If you shoot at someone, you can only declare a charge against them - trump any other rules about multiple charges being legal. I say yes, and if you want to charge multiple units on your assault phase, you have to not shoot. This may or may not be the intention but I feel it is pretty clear. All the rules about multiple charges are assuming you did not shoot - if you shot, well, that goes out the window, and all that matters is you can only declare your charge against the one squad and have to make sure you follow the 1" rule for other squads.

I guess the other contention is even if this is true, does it really mean you have to follow the 1" rule...but that seems pretty clear to me. You can't just fall into units you haven't declared a charge against, and you can't declare a charge against anyone except the squad you declared the charge against, as in the last quote, which is the last sentence under "move charging units" on page 37

the initial discussion of declaring assaults, assumes you are only declaring an assault on one unit. That is why it is said that if you shoot, you can only declare against the unit you shot at; because the entire concept of charging two units has not even been introduced yet.

In paragraph 5 of that page (p36) it introduces the fact that you can declare a charge on multiple units. They expand by saying if you shot, and declare multiple assaults, you must start the assault by contacting the unit you shot at. This specific rule overrides the general rule listed above.

the start of page 37 says you now move into contact with those units you have declared charges against.

Nowhere does it say you can move into contact with a unit have not declared a charge upon.



So, you can declare multiple charges, even if you shoot. But you can only charge units you have declared against, and if you shot at a unit, that unit has to be your primary target.

what? I just quoted where it says they can't contact an enemy model they haven't declared a charge upon - last sentence of page 37

"In all cases, models may not move through friendly or enemy models and may not pass through gaps narrower than their base diameter. You may not move models within 1" of enemy models from any unit they are not charging"

This could just be to reemphasize the fact that you need to stay 1" away from things you don't want to charge (like trying to charge a squad next to another squad you definitely don't want anything to do with) but that doesn't change the fact that it specifically applies to situations where you haven't declared the charge on a unit. You either declare that you're charging (or trying to charge) them or you stay 1" away.


I agree that the sentence "A unit that fired in the shooting phase of the current turn may only declare a charge against the unit it shot at" comes before any mention of multiple charges. That doesn't mean that this rule is completely invalidated. If that were the case there would be no reason for this sentence at all. Of course, maybe there IS no reason for the sentence, knowing GW. But that doesn't change the fact that it is there, and pretty straightforward/clearly worded.

tegeus-Cromis: first i am at work so no BGB for me to try and quote... sorry should have said IIRC..
also that is just how we interpret the rules where my gaming group plays...

NOW as an explanation, when you charge a squad the rules are clear that you have to engage as many unengaged models as you can. if only 5 models can get into B2B (for whatever reason) but you have 10 harles, the other 5 can assault squad B that is next to squad A as long as you arent out of cohesion.

just how we play it....

The multiple assult rule even has a special occation for times when you have shot at something first , so that obviously is something that overrides the first rule isnt it?

A specific rule for a situation always overrules a general one, othervise it would always be contradictions.

I agree with your first statement. (lambodomy)

I agree that the sentence "A unit that fired in the shooting phase of the current turn may only declare a charge against the unit it shot at" comes before any mention of multiple charges. That doesn't mean that this rule is completely invalidated. If that were the case there would be no reason for this sentence at all. Of course, maybe there IS no reason for the sentence, knowing GW. But that doesn't change the fact that it is there, and pretty straightforward/clearly worded.

Of course it is still valid; when it applies. It applies when you are only declaring a charge against one unit. then it has to be the unit you shot at. It makes perfect sense when it was stated, since multi charges had not been introduced yet.
Once they are introduced, it is explained that if you shoot, and want to multi charge, you must first contact the shot-at unit.

Like many rules, it is a general rule, in this case it is overruled when you want to charge more than one unit. When the rule kicks in that you can do it, but must charge the target unit first.
Or else, why is that sentence there...??

NOW as an explanation, when you charge a squad the rules are clear that you have to engage as many unengaged models as you can. if only 5 models can get into B2B (for whatever reason) but you have 10 harles, the other 5 can assault squad B that is next to squad A as long as you arent out of cohesion

Sort of... yes they must all get into base if they can, but there is nothing that says it has to be with the primary target.

You have 10 harlis, you declare on Unit A, B and C. Since A is closest, you have to go their first. Then you must get into base if you can, and you must stay in coherence... but you can hit any of the 3 units.

coredump wrote:

NOW as an explanation, when you charge a squad the rules are clear that you have to engage as many unengaged models as you can. if only 5 models can get into B2B (for whatever reason) but you have 10 harles, the other 5 can assault squad B that is next to squad A as long as you arent out of cohesion

Sort of... yes they must all get into base if they can, but there is nothing that says it has to be with the primary target.

You have 10 harlis, you declare on Unit A, B and C. Since A is closest, you have to go their first. Then you must get into base if you can, and you must stay in coherence... but you can hit any of the 3 units.

Not really, the rules also state that you have to move the closest unengaged model to the closest unengaged enemy by the closest route, wich will limit you alot more.

ok, I think I get the counter argument. it's based on the sentence

If the unit fired in the Shooting phase it must start it's charge by engaging the unit it shot at

This makes my argument weaker, but I don't think it invalidates it, it just make the intention more vague. A statement like

A unit that fired in the shooting phase of the current turn may only declare a charge against the unit it shot at

Is a pretty strong, absolute statement. The book seems to be pretty clear what charging entails, and that you can't just rub up against a unit you haven't declared a charge against (during the initial assault). It may not be as clear about "declared charges" though.

I guess there are multiple ways to view it:

1.) The statement about declaring charges against only the unit it shot at just means you can only charge it. This would imply that anyone you're charging has to have a charge declared against it. This may not be true, I can't find something that specifies the difference between "charging" and "declared charging"

2.) The statement about declaring charges against only the unit it shot at may just mean you have to START with that unit (only unit with a DECLARED charge). In the "move charging unts" section then, it says that you have to move models into contact with the next available model in the unit being charged (presumably the DECLARED charge). Once you run out of open models in the declared group, it gets sticky - the rules say you have to start doubling up, but if you assume you're allowed to charge things you haven't declared against, this is where you'd start touching other units nearby. The 1" rule wouldn't matter because you intend to charge them, even if you can't declare it.

3.) the statement about declaring charges against only the unit it shot is completely meaningless and shouldn't be in the book.

4.) something else, a version of #2 where you're just allowed to charge willy nilly no matter who or what you shot, so long as you stay in coherency and start somewhere.

Kallbrand wrote:Not really, the rules also state that you have to move the closest unengaged model to the closest unengaged enemy by the closest route, wich will limit you alot more.

Only for the first model.



Here's a breakdown of the relevant rules:

1) A unit that shot can only declare a charge against the unit it shot at. (page 36, Shooting and Assaulting, first sentence)

2) A unit that shot in the shooting phase must begin its assault by charging the unit it shot at. (page 36, Shooting and Assaulting, 2nd paragraph)

3) A unit can charge on multiple units (page 36, Shooting and Assaulting, 2nd paragraph)

a) provided that each model can be moved into assault while staying in coherency with a model from their own unit that has already moved into combat (page 37, first bullet)

b) provided that each model moves into contact with an unengaged enemy model if at all possible. (page 37, second bullet)

c) provided that each model does not move within 1" of a model from a unit that model is not charging (page 37, last paragraph)


While it seems obvious (to me at least) that point 2 is probably supposed to over-ride the restriction imposed by point 1, it falls short of actually doing so. It creates an ambiguity, by being a completely superfluous rule (if the unit can only assault the enemy that it fired at, there is no need to point out that it must start it's assault by engaging that unit) but does not specifically allow the unit to assault an enemy other than the one that they fired upon.

So, as I read it, by RAW a unit that shot in the shooting phase can not actually assault multiple units... but they were probably intended to be able to do so. .. for what that's worth.


At the end of the day, I'm happy to play it either way, as the restrictions imposed on the movement of a charging unit mean that you would need a very specific unit placement in order for it to actually happen legally... and so a legal multiple charge will rarely happen anyway.

Looking at a rule as a single sentence is taking it out of context.

There is a paragraph that discusses being able to charge multiple units. In that paragraph, it says you must charge the 'primary' unit first. In that paragraph, it says if you shoot, you must charge that unit first.

You have to look at the rules in the context in which they were written

Ok, thats true, we can't just pick a rule and harp on it with no context...but I think some pretty decent breakdowns of what all the rules read together end up causing have been made here. You seem to just want to ignore either the rule that says you can only declare a charge against the unit you shot at, and/or the rule that says you have to stay an inch away from any units you're not charging. Which...is fine I guess, but it's not really any better.

Anyway, it doesn't matter. I'm not trying to convince you that I'm even right, just that it's not clear. Which you don't seem to believe, but I still don't see the justification for an assumption that you can just ignore the first sentence because they haven't talked about multi-charges yet. You specifically said:

Nowhere does it say you can move into contact with a unit have not declared a charge upon.

So you cannot charge things you haven't declared a charge upon, per this. Why wouldn't this tie directly in with:

A unit that fired in the Shooting phase of the current turn may only declare a charge against the unit it shot at."

Did you mean to say nowhere does it say you CANT move into contact with a unit you have not declared a charge upon? That doesn't seem right, since there's the specific 1" rule.

Anyway, I don't see why you would just basically ignore the "A unit that fired in the Shooting phase of the current turn may only declare a charge against the unit it shot at." rule because multiple charges are described after it. This isn't taking it out of context, it's reading the rules as written. If anything you're taking the multiple charge description out of the context of the previous, clearly stated rule.

That being said...looking at the leaked 5th edition codex, I don't see any of these problems, and it seems likely that what they wanted (or at least want now) is multiple charges in all cases.

This has to be in a faq or a YMTC - Adepticon maybe?

coredump wrote:In that paragraph, it says you must charge the 'primary' unit first.

...but stops short of actually stating that you can charge other units. It simply says that you must begin the assault by charging the unit at which you shot.

It doesn't actually say that they can charge multiple units, and a previous restriction specifically prevents them from doing so.

No. a previous restriction states they must charge the unit shot at. It does not state that no other units can be part of that charge as well. Simply stating that the shooting target must be DECLARED as the charge target. Then read on. You can charge multiple units.

Declare the unit shot at as the target.
Charge multiple units.

The charging multiple units section right after the section quoted never mentions declaration of multiple targets, only that multiple targets of a charge are fine.

what did I miss this time? I only read, I did not infer. . .


rarrr

kirsanth wrote:No. a previous restriction states they must charge the unit shot at. It does not state that no other units can be part of that charge as well.

"A unit that fired in the Shooting phase of the current turn may only declare a charge against the unit it shot at."


Certainly sounds to me like it's saying that the unit it shot at is the only unit that the shooter can declare a charge against.

Simply stating that the shooting target must be DECLARED as the charge target.

It's not saying that the shooting target must be declared as the charge target.
It's saying that only the shooting target can be declared as the charge target.

The charging multiple units section right after the section quoted never mentions declaration of multiple targets, only that multiple targets of a charge are fine.

Sure, but the section that comes after that, which covers how to move your chargers, restricts your charging models to being moved into combat with the units they have declared a charge against.

So if you only declare a charge against the unit at which you shot, then you can not charge another unit, because you can only charge a unit that you have declared a charge against.

You guys really should read the main rulebook FAQ, the first answer in the assault phase section answers this question.

I'll quote it for you. This is off the US website. It's been this way a long, long, long time now.

"ASSAULTS
Q. When assaulting multiple units, do you have to
completely engage the primary target before moving on
to secondary targets, or do you just need to engage the
primary target with at least one model before moving on
to the secondary target?
A. Only the first charging model must engage the
primary target, the other charging models must follow
the rules for assaulting, which do not say anything about
primary or secondary targets. This means they can
engage the secondary target as long as they don’t break
the rules for moving chargers."

Cheers to that.

Honestly that is pretty brilliant.

I do not see it as correct, but then I do not see my reading that way either.

The multiple charge rules remind me of the multiple opponents rules. I.E. They do not exist other than as add ons.

With the idea that multiple charges not requireing multiple declarations (that is what the books say) I cannot read the rules like you quote them. That said, I do not think your reading is incorrect, simply irrelivant in most situations you mentions. Certainly sounds to me like it's saying that the unit it shot at is the only unit that the shooter can declare a charge against.

"Certainly sounds to me like it's saying that the unit it shot at is the only unit that the shooter can declare a charge against. "

I was quoting. and indeed the declaration of charge is what I was refereing to and using as a basis of the rest of the quotes from the rules. Moving into charges you "declare" are rather different that moving into multiple target charges, at least in my book it is like using an IC.

Charging a unit you did not shoot at (if you shot) is impossible in the (current) rules unless the unit shot is close enough to invlove another unit in CC with coherency issues.


??

Stelek wrote:You guys really should read the main rulebook FAQ, the first answer in the assault phase section answers this question.

I'll quote it for you. This is off the US website. It's been this way a long, long, long time now.

Hmm, my browser seems to be cutting out the part where that FAQ answer refers to a unit that has shot, or to the manner in which charges are declared...

kirsanth wrote:With the idea that multiple charges not requireing multiple declarations (that is what the books say)

Sorry, I just pointed out the section a minute ago that states that you do require multiple declarations.