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Sometimes you need to put up or shut up. So I'm posting my list. Its a hybrid list, but still very mobile. As it stands its 1842 points. Let me know what you all think are the biggest weaknessess. I personally can think of two big ones.


Shas'o 122
Fusion
Plasma
Hardwired Multi-tracker
Vectored Retro Thrusters

Crisis Suit 77
Team Leader
Missile Pod
Plasma
Hardwired Multi-Tracker
Targeting array

Crisis Suit 77
Team Leader
Missile Pod
Plasma
Hardwired Multi-Tracker
Targeting array

Stealth x6 180

Firewarriors x12 240
Devil Fish
Targeting Array
Multi-tracker
SMS System
Decoy Launchers

Firewarriors x10 220
Devil Fish
Targeting Array
Multi-tracker
SMS System
Decoy Launchers

Pathfinders x8 236
Shas'ui
Devil Fish
Targeting Array
Multi-tracker
SMS System
Decoy Launchers
Seeker Missile

Pirahna 85
Fusion Blaster
Seeker Missile x2

Pirahna 85
Fusion Blaster
Seeker Missile x2

Hammerhead 180
Railgun
SMS System
Decoy Launcher
Target Lock
Multi-Tracker

Hammerhead 145
Ion Cannon
SMS System
Decoy Launcher
Target Lock
Multi-Tracker

Broadsides x2 195
Team Leader
Advanced Stabilizer system x2
Hardwired Drone Controller
Shield Drones x2
SMS Secondary Systems

Fusion guns on crisis suits.

Devilfish.

Pathfinders.

Broadsides take 1 casualty and run.

Hammerheads should use railguns but I see why you brought the Ion cannon.

Stealth suits don't do much to alot of armies.

What happens if you don't go first, and lose your pathfinders? While I like the concept of pathfinders, I've basically given up on them as a markerlight source. Since they can't move/shoot, they have to expose themselves to something before they can shoot (unless you get first turn and scout your way within 36". So...you either have to zip them around, drop them off somewhere and then hope they get ignored before they get to shoot, or you put them where they can see something at the beginning and hope they don't get shot. It doesn't take much to kill them.

So, if your pathfinders don't get to shoot (I realize they should only need to shoot once and you'll get close to the 4 markerlight hit you need) then the piranha's seeker missiles don't get to be used. Not the end of the world, but not what you want to happen.

You're paying 15 points each for those Crisis suits to have BS4 instead of BS3. Not sure it is worth it, but maybe with so little plasma you need to do it.

What are the Vectored Retro Thrusters for? I've played around with them but haven't been impressed. Too many power fists. It is nice to be able to escape but it never seems worth the points, since you're paying for it and the premium for getting a Shas'o instead of an 'el

Making the Shas'o a Shas'el, dropping the seeker missiles, and making the crisis suits BS3 would net you...95 points. Not quite enough for a team of Deathrains but close. Or you could use some to make the Ionhead a Railhead

Admittedly, I don't dislike any of these things - I just feel that with the pathfinders unlikely to be able to do what they need to do, some other things in the list become less optimal too.

6 man stealth squad feels big to me - you have a lot of str5 ap5 shots elsewhere, and the stealth squad is dead meat in any assault, so it may as well stay small, harrass and flank light targets and try to score at the end.

Anyway other than the pathfinders being a big "shoot me!" target I don't see any other things that are real problems. Every other unit is fine and effective. And maybe I just don't know how to use pathfinders, sometimes they work fine but 8 weak dudes with heavy weapons and LD 8 don't seem to get to shoot much. Maybe give them two gun or shield drones and a bonding knife to keep them around, but then that just makes them more expensive.

But what happens when they do go first?

I have a very aggressive play style with my Tau. I think that it throws a lot of people off initially. Also I'm not stupid. Pathfinders sitting in 4+ cover is almost mandatory. Pathfinders sitting the full 30" back is also mandatory. Pathfinders using their scout move to get the distance and use terrain to block out most of the enemies long range firepower is perferable. I've found that the biggest threat to pathfinders is actually vehicle squadrons. Things that can move 12" and still shoot 24+" guns. Most infantry is not a first turn problem and even most assualt type weapons in infantry is not a real first turn threat. Its the fast attack vehicles and bikes that are the big worry.

Also this very much is an take all comers list. Against orks (a new threat in the tourny scene) 22 firewarrior gun line being lead by pathfinders is a great way to put the hurt on, while 5 BS4 sms system put the smack down on lootas or trukks. Stealths and crisis suits go stormboy hunting. The broadsides take out battlewagons and the hammerheads just have a field day.

Against nids anything thats not a big bug gets S5 shots and the big guys get nailed with railguns, fusion, plasma, missles and everything else.

Against biker eldar, JSJ bikes don't like SMS systems at all.

Against Marines... well, who knows what will show up with the many possibilites. Tigerious really ruins my day.

I'm not so much as defending the list, but I think its important when judging it how I tend to play it. You might see something totally different, which is good.

I'm curious what the two big problems are with the list that you see, and why you're willing to accept them.

I agree with most of the above comments, although I think stealth teams are pretty handy for Tau. The biggest problem I see is that your AT firepower is mostly concentrated in 1 unit. If I were an enemy (say, guard) with significant armor assets, I'd focus all my fire on the broadsides and then run amok with my tanks.

The biggest problems is low leadership compounded by the easy way other armies have to make it even lower and take advantage of it. And fairly low model count at 55 models.

AT is surprisingly located through out the list and more importantly around the table. Broadsides obviously, Deepstriking Shas'o, pirahnas, Two independant BS 4 crisis suits, both hammerheads (granted ions don't do much against AV13, but 60" range plus 12 move equals side armor shots against AV12, 11. 5 S8 Seekers.

Also you don't have to kill the tank every time you hit it. Each turn your preditor, falcon, Russ, exorsist, etc. isn't shooting is a turn I've won. Yeah, you have to kill them eventually and hopefully before they kill you. But I feel that there are enough ways of keeping the pressure on them from turn 1 that the other guy suddenly has to start thinking defense instead of offense. And against Tau, that could easily be your downfall.

Well, low leadership is a problem of pretty much all tau armies, unless you just keep everything in a vehicle and run around. There are ways around it, but for the most part they aren't worth the points.

Anyway, aggressive or not I just don't see the value of the pathfinders for the points. You get to shoot with them first assuming your opponent doesn't hide the things they want to shoot or stand them more than 36" from the cover you're in and you go first. Yes, mobile vehicles are the biggest threat to them but I would assume most things you want to mark have as much range as you do, and you have to stand still to shoot them, so you have no way to maneuver for a shot or hide once you've committed to trying to get a shot.

I'm not saying it's impossible, just difficult and depends on your opponent. Maybe, if your piranhas and devilish are barreling down on them your opponent will pick them over the pathfinders as targets, but I doubt it, it's too tempting and easy to put 3 or 4 casualties on them even if they're in cover for most armies. I just feel that outside of going first, they are extremely vulnerable, as they basically have to expose themselves to fire before they can shoot. Maybe you'll be able to limit that exposure and still get the shot you want (or at least a decent one) but there are a lot of other tau units that get to do what they do well regardless of the situation and don't cost 236 points.

As for anti-tank, I think we really only need to worry about armor 13+... which leaves you with 5 units that can really do anything, 6 if you count the pathfinders as who is shooting the seekers, and three of them require pretty extreme close range. This is someplace where a second railhead instead of the ionhead would really come in handy. I like the ion cannon, but I still pretty much always take the railgun - the ion cannon can be duplicated or approximated elsewhere with things like rail rifles or firekinves, but the railgun (especially the hammerheads dual-use one) can only be gotten one place.

Devilfish are really fragile. 120 point devilfish are really fragile and expensive and don't do anything that special (120 points for 4 BS4 str 5 shots, 7 if you expose yourself to fire? Your vehicles can be shaken too so talking about shaking the enemy to protect yourself goes both ways)

Lootas are range 48 but of course suffer some of the same problems the pathfinders do with exposure to fire, they can just stand further away and tend to have better leadership. Having played almost this exact list against orks for a long time SMS aren't that effective against trukks and buggies (4 shots, 8/3 hits, 8/18 glances 8/18 penetrates)...crisis suits do that job way better (a 53 point deathrain - 2 shots, 16/9 hits, 16/54 glances 8/9 penetrates is significantly better for much cheaper and easier to hide, and effective against armor 11 and 12).

SMS are about as effective as it gets against bike eldar or other hidey units. Can't argue there. especially since the other effective counter, get in their face and assault them, is not really available to tau.

Firewarriors are effective against orks as a gunline. Pathfinders again have to live but definitely help - but you can get markerlights elsewhere, such as sniper drones or in the FW squads. You can get a LOT of kroot for the points you spent on the firewarriors, and they're pretty effective shooting against orks too. Don't benefit from the Pathfinders though, but of course they do some other things. I guess it depends on the amount of terrain you tend to see in tourneys if they're going to be more effective.

Anyway, I'm sure this list will be effective for you against a lot of armies, but I don't feel that it is optimal because of the pathfinder's weaknesses. The rest of the army is just personal preference I'd say. And pathfinders are just borderline, I don't think they're specifically god-awful, just not effective in every game and that isn't something you really want in a tourney take-all-comers list I think. Maybe it's unavoidable to have units that aren't going to help much or get blown away early sometimes.

lambadomy wrote:Well, low leadership is a problem of pretty much all tau armies, unless you just keep everything in a vehicle and run around. There are ways around it, but for the most part they aren't worth the points.

Anyway, aggressive or not I just don't see the value of the pathfinders for the points. You get to shoot with them first assuming your opponent doesn't hide the things they want to shoot or stand them more than 36" from the cover you're in and you go first. Yes, mobile vehicles are the biggest threat to them but I would assume most things you want to mark have as much range as you do, and you have to stand still to shoot them, so you have no way to maneuver for a shot or hide once you've committed to trying to get a shot.

Hmm... Maybe this will help. I don't see the pathfinders and their devilfish as one unit. I see them as a 106 point unit of 8 guys with heavy weapons and a 120 point tank that shoots 7 S5 shots at a BS 4.

Pathfinders are simply the best way to get the most markerlights. Lets face it, while better than the old codex, a single marker light hit is pretty worthless. A small bump in BS is pathetic when compared to a two point bump in BS and -1 cover save. Sniper drones, you only get 1 for 80 or 2 for 160. Just as static, just as easy to kill (once in close range). Firewarrior teams is a minimum 100 points for 1. Just as static, just as easy to kill. If you going to use Markerlights, Pathfinders are easily the most durable and cost effective way of getting them. 8 Pathfinders with Shas'ui upgrade is 106 points.

Now lets look at the points spent on the devilfish, 120 points. Move and shoot 7 S5 shots at 18" 4 S5 shots at 24 (that don't need LOS). Where else can I get that sort of firepower. 10 firewarriors is 120 points, thats three extra shots, but at a lower BS. Also lower range if moved, granted longer range if not moving (but static). However the lowly lasgun can kill a firewarrior. It takes dedicated AT firepower to kill a devilfish. Which do you have more of in your armies. Bolters or Autocannons?
You can easily get the shots with a stealth team, but again, they die to everything and in fact have a shorter range. The same can be said for crisis suits with burst cannons. Vespid... Well, lets not go there.

I very much consider the devilfish a seperate part of the army. It performs its own roll to play and has little to do with the pathfinders. Its mission objectives that I assign it rarely have anything to do with the pathfinders mission objectives. I also see the devilfish as a good use of points for what you get. You get something that puts out a decent amount of mobile firepower, has the advantages and disadvantages that tanks have over infantry. Adds another tank to my list which is good because as we all know, 40K works best with 2-3 of the same thing on the table than alone. So yeah, the pathfinder devilfish would be a sitting duck and easy to take out if it wasn't for the other two.

Anyway, thats my thoughts on pathfinders and the points spent. On a purely personal note I'm a tread head. I want tanks in my army. If there were no tanks, I'd play Fantasy. Much better rule set.

lambadomy wrote:Maybe it's unavoidable to have units that aren't going to help much or get blown away early sometimes.

Tell me about it. I had a 140ish point Chaos Liutenant on bike in my Emperor's Children army that NEVER lived past turn 3. Never. The sad part is that he usually died by crashing into dangerious terrain or from plasma overheat. That sucker had a 2+ armor save too. His roll in life was just to die.

Was there any criticism so far that you have accepted?

Are you willing to make any changes at all to the list?

I don't like the fusion gun or the thrusters on the shaso

I don't really see the need for 6 stealth suits in a list with 2x fish of fury.

And I don't like army list posts where the poster refutes all constructive critique on his list. Sorry to be so harsh, but this isn't the show-and-tell section.

I haven't said anything about the stealths... they can go, if I can find a good replacement for them.

Nor have I said anything about the Shas'o and its configuration.

On that note however, now two people have said to drop fusion guns and vectored jets. But no one has said why, or what to replace them with. I have a hard time accepting droping stuff on faith. Just because so and so said so is not good enough. You have to say WHY you would change something before I'll even consider it.

But Pathfinders stay. I see too many posted lists where the immediate reaction is dump the pathfinders. But yet, I see so many other battle reports where they did well, or at the very least held there own that I really wonder where the hate for them comes from. Also at the moment its just me and Lambatomy talking about pathfinders. No one has really said anything else. As for Steleks comments the stealth issue and fusion issue has been echoed by others nor have I made any attempt to defend those aspects of the list. The broadside running is an issue, but one that you just have to live with, at 80 points each getting one more can easily happen if the list gets bumped up to 2000 points, but at this current point level that would mean dropping a pirahna, and well two pirahnas is much more survivable than one. Devilfish are not a bad unit. If they were, Mech Tau wouldn't be such an issue.

I agree that pathfinders are the cheapest way to get a bunch of markerlights

I agree that one tank is no tank - I often play with three hammerheads (though I've cut down to normally using two recently)

I understand the idea of considering the devilfish to be a seperate weapons platform. I don't really like it though so that does color my perception of the value of the pathfinders, since you're forced to take it.

I don't think you can just look at the other units and say "that's 80 points for a markerlight, or thats 85 points for a markerlight" since you're paying for more than just the markerlight. For example, if you:

turned the two FW squads into 4 min sized FW squads with markerlights - 80 points each (or 85 if they take a target lock) 320

turned the ion head into two sniper drone teams - 160

You'd end up with 6 markerlights, 6 str 6 ap3 bs3 shots to replace the 3 str 7 ap3 shots (with more survivability early game). You end up with about the same amount of pulse fire (you have two more firewarriors. This costs 480 points. The FW squads, pathfinders and ion head you have now cost 481. Yes, you have two less markerlights, but now they're spread out so your opponent can't kill them all by looking at one unit angrily. And you get to keep all three devilfish. And you get LD 8 in all those FW squads.

I'm not saying this is optimal (you'd end up with one railhead this way, so I'd end up trading the broadsides for another railhead...and then I'm just turining your list into my list which is dumb and not helpful) I'm just saying that the cost of markerlights is not just the cost of the unit, when you can cram them into things you already buy or things that can replace other things and be similarly effective. I think this method makes the markerlights much more effective, even with two less, for the reasons I stated before about the difficulty of keeping pathfinders alive while still getting to shoot.

One solution to the pathfinder problem that I've tried before is giving them two gun drones, and/or sticking something like an etheral in their unit or putting shadowsun on the board, both of which deal with leadership issues pretty well, but are otherwise probably a waste of points - I don't actually recommend them for a serious tournament army, but who knows. Too bad the command and control node is just for target priority tests. But making them have to take 3 casualties instead of two to take a test (and making them not lose markerlights with the first two casualties) seems worth the 20 points if you're going to take the pathfinders.

Well, I haven't ever lost to a Mech Tau list.

With any of my lists.

I do lose games, ya know. But Mech Tau are a joke if you know how to beat them.

Stun, wait, penetrate, kill. Rinse and repeat.

If you like, I can get you a game versus my Tau and see what you think. My Tau list is very strong. If I could get away with having zero fire warrior units I would, and it'd be that much better as a result.

Or I can play a different army, and play against mech tau. Don't matter to me. Mech tau are way way down on my threat list to be perfectly honest.

But... but... your 8 (insert name of big gun here) can drop 3 monoliths a turn. Of course you win most of your games.

I know what type of lists you run. They are all mathematically powerful and even play that way on the table to boot. And from what others have said, your much better than average general as well. Thus strong competition. However, I just don't find your lists fun to play in the least. The only one that looked even remotely interesting to me was your drop pod list with apothicaries.

Personally, I think the list would be stronger if the second Hammerhead was upgraded to a RailHeadm and the Broadsides dropped in favor of Sniper Drone teams.

But that's just me.

stjohn70 wrote:Personally, I think the list would be stronger if the second Hammerhead was upgraded to a RailHeadm and the Broadsides dropped in favor of Sniper Drone teams.

But that's just me.

You would go to battle with only two railguns? That seems gutsy. I've like the idea of sniper drones. And I do not feel that they are over priced at all when used in a set of two or more.

Two mobile railguns isn't significantly worse than one mobile one and two static ones. They're also more flexible. And you said yourself you have a lot of other anti-tank in the army in the form of fusion. Plus, the amount of strength 7 you can put into a tau army in the form of missile pods can help against armor 13 in a pinch (a squad of 3 deathrains can get something like .9 glances a turn against armor 13...not good, but not terrible if necessary).

Hehe everyone hated my apothecary drop army, so I stopped playing it for like a year.

{Its a hybrid list, but still very mobile.}

Just a quick question... how is this hybrid? I see mech. 7 skimmers?

You have too few crisis suits to make it work and a lot of people swear by 120pt transports aka warfish but it's still a 120pt non scoring unit.

Hybrid means static / mobile combo. I have some mech, but two units of static as well. To be true hybrid I should probably have a few units of Kroot to increase the ground pounder aspect of it.

Anyway, some more thoughts (if only to make Shep happy). If I drop the stealths. That gives me 180 points.

I could use those points to get:
2 firewarriors to flesh out the one squad thats short
2 Gundrones to add bodies to the pathfinder squad.
1 Broadsides to make the unit a full 3 thus eliminating the run away early bit (if I understand correctly the rules for mixed units with multiple wounds)
1 Monat Deathrain (TL missile, Target array)

I could also reconfig the Shas'o as

Shas'0
Missilepod
Cylindric Ion Blaster
Multi-tracker

That saves me 15 points as I don't need the retro jets as this guy isn't nearly as close to the enemy. I could then use those points to get target arrays for my pirahnas to allow them to hit more often. Then use the left over 12 points for blacksun filters or some such stuff.

Why do you need a shas'o instead of a shas'el? I'm not sure what the extra wound and leadership point do for you for the 15 points extra (shas'el with CIB, Missile, TA, and HWMT is 92).

The extra wound has saved me 61 points in VPs before. The extra WS is big if you get assaulted. The LD doesn't matter so much. I guess its really not all that big of a deal. What else can you get for 15 points without just buying more wargear?

Well, with your stealth-suit dropping plan, you're left with 17 points, plus the 15 you got reconfiguring your shas'o. So with 15 more, plus the 8 you have since your total was only 1842, I'd get another Deathrain and make them a pair. This would use up the points you had earmarked for Targeting Arrays on your piranhas though. And I liked that idea (didn't notice you didn't have them before).

And yes, the third broadside will keep them from running after the first casualty.

Here is the list that i ran this past weekend at a local RTT that I ended up winning. It's 2k but you can change some wargear and drop a piranha to get it to 1850.
4 Railguns
8 plasma shots
9 Markerlights

It got 60/60 battle points

HQ
Shas'el - 100pt
PR, CIB, TA, MT
2xVRE - 156pt
PR, BC, TA, MT

Shas'el - 87pt
PR, MP, MT

TROOPS
10x FW - 100pt
1x Devilfish - 100pt
FL, MT

10x Kroot - 70pt
10x Kroot - 70pt

ELITES
2x Crisis -124pt
PR, MP, MT
2x Crisis -124pt
PR, MP, MT

3x Stealth - 170pt
TLdr, HWDC, 2x MD, ML, BK

FAST
1x Piranha - 80pt
FB, TA, SM
1x Piranha - 80pt
FB, TA, SM

6x Pathfinder - 72pt
1x Devilfish - 100pt
FL, MT

HEAVY
1x Railhead - 180pt
RG, SMS, MT, TL, DL

1x Railhead - 180pt
RG, SMS, MT, TL, DL

2x BASS - 205pt
ASS, TLdr, HWDC, 2x SD, TL, BK