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Hi,

If a unit has the USR "Hit and Run" does it have to have been involved in a combat to utilise it.

The rule reads:

"Models with this ability may choose to leave close combat. Declare this at the end of the Close Combat phase. The unit using the Hit & Run ability must be involved in a combat, and will immediately move 3D6" in a straigt line in any direction, ignoring the units they are locked with."

Can a unit with the H&R USR use that in a turn where it has not been involved in a combat but as the result of an outcome move (Sweeping Advance or Consolidation) an enemy unit has contacted them. Or does the unit with H&R USR have to fight at least one round before it can hit and run.

Pg 44 of the BGB says:

The (Consolidation) move may be used to contact enemy units and lock them in combat, but the consolidating unit must maintain coherency and does not count as charging when combat is worked out next turn.

So can a unit H&R without having fought a combat?

Cheers

Pete

It really comes down to how you define 'involved'... since the rules don't bother to.

You could argue that a unit locked in combat is 'involved' in combat.

You could argue that in order to be 'involved' the unit actually has to have done something.

RAW just doesn't answer this one.


I would go with no, it doesn't work... but that's a personal preference only.




As an aside:

PLC wrote: but as the result of an outcome move (Sweeping Advance or Consolidation)

Sweeping Advance doesn't actually involve movement.

I think I would lean 'yes' via RAI, Just because hit and run units should have the ability to manouver freely in their own turn.

I'm too tired to think of what the RAW argument would be.

PLC wrote:
Can a unit with the H&R USR use that in a turn where it has not been involved in a combat but as the result of an outcome move (Sweeping Advance or Consolidation) an enemy unit has contacted them. Or does the unit with H&R USR have to fight at least one round before it can hit and run.

My own understanding of how this works (haven't got my rulebook with me to quote pages, sorry) is that the the H&R move is declared after all the casulties are removed, but before the rolls for losing combat or consolidation are made.

As the consolidation takes place at the end of the assualt phase any unit that is assualted using consolidation would not be eligable for the H&R move until a round of combat is made in the next player turn.

This is my understanding from when I last read my rulebook so if it is wrong (which I'm sure it isn't)then I'll be re-reading it tonight to swot up. lol

The answer is that the Hit & Run rules are badly-written. Saying that it happens at “the end of the close combat phase” doesn’t tell us what happens when there are multiple assaults, doesn’t tell us which step of the phase it happens in, and doesn’t even get the name of the darn phase right (it’s actually the Assault Phase).

Just going from the RAW, it’s tough to tell for sure, but if you interpret “the end of the close combat phase” as meaning that it happens after everything else, theoretically you could wipe out one unit, make a d6” consolidate (for the massacre) into another unit, then Hit & Run. That said, it doesn’t seem to make much sense, and a lot of folks instead play that H&R happens right after step 5 of the Assault phase, and thus you are not eligible to do it after consolidating into a new unit. Adepticon/the Independent National FAQ has ruled this way- see page 24 of the below:

http://www.adepticon.org/files/INAT_FAQ.pdf

aren't the sweeping advances consolidation moves ALSO made at the end of the Close Combat Phase?

Another example might be two combats are occurring 3" from each other (marines and eldar) The marines win one and the eldar win one. The marine rolls a 4" consolidation while the eldar rolls a 2". Can the marine "catch" the eldar before they make their 2" move? I don't think they could as the moves happen at the same time.

By the same logic I would argue the same thing for Hit and Run. Hit and Run can't be used in the case you've described because it had to occur at the same time as the movement of the consolidation, but in order to make it's ability valid it needed to be involved and was actually just "locked".

Another question we had come up is if two units want to use Hit and Run, say Seraphim fight Warp Spiders, can both us it? If so, who goes first?

I think we just rolled d6 + Initiative on that one, since we figured it probably was no where in the rules, but does anyone have some clever insight into that?

The only thing I could use to argue RAW would be that the USR Hit & run states that the unit must be involved in a combat, will imediatelly move 3D6 away "ignoring the units they are locked with."

While "involved in a combat" is not defined being "locked" is.

Thus I would say to be allowed to H&R the unit would have to be locked.

If you sweep or consolidate then you are not locked (tho consolidation may leave you locked again).

Moreover the rule originated from chaos raptors as far as I know, in the old codex they had this special rule and it read:
Hit and Run: At the end of a round of close combat the Raptors may choose to break off if they and atleast some of their close combat opponents do not have to fall back."

Now this is not binding rules in any way but may show the intent of the USR.

As for two H&R units...
Fun, but I cant see why they both should not be allowed to H&R.

To separate the two units I would simply have both secretly declare direction (each placing a scatter die under their hand should work perfectly). If both actually choose the same direction I would have both roll their distances. If that does not separate them ither then I would flip a coin and let the winner choose to stay the cource or alter the direction, if direction is kept then the looser of the coin toss would simply have to alter his direction enough to make the H&R move possible.

Paidinfull- Remember that Sweeping Advances and Consolidation moves have virtually nothing to do with one another and no resemblance since 4th edition came out in 2004.

As for whether Consolidate moves occur at the end of the assault phase, I think it’s probably worth checking the rulebook. My recollection is that they’re resolved at the end of that assault, but that multiple each assault is completely resolved before moving onto the next; hence the need for the clarification that models which move into contact with another unit which is already engaged but has not yet fought that turn are not considered engaged.

Wehrkind- I don’t believe there is any specific GW ruling on this one, but the Inat FAQ says both can, and the person whose turn it is chooses the order. They classify it a “clarification” as opposed to a “rules change”, so they must have been fairly confident in the rules support for it. I’d ask Yak if you want the full reasoning behind it.

http://www.adepticon.org/files/INAT_FAQ.pdf

Fester- You’re misremembering an important rule. The rules state that if you consolidate into another unit who’s fighting a close combat which hasn’t been resolved yet, the models in the consolidating unit are not considered “engaged” until the next turn.

This is very different from not being “locked”. If they’re locked, they’re in combat with that unit. Neither can move away, be shot at, etc. “Involved in a close combat” is basically a synonym for Locked. But because they’re not Engaged, neither side is eligible to throw attacks at one another or be removed as casualties in assault.

Mannahnin wrote:Fester- You’re misremembering an important rule. The rules state that if you consolidate into another unit who’s fighting a close combat which hasn’t been resolved yet, the models in the consolidating unit are not considered “engaged” until the next turn.

This is very different from not being “locked”. If they’re locked, they’re in combat with that unit. Neither can move away, be shot at, etc. “Involved in a close combat” is basically a synonym for Locked. But because they’re not Engaged, neither side is eligible to throw attacks at one another or be removed as casualties in assault.

Ok so if you consolidate into an enemy unit you are considered locked.

In my post I said consolidation may leave you locked again.

Odd, those two seem to match upp

My point in reality was that to be allowed to H&R it seems like you have to be locked in close combat (not engaged, locked) this meens in most cases if you get to sweep or consolidate then you will most probably not be locked, the only exeption being consolidating into a new enemy unit.

Edit, got a not wrong just below here, fixed it

I would, like you seem to feel, not consider being locked due to consolidating into a new enemy unit count as being "involved in a combat".

The problem remains, if "involved in a combat" meens to have atleast 1 model engaged then its easy to define how H&R works but the problem is that "involved in a combat" is not defined.

The way I would run it is like the old Raptor "Hit and Run" rule meening you can only H&R if atleast 1 model is engaged after pile in moves are made... but thats me.