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i was at the local store and we were talking about cheese etc. Now i had my 1k Sons with me and after i said my lord on bike gets a 2+ Inv save some in the group cry-ed cheese here is my list tell me what you all think i now dakka is know for there no bullsh1t answers.

HQ
lord on bike with death screamer ,melta bombs, mark of tzeentch, combi melta, and personal icon

Elites
5 terminators with 2 power fists , 1 combi melta, reaper autocannon, mark of tzeentch

Troops
1k sons squads of 9 , Sorcerer has bolt of change, unit has personal icon

Troops
1k Sons squad of 9 mounted in rhino Sorcerer has melta bombs and winds of chaos personal icon,Rhino has combi melta extra armor

Troops
chaos space marines squad of 10 with mark of chaos glory, with plasma gun and heavy bolter. Asp. champion has plasma pistol and power weapon, with melta bombs

Troops
9 summoned lesser daemons

Heavy
2x Obliterators

Heavy
2x Obliterators

Heavy
1 obliterators



its about 1748 now there is fluff for the obliterators looking for tech so there you have it
this army's at 1win-4draws-1lose.

Far from cheese. Come on, that record speaks for itself. Your buddies need to raise their cheese threshholds.

So, are you looking to improve it, or nerf it? I imagine the former would make your opponents cry cheese even more, while the latter would turn your army from mediocre to suck.

not cheesy at all. if you run two lash princes they'll probably explode.

also i think that due to a recent GW GT Q&A ruling tzneetch lords on bike dont get a +2 inv save when they turbo boost. could be wrong though.

i was wondering about that...
his normal invulnerable is a 4+ and his armor is a 3+
when he turbos his ARMOR save becomes invulnerable... I'm not sure it works like you think it does. I wouldn't play it that way at least, too iffy.

hmmm got to check out th Q&A . Now on page 25 in the dex say model gains +1 to there Inv. to a maximum of 2+???

Yeah, my thoughts are that his invulnerable is 5+ which is recorded in his stat line. Not any time he might be given another invulnerable. That's just me though... and I'm in no way "official"! hehe

Right, the Dex says their invulnerable save gets a +1

when a bike is turbo boosting, their armor save becomes invulnerable. The question is whether or not this is an invulnerable save, or just an armor save that is acting like an invulnerable save. The other question is "well, the mark already had it's effect, making the regular invulnerable save go from 5+ to 4+...why would it get it's effect again during the turbo boost?". Is the turbo boost invulnerable save considered the model/unit's invulnerable save, or just something that happens in turbo boosting that works like an invulnerable save, but not considered the models invulnerable save for purposes of the tzeentch mark? It's a grey area at best, it's been argued in here on another thread quite a bit. I don't really have an opinion, just more bad rules writing really. But if the FAQs say it doesn't work, then you may have trouble defending it elsewhere.

Outside of that, no, your army is not cheesy. Heck, in the last chaos codex there was a legit 2+ invulnerable bike lord that was actually useful in close combat, this is a poor substitute.

Thanks all for the imput time to tell the guys to suck it up back to war

You're taking a Lord with a Demon Weapon? And they're crying Cheese?

The only thing "cheesy" about your list is the Oblits mixed with 1k Sons. Other than that you've got some very non optimal unit choices (no Power Fist on your undivided squad, lesser demons, termy squad is sub-optimal, IMO).

It's a good list, not great, but good. It's probably murder on Marines or just MEQ's in general, but it's not cheese.

Oblits mixed with thousand sons is cheese?

Or in the real world, barely adequate is the term most people use.

yea the lesser daemon make this list automatically not cheesy. i just think they are absolutely worthless in the new codex. they do little more than draw a round of fire from some players. i wouldn't even shoot one squad at them, unless i had no other targets. sorry for the rant, but i just hate them new daemons as you could probably tell.