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Originally I wanted these guys to be Alpha Legion, I'm maybe thinking about Red Corsairs so that when I decide to paint a unit of noise marines they fit in a little better. I wanted to avoid cult marines, monsters, and vehicles. That's probably the kiss of death in 5th edition but let me know how this looks.


1000 points:

Sorceror
jump pack, doombolt, personal icon, meltabombs

2 x 10 marines
missile launcher, plasma, PF, icon

8 daemons

5 raptors
2 flamers, icon, PF

2 x 1 obliterator

999 points



1500 point version:

Sorceror
jump pack, warptime, meltabombs, icon

8 chosen
2 plasma guns, PF champ, icon

2 x 10 marines
lascannon, plasmagun, icon

2 x 8 daemons

8 raptors
2 flamers, PF, icon

2 x 6 havocs
3 missile launchers, icon

Undivided indeed still exists. In fact, until legion books come out. i would say undivided is the only game in town.

You have to be open to the idea that chaos cross-pollinates, they have squads from different legions showing up all the time, hitching a ride for a battle or two then leaving. If you are ok with just conceptualizing Huron Blackheart getting a visitation from 20 or so death guard plague marines, and agreeing to pay them some cost for their services in the next campaign of terror, or ahriman and a handful of exiled 1k sons crashing in your space hulk for a few years in exchange for some old magic books you found, then you can keep your theme and make a sufficiently powerful chaos army.

You won't have to have a huge focus on one particular cult. But you shouldn't self-restrict in a codex. That way lies madness. Or at least bitterness and frustration. Keep in mind that fluff-wise, raptors and obliterators are members of cults that supercede their pledge to their legion. they just aren't often depicted that way. There aren't "alpha legion obliterators" there are roaming band of once techmarines now techno-virus infected warriors that show up at a space hulk/chaos world, and offer archeo-tech trade for their services. Raptors are also members of a cult although they de-emphasized the cults importance in this edition of the codex. So, I'd recommend keeping your mind open to any and all options in a codex. A good fluff description transcends muddled theme.

As to the lists...

I don't hate regular marines, but the differrence between 15 marines with an icon and noise marines/plague marines/rubric marines is substantial. cult marines are just 'easier' and more forgiving. You can just take a unit of PMs and just hang em out somewhere, they can eat nearly every charge in the game that doesn't come in multiples, they are immune to small arms fire, and are immune to morale tricks of all varieties. Losing a combat by a couple wounds won't hand them a modified leadership test with no recourse to ATSKNF. However, a good player that knows that, can babysit and cover his marines enough to not get into loser combats, and not get shot to pieces. Rhinos help with the avoiding combat thing to an extent, they also help avoid the small arms fire issues. they are unusable until june however.

Sorcerer should just take the next step and go demon prince. I don't have experience with a sorcerer with a jump pack however, so you should probably keep it as is and try it for half a dozen games or so.

demons are no good. i still here people disagree occasionally, but I just do not like them.

raptors: i like em. But i think you need to go big with them or leave em home. Especially if you are going to join your sorcerer to them.

Oblits are good in every combination you can come up with...

In the bigger list I don't particularly care for the chosen, especially without a rhino.

I wouldn't be designing any lists in the chaos book without planning for 5th edition.

I would adjust as follows

1k points

drop 8 demons for 5 more raptors

1500 points

where'd the oblits go? do the demon switch to raptors again drop the chosen for a cult marine unit if it doesn't break your theme too much, and make those havocs oblits again.


Hopefully useful advice. Take with salt, enjoy!

EDIT: let me explain some of the things that I was thinking, tell me if I'm totally crazy or if it might maybe work.

RE: oblits and havocs, I guess i figured three missiles launchers could do around the same work as two lascannons plus have blast templates for all the ork hordes we'll be seeing in 5th edition. I'm assuming the improved blast template rules make it through.

Raptors, wanted to keep the squad small so they can jump from terrain to terrain along the way.

I also thought daemons might work as a scoring unit that drops into the enemy deployment zone and causes trouble without needing a rhino or getting shot up on the way in. There's been some threads about them in the tactics forum and I got the impression that players are coming around on them. Ah well.

Also, it seems like rhinos and predators are smart but I just don't enjoy assembling or painting tanks.

Does any of that make sense or is it just crazy talk?

daemons are a good idea, but not nearly good enough for the points as they used to be. Now they are no more than little pin cushions, to distract the enemy for a short amount of time. like Shep said drop them and take more raptors which can also deepstrike if you want them too, and are way more survivable than the daemons.

also i have to agree with Shep on the Havoc point. I meyself never liked the obliterators, but the more i look at them the more i like the idea of them in general. i say drop the havocs for some oblits, mostly because they can have dual purpose roles int he battle (anti tank, and anti infantry) with no real penalties.

Bastirous666 wrote:daemons are a good idea, but not nearly good enough for the points as they used to be. Now they are no more than little pin cushions, to distract the enemy for a short amount of time. like Shep said drop them and take more raptors which can also deepstrike if you want them too, and are way more survivable than the daemons.

also i have to agree with Shep on the Havoc point. I meyself never liked the obliterators, but the more i look at them the more i like the idea of them in general. i say drop the havocs for some oblits, mostly because they can have dual purpose roles int he battle (anti tank, and anti infantry) with no real penalties.

Oblits I'm definitely gonna do, have a great conversion idea (which Kyoto thought of independently--but not first! Well, probably first.)

The one last annoying concern I have about the daemons is the whole troops as scoring units in 5th. Shouldn't I try and have 3+ scoring units in 1K and 4+ in 1500? That eats up a lot of points in marines. I guess I figured one or two units of daemons could pop out and contest objectives. Maybe T4 Sv5++ guys aren't really suited to that.

The problems with demons is this:

They don't really benefit from the cover rules, since they have a 5+ invulnerable anyway.

They are thus easy to target and shoot dead, and even a tactical squad assaulting them is going to kill them.

I'll never run the demons in a Chaos army. It's just too cheap to upgrade to a cult marine and get a far better deal.

double agreed on stelek's sentiments.

i won't start ranting about my hate for the new daemons, as you can already read my rant about them under dakka discussions.

Advice taken guys, thanks for explaining that. And Bastirous, I hope I'm in some way responsible for your hate-filled daemon rant over in discussions. I like to feel I make an impression on the world around me.

I knocked up some lists:


-CULT VERSION-


1K

Sorceror
jump pack, doombolt, meltabombs, mark of Slaanesh
(can & will be replaced with DP, wings, doombolt for fun/trial purposes)

2 x 8 plague marines
2 plasma guns, powerfist champ

8 noise marines
sonic blasters

2 x 1 Oblit



1500

Sorceror/DP as above

2 x 8 plague marines
2 plasma guns, powerfist champ

2 x 6 noise marines
sonic blasters

8 raptors
icon of khorne, 2 flamers, powerfist

2 x 2 Oblit



-UNDIVIDED-


1000

Sorceror
jump pack, warptime, meltabombs, Mark of Nurgle

2 x 10 marines, icon of chaos glory, 2 plasma guns, powerfist

8 raptors
icon, 2 flamers, powerfist

2 x 1 obliterators




1500

Sorceror
jump pack, warptime, Mark of Nurgle, meltabombs

2 x 10 marines, icon of chaos glory, 2 plasma guns, powerfist

2 x 10 marines, icon, autocannon, plasma gun

8 raptors
icon of chaos glory, 2 flamers, powerfist

2 x 2 obliterators



I also came up with a version that had daemons...but I don't think I'll post that after all this.

Ah, what the hell. I always wanted to paint up some sisters repentia as ghostly undivided daemons, I'll try it once or twice for the halibut. Maybe I'll be inspired to start some threads about how much they suck too.


Sorceror
jump pack, warptime, Mark of Nurgle, meltabombs, personal icon

2 x 10 marines, icon of chaos glory, 2 plasma guns, powerfist

2 x 8 daemons

2 x 8 raptors
icon of chaos glory, 2 flamers, powerfist

3 x 1 obliterators

hissss! did you say daemons. lol, no really if you want to take them do so, i just don't like em'

also if you could really explain to me what use they have in the new codex i would really appreciate that.

anyway i reallt like the second 1500pt list (the one without cult marines) and the first 1000pt list