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Is there any possibility of an update of the tactica for 5th ed.? I imagine that the shift in the rules may make some changes in the utility of different builds and biomorphs.

It's certainly a possibility, but I would definitely want to wait for any 5th ed Tyranid codex conversion FAQ to come out before writing anything up.

Fair enough; I look forward to it.

Would anyone (Yak?) object to some basic mathhammer for 5th ed alternative ellite fexs, now?

Im thinking a Barbed Strangler on an ellite Fex is a very attractive choice now. I have ideas on how to equip it, but Im open to general discussion on the concept of a BS Ellite 'Fex and what it's role and tactical options would be.

I like the Barbed strangler and scything talon elite fex.

It looks nasty asnd has a poweful template weapon that doesnt mind being BS2 anymore. You cannot take any meaingiful gun to back up the barbed strangler for the points, so should take the talon instead.

On that level I equipped both my Carnies with one scything talon, including my 'dakkafex' (lite). I think it is much more fair than the full 8 shot version for non tourney play.

One point I thought was odd in this article was completely unrelated to carnies.

Yakface wrote:
[q]Many creatures in 40K make you pay a penalty if you use them against the role their statistics were built for. Orks, for example, pay 6 points for a statline that includes 2 Attacks. In the case of Shoota Boys, the Ork player is effectively paying for an extra Attack that is unlikely to be of use the whole game. If given the option to remove the extra attack off that Shoota Boy for 1 point a model, the majority of smart gamers would jump at the chance.

What?! No chance! The whole point of shoota boyz is the versatility, they're great shooting and in combat. Blast 'em first, mop up the dregs. I think it's a poor example. May I suggest the example of if guard dropped a point but lost WS or initiative?

Encourages min/maxing, no thanks.

Greebynog wrote:One point I thought was odd in this article was completely unrelated to carnies.

Yakface wrote:
[q]Many creatures in 40K make you pay a penalty if you use them against the role their statistics were built for. Orks, for example, pay 6 points for a statline that includes 2 Attacks. In the case of Shoota Boys, the Ork player is effectively paying for an extra Attack that is unlikely to be of use the whole game. If given the option to remove the extra attack off that Shoota Boy for 1 point a model, the majority of smart gamers would jump at the chance.

What?! No chance! The whole point of shoota boyz is the versatility, they're great shooting and in combat. Blast 'em first, mop up the dregs. I think it's a poor example. May I suggest the example of if guard dropped a point but lost WS or initiative?

The original article referenced the 8 point Shoota boy, which is a pretty big difference from a 6 point shoota boy. I changed it when the new Ork codex came out but you're right, it isn't the best reference to get the point across anymore.


Updating this article for 5th edition is on my radar, but I have so many other things I'm doing right now it's not going to happen anytime soon.

Sorry, my bad. Didn't realise it was 4th ed. I don't think it's top priority anyway!

One thing that you said in the article is that there is a 115pt cap for elite carnifexs. Re-read the codex entry it actuallt states LESS THEN 115 pts, so you are stuck at 114 pts max. This is important as it limits certain combinations like taking 2 twinlinked deathspitters under 5th which would actually be quite worth it for popping both light vehicles as well as close-packed infantry at a greater range then the dakkafex especially as you don't need the BS upgrade from enhanced senses in this edition so much particularly as they are twin-linked already.

Also, a re-discussion on BS and Barbed Stranglers/Deathspitters on a Dakkafex or gun fex would be nice as options discussed. Yes a standard Gunfex is better in most cases but against certain armies deathspitters are useful now, but that's for you to discuss if you expand the article.

Great read otherwise, well done.

Auretious Taak.

P.S. Now I understand what all the 'Fex names reference exactly, cheers.

P.P.S. One opion you didn't look at for a dakkafex was 2 twin-devourers and spine-banks. Evn on BS 2 you sill hit a good chunk of the time and every now and then you get more blasts going.

P.P.P.S. For 5th, I also believe a re-addressing of Spore Cysts is needed, especially as you can run now after you drop the Toxin Mine. You may take a wound 1 in 6 times but that spore mine also gets a 4+ cover save from any units between it and the enemy now also, so on a combat orientated fex running in the shooting phase it may be a viable option.

The article is well written and a lot of the reasoning behind individual biomorph usefulness is sound.

However I totally disagree with most of the conclusions.

In general I would claim that expensive CC carnifexes are never going to be worth it because top players are going to be sufficiently mobile to avoid them. The Carnifex is too slow and too big too be a prime weapon and should be a secondary elelment of a force.

The only real logical carnifex set up is the simplest: five of them with barbed stranglers and scything talons. 113, expendable, pawns of the hive mind, dropping pieplates all over the opponents table quarter.

You are totally WRONG to suggest that a base BS 2 Carnifex should take a venom cannon over a barbed strangler? So that he can GLANCE rhinos rather than scatter on and destroy them??????

If you are going to spend more than 113 on a carni probably the only logical thing is to take 2 barbed stranglers. They aren't twin linked by the way, they are two seperate templates! Let them scatter! they will fill the enemy board space with death and doom! the BS is the real deal not the Cannon! two venom cannon can be handy indeed against the likes of orks, with all those open topped truks and buggies, or Stelek's DE raider spam. So I'm not saying the venom cannon is without its use, but it is not obviously superior. On the contrary it is costly, and in a tournament it may not always be worth those points.

With the no-partial rule for templates in 5th edition and the instant-kill effect of STR 8 on so many things as well as 36" range this is absolutely the best gun for carnis! They are cheap and inaccurate but resilient tanks! unlike the Leman Russ they can't be killed by one hit, so they are great as cheap and mediocre Barbed Strangler artillery.

You don't take six carnis because you need to reserve one elite space for 3 Lictors! These are much more useful for getting at the enemy in CC than carnis will ever be, and they will have the best players pulling their hair out with 6 Initiative, rending claws, STR 6 and the hit and run ability plus the ability to deep strike and assault in the same turn. A Carni will have trouble getting at Fire Prisms, Looters, Hammerheads, Broadsides and Leman Russes, all those opponent heavy fire units, so why waste points trying for the impossible.

Lictors on the other hand can gang bang all those things with abandon. Rear armour! automatic hits on stationery (hiding) units! Use all three if you think one target is going to be tough! Save points on the slow rear-board carnifexes and put those points in something that are tactically flexible and can hit the enemy where you want to hit!

Carnifexes just don't get to be central to anything! the board is too big and who is going to be stupid to walk up into carni range?

I think the article has the wrong focus. carnifexes are only support units, pie plate delivery systems, they should be minimalised in point cost and maximised in numbers.

The real heart of the army will be hive tyrants, tooled up as CC monsters and with WARP BLAST as the tank killer, Lictors, and genestealers running sheltered behind the bigger nids.

A carni is lame in CC as you wisely say, but throw some genestealers in his shadow with feeding tendrils, and the Carnifex can also REROLL attack dice, because units within 2" also benefit from the tendrils!

The carni is ony a support unit. Take five of the cheapest and give them the wide shooting but heavy hitting barbed strangler, discussion over!

Dedicate points and tactics to GOOD units: The Hive tyrants and the Lictors!

It does more justice to the Codex if you recognise that the Hive tyrant is the real Heart of the Hive Mind, and remind the players to build their lists with that in mind.

@Orc Town Grot:

Lictors, really? you DO realize that because they deepstrike into area terrain, that they have to test to take a wound right? and with Counter charge, a lictor attacking the end of a line of infantry now means that that whole line is in combat?

So, now charging into the side of a devastator squad, you are getting EVERYONE hitting you back after you kill a few marines. with only 2 wounds (maybe one if you rolled badly when you deployed) I think the Lictor will be lucky to be alive.

Heck, even a squad of guardsmen have a chance of dealing a wound with that pile in move.

I play Nids, and love Lictors, but in 5th edition, they just dont cut it for 80 points in my books.

Thinking about what you say makes sense.

Lictors are fragile for their cost. They could beat up on hammerheads and such but versus a number of lists they wouldn't be that useful!

Right!

I get long winded and argumentative, sorry about that. I'm re-thinking my own nid list in light of what you said.

Lictors can be handy, but if you take the points from them and use them to build up three Heavy slot fexes to T:7 W:5 AC: 2 regenerating carnifexes the big boys become very resiliant and it forces the enemy to engage them. That can work. Then the enemy will want to outshoot or engage and it gives the rest of the army a chance to do more.

Thanks a lot for the original post.

I disagree with some things but it was a good read and got my thinking happening.